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+--- Thread: Having difficulty with Group 1 and 2 verb conjunctions (/thread-2942.html)
Having difficulty with Group 1 and 2 verb conjunctions - Rujiel - 2009-04-24
Their distinction isn't sticking with me. I've read the difference between the two groups a bunch of times, and I know one of them has a past tense conjunction of -tta instead of -ta, but the description never sticks.
that's not true for all group 1 verbs, though--knowing the past-tense for -mu, -nu, -bu verbs is easy, but distinguishing between group 1 and group 2 for the -iru, -eru cases won't stay fresh in my mind despite reading it over and over. advice?
Having difficulty with Group 1 and 2 verb conjunctions - QuackingShoe - 2009-04-24
*conjugations
Exposure. I don't actually know what verbs are what off the top of my head. I just know how to conjugate what verb. I say aim for that. And that just comes with experience. So keep reading and listening
Edit: If you have any more specific questions, ask. But for example, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_verb_conjugations#Past_tense shows how it's not really all that helpful to divide verbs into two classes anyway. Every verb ending has it's own conjugation pattern. The 1/2 distinction is only really helpful for finding the stem. And not that helpful.
But do reference these rules as you observe the conjugations in action. It's useful to have this reference as you learn. But it becomes second nature pretty quickly (there honestly aren't that many patterns), and you don't need to do anything like making up flashcards for conjugations.
The point is, get used to the patterns by actually seeing them, not by reading about them over and over again.
As it happens, this is the rule for absolutely every other aspect of Japanese as well.
Having difficulty with Group 1 and 2 verb conjunctions - mentat_kgs - 2009-04-24
Just expose yourself to verbs used in context, already conjugated and this will become natural for you.
You should remember that 学校へ行った has something to do with "gone to school", not that 行く = go った = past.
If you do that, your brain will do the dirty tricks for you.
Having difficulty with Group 1 and 2 verb conjunctions - QuackingShoe - 2009-04-24
mentat_kgs Wrote:Just expose yourself to verbs used in context, already conjugated and this will become natural for you.行く is an irregular verb anyway!
You should remember that 学校へ行った has something to do with "gone to school", not that 行く = go った = past.
If you do that, your brain will do the dirty tricks for you.
Having difficulty with Group 1 and 2 verb conjunctions - Teskal - 2009-04-24
Rules for the TYPE 1 Verbs (Godan-Verbs)
Put first the syllables in a spreadsheet
An sort it in the following way:
TA SA KA A
CHI SHI KI I
TSU SU KU U
TE SE KE E
TO SO KO O
...and so on!
A Kawanai (not buy)
I Kaimasu (buy), Kaitai (want buy), Kaimasen (not), usw.
U Kau (buy)
E Kae (BUY!)
O kaou (let us buy)
KA kakanai
KI kakimasu, kakitai,...
KU kaku
KE kake
KO kakou
SA hanasanai
SHI hanashimasu, Hanashitai
SU Hanasu
SE hanase
SO hanasou
TA Matanai
CHI machimasu
TSU matsu
TE mate
TO matou
usw.
###############
###############
Rules for Te-Confunction (present & future) and TA-Form (past) it is little complicated, you should learn it as a Song:
utsurutte
numubunde
kuite guide
sushite
kuru kite
suru shite
iku itte
You can find songs for it in the Internet, this song will help you to memorize how to use the TE or TA conjugation
You can use it only for Godan Verbs (Type 1)
I will explain the first line:
u tsu ru -tte
For all Verbs ending with U, TSU or RU, remove the last syllable (u, tsu or ru) and put tte behind the verb (or tta vor past)
ka-u -> ka-tte
ma-tsu -> ma-tte
kae-ru -> kae-tte
With the lines "nu mu bu -nde" and "ku -ite gu -ide" and "su -shite" all the same
aru-ku -> aru-ite
yomu -> yonde
yobu -> yonde
hanasu -> hanashite
With the last 3 lines is
kuru -> kite
suru -> shite
iku -> itte"
#######
#######
Not all ERU and IRU Ending verbs are Ichidan (TYPE 2)
Remove only RU and add -nai, -masu, -tai, masen, -mashita, -TE, -TA
I hope it helps, my english is not my native language.
Having difficulty with Group 1 and 2 verb conjunctions - Raichu - 2009-04-24
Basically you just need to memorize all the rules and give yourself lots and lots of practice at reading, writing, listening and speaking until they become second nature. Eventually they will.
The only hitch is that sometimes you can't tell which type of verb it is if it ends in -iru or -eru. In fact there are some homophones that are in different classes, e.g. いる => います vs いる => いります.
Having difficulty with Group 1 and 2 verb conjunctions - mattyjaddy - 2009-04-24
I'm with QuackingShoe and mentat_kgs. Do what they say. Just read a lot.
Like QuackingShoe said, it's good to read about these verbs so you know what to look for when reading/listening, but trying to memorize them as Teskal has suggested just gives you a crutch that you eventually don't want to rely on. Can you imagine having to pull out a spreadsheet or singing a song everytime you need to change verb forms in the midst of a conversation? Just skip that crutch step and get right to reading. Then again, Teskal's English seems pretty good, so perhaps what he described worked for him and could work for you. I just think you can get more out of your time if it's spent reading.
It does take some work though. And you may have several times when you're reading that you have to check back in a grammar book to confirm what form you're reading. But it's just part of helping your brain get the input it needs. I found that children's picture books were filled with the -te form. That's how the -te form became so easy for me. I had to revert to the dictionary form to look up what I was reading.
Good luck.
Having difficulty with Group 1 and 2 verb conjunctions - Jarvik7 - 2009-04-24
Raichu Wrote:Basically you just need to memorize all the rules and give yourself lots and lots of practice at reading, writing, listening and speaking until they become second nature. Eventually they will.There is a way to know if you study some classical Japanese
The only hitch is that sometimes you can't tell which type of verb it is if it ends in -iru or -eru. In fact there are some homophones that are in different classes, e.g. いる => います vs いる => いります.
いる→います doesn't infact end in いる, it's a wiru verb (kami ichidan category, like 見る).
居る（ヰル)
As far as past tense being depending on each verb ending, it's not entirely true. Again with some classical background it becomes apparent. They all have the same conjugation (for godan verbs and suru/kuru), but they have 音便, which is sound dependent, applied afterwards.
泳ぐ→泳いだ (actually 泳ぎた)
行く→行った (actually 行きた)
読む→読んだ (actually 読みた)
呼ぶ→呼んだ (actually 呼びた)
書く→書いた (actually 書きた)
死ぬ→死んだ (actually 死にた)
す→した (the traditional dictionary form of する is す)
く→きた (the traditional dictionary form of くる is く)
etc
Every single one just changes the the u to an i in the last mora. In other words, they are all just the 連用形 (aka pre-masu form) + た. て form is the same thing. They are just aren't written to match the grammar anymore due to an ill-fated attempt to make writing match pronunciation after WW2. The problem is that pronunciation is a moving target, as seen in 雰囲気 and many words with U or I vowels in them (です、して、etc).
While I don't recommend actually learning modern Japanese based on this, it comes in useful if you are having trouble remembering what is what.
There is no such thing as a group 1 or 2 verb imo and it's stupid terminology invented by English language textbooks. 要る is a godan verb (yodan in classical). The go is 五 and it means that in conjugation it uses all 5 vowels.
ex: 聞く (五段)
kikanai
kikimasu
kiku
kikeba
kikou
Group 1/2 gives no information about the group or how it's different from the other one. The only reason it was made is so people wouldn't wonder what was between 1dan and 5dan</rant>
Having difficulty with Group 1 and 2 verb conjunctions - Teskal - 2009-04-24
mattyjaddy Wrote:Like QuackingShoe said, it's good to read about these verbs so you know what to look for when reading/listening, but trying to memorize them as Teskal has suggested just gives you a crutch that you eventually don't want to rely on. Can you imagine having to pull out a spreadsheet or singing a song everytime you need to change verb forms in the midst of a conversation? Just skip that crutch step and get right to reading. Then again, Teskal's English seems pretty good, so perhaps what he described worked for him and could work for you. I just think you can get more out of your time if it's spent reading.Arrgh, there is no real memorising of the spreadsheet necessary and it make no sense to print it out. Sorry, I didn't mentioned it.
This crutch is something like the Heisigsystem a 'crutch for the beginning'. For the first time, to see how the system works. In a midst of a conversation you are on another japanese skill level! And it seems that you are on a higher level.
No, after looking how the system works, you need only
a
i
u
e
o.
And you need it only the first times, few weeks or months. Or if you have a unkown Verb.
With this system you can conjugate at once, back and forward.
arukanai -> aruku
tabenai -> taberu (it is only '-nai' is no 'a-nai' so it is ichidan)
sutemasu -> suteru (it is only '-masu', there is no 'i-masu')
kirimasen -> kiru
kimasen -> kiru (only little dangerous, because i-masu and following)
kimasen -> kuru (you must see the context of the sentence)
Only some conjugations are missing in my explanation, but they work with the same system.
What I mean is, it make no sense to learn all these basic confugations one after another. Most Textbooks do it and I think it is not very productive. If you see behind the conjugation system, it is a lot of easier.
Same with the TE- and TA-Conjugation. Most of the time I don't need it anymore, but if I have an unknown word, it is still helpful.
Again, if you can talk or read fluently you are on a higher level when you don't need this system anymore.
Having difficulty with Group 1 and 2 verb conjunctions - mentat_kgs - 2009-04-24
I don't know about you guys, but I can conjugate all these verbs just fine and never payed attention to these rules.
I only became aware of verb classes when discussing it later here in this forum.
About 行く being irregular, wouldn't it be fairer to call the other verbs irregular?
行く is so frequent that it should be the rule, not otherwise! (lol)
Having difficulty with Group 1 and 2 verb conjunctions - Jarvik7 - 2009-04-25
mentat_kgs Wrote:I don't know about you guys, but I can conjugate all these verbs just fine and never payed attention to these rules.Actually the most frequently used words in languages usually become the most irregular (irregularity is a result of language drift. Language that stays in books and not casual speech doesn't drift much). See ta & te for the best examples of that. Onbin everywhere.
I only became aware of verb classes when discussing it later here in this forum.
About 行く being irregular, wouldn't it be fairer to call the other verbs irregular?
行く is so frequent that it should be the rule, not otherwise! (lol)
I learned all of these details after the fact through studying Japanese linguistics and classical Japanese because I wasn't satisfied with the bad & inconsistent explanations of grammar that most English texts offer. Like I said in my post, learning from the ground up is probably not the best idea cause it's not how language is used in modern times (most of the time anyways) It is a requirement if you want to understand the language instead of merely use it though (know the whys and not just the whats). Of course when speaking, no one thinks of any of this though.
Having difficulty with Group 1 and 2 verb conjunctions - mentat_kgs - 2009-04-25
I was not criticizing you. I found your post really interesting.
Your historical view of grammar is very enlightening.
Today my thoughts were drifting and I got to the following place:
Maybe I'm doing a lot of grammar specific practice.
How? By "unconjugating".
I see conjugated verbs everywhere and I have to "unconjugate" them to check the dictionary. So maybe, I'm a bit of an hypocrite (you know, being a forget grammar evangelist).
Having difficulty with Group 1 and 2 verb conjunctions - QuackingShoe - 2009-04-25
I like mattejady's comment and mentat's followup on backward conjugating through normal reading. Honestly, that's about all the practice you'll ever need.
Jarvik7, I do appreciate all the old stuff and find it rather interesting (while I'd picked up on this concept intuitively, I'd never heard it expressed explicitly, so it's nice to hear), it's just that, for modern purposes, whether they're all technically the same thing or not, you still need to learn the euphonic change for each verb ending, so it all amounts to the same thing; that is, a memorization of each ending's conjugation path separately. I agree it's a useful thing to keep in mind though.
I've always found the irregularity of the most common parts of language really interesting. 'go' and 'come' are pretty much irregular in every language, aren't they? Plus words like 'good'. (good, better, well, etc. いい,よく,よさそう, etc) And in English, I believe it's at least the first 20 verbs on the word frequency list that are all irregular (how regular!), isn't it?
What a pain for foreigners
Your first exposure to the language makes it seem completely nonsensical.
Having difficulty with Group 1 and 2 verb conjunctions - Tobberoth - 2009-04-25
Really interesting post Jarvik7, I thank you for it
I consider myself a linguist so while I want to be able to speak a language fluently, I want to understand it as well. Since I've never studied any classical Japanese myself, it was good to hear some information about it
Having difficulty with Group 1 and 2 verb conjunctions - Rujiel - 2009-04-29
Teskal Wrote:No, after looking how the system works, you need onlySorry, but I have no idea what you're doing here or what that vowel order has to do with the verb transformations.
a
i
u
e
o.
And you need it only the first times, few weeks or months. Or if you have a unkown Verb.
With this system you can conjugate at once, back and forward.
arukanai -> aruku
tabenai -> taberu (it is only '-nai' is no 'a-nai' so it is ichidan)
sutemasu -> suteru (it is only '-masu', there is no 'i-masu')
kirimasen -> kiru
kimasen -> kiru (only little dangerous, because i-masu and following)
kimasen -> kuru (you must see the context of the sentence)
Having difficulty with Group 1 and 2 verb conjunctions - Tobberoth - 2009-04-29
Rujiel Wrote:Sorry, but I have no idea what you're doing here or what that vowel order has to do with the verb transformations.The last syllable changes according to the scheme.
a - ka - ikanai
i - ki - ikitai
u - ku - iku
e - ke - ike!
o - ko - ikou
That's the logic behind godan changes.