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How to not waste my time with a language Partner? - koyota - 2009-04-06
So I live in Japan and have a language partner(due to the fact I live out in the sticks and work extremely weird hours at horrible English teaching job, thus I actually don't have much chance to use my Japanese).
The problem is I meet with her two times a week for 90 minutes and always feel like I just wasted 1500yen and 90 minutes of my time(plus an hour of travel time) that could have been better spent Reading things/ reviewing sentences.
While I know all the grammar rules can pass them on a test and write them(Passed jlpt2 barely with the listening part killing me), I can't really use them in real time in a conversation, so what generally happens is for 90 minutes a really nice old lady talks to herself while I respond in one one words replys.
Since I have to make the lesson plans for our meetings, does anyone have any ideas on what I can do to make it feel like I'm not completely wasting my time?
How to not waste my time with a language Partner? - Hashiriya - 2009-04-06
that sounds like conversations that I have with my Japanese wife... I can understand what she says in Japanese just fine usually but I have difficulty coming up with replies... I can make simple replies no problem though... I'm sure it's just something I need more practice with...
How to not waste my time with a language Partner? - squeaky_lill_mk - 2009-04-06
Hi koyota,
I have always found it challenging to build up my active vocabulary and develop adequate speaking skills. So this is what I suggest:
Ask the lady to tell you about something. While listening to her, pay attention to the words she uses. Then repeat the story to her, making use of the words you've made a mental note of. Ask her to stop and correct you whenever you make a mistake, and if you don't see what's wrong with the sentence, write down what you wanted to say (in English) and her correction (you can try and look up the relevant grammar rules at home).
How to not waste my time with a language Partner? - jbudding - 2009-04-06
I had a similar experience with a native speaker "tutor" I hired. I was paying $30 USD for 3 hours (I don't live in Japan), our sessions were also 90 minutes twice a week and I had a 45 minute drive each way.
My language partner was not a teacher and had no ideas so after a few very unproductive seesions, I asked her to record herself reading some Japanese written material that I had and was interested in, and to help me write down the furigana for the kanjis, and also to help me understand the meaning (her English was not very good but good enough for this, sort of.) I could later listen to her voice on my iPod while I read the material at the same time.
Also, she was very good at finding mistakes in my own writing (I was transcribing into kanji and hiragana material from some easy dialogs and other material I had in romaji). Finally, I asked her to help me with my penmanship. She was able to write beautifully with a brush and it was fun and really helped me to have her show me how to write kanji characters by doing it herself.
Unfortunately, just after we started to get things going, she had to move away and a subsequent partner was not as good and so I stopped. I think the value in the arrangement was more in how much it motivated me to study and prepare material for our sessions as well as the time I spent listening to her recordings and reading along with the material she had read aloud afterwards. Now I am working alone again and it is very slow going and harder to stay motivated. I think I will look for another partner soon.
How to not waste my time with a language Partner? - Codexus - 2009-04-06
Do you do things like writing a diary or commenting on online forums in Japanese?
I think it's a natural stepping stone to start expressing yourself in writing, when you have the time to carefully consider your words, and research how to best say something. Then it becomes more natural to reuse those patterns in spoken conversation.
How to not waste my time with a language Partner? - mentat_kgs - 2009-04-06
What about a language partner that likes to go out to eat ice cream, hot dogs, or watch a movie?
How to not waste my time with a language Partner? - masaman - 2009-04-06
You can probably set topics/targets for each session like "Today, I am going to tell her about this terrible student and that awesome restaurant" and prepare for them before hand. You don't have to write down exactly what you are going to say and it doesn't even have to be 100% correct but maybe you can rehearse the conversation in your head and take a mental note while you are on a train or something?
Personally, I would forget about grammar and just try to speak as much as possible. It might make you gibber nonsense but you'll improve and you are paying her to listen to it
How to not waste my time with a language Partner? - squeaky_lill_mk - 2009-04-06
By the way, about wasting time and money. I currently live in a university town (out of 75 thousand people, 25 thousand are students, and there are thousands of uni professors and people working in numerous institutes and research centers here), and there's this thing which is really popular here. It's called 'tandem-partnership'. Most of people who learn a foreign language eventually find a 'tandem-partner'.
Gist: you are a native speaker of English and want to learn Japanese, and somewhere out there there is a Japanese person who wants to learn English. There will be a couple of such people living in the same street as you, surely. You hang out a notice in your street and find them. Together with this person you arrange time slots suitable for both of you. You get a Japanese tutor for free, but you also have to help them with English free of charge (usually people meet for 2 hours and do 1 hour of one language, and 1 hour of the other). Thus, you save money and travel time.
How to not waste my time with a language Partner? - bodhisamaya - 2009-04-06
Do video chatting online with Japanese people you have common interests with. Why commute anywhere?
How to not waste my time with a language Partner? - mentat_kgs - 2009-04-06
And no ice cream?
How to not waste my time with a language Partner? - wccrawford - 2009-04-06
squeaky_lill_mk Wrote:Hi koyota,I think this is a very good idea.
I have always found it challenging to build up my active vocabulary and develop adequate speaking skills. So this is what I suggest:
Ask the lady to tell you about something. While listening to her, pay attention to the words she uses. Then repeat the story to her, making use of the words you've made a mental note of. Ask her to stop and correct you whenever you make a mistake, and if you don't see what's wrong with the sentence, write down what you wanted to say (in English) and her correction (you can try and look up the relevant grammar rules at home).
Another idea is to roleplay various normal situations... Ordering at a restaurant, booking a room at a hotel, buying a ticket for a movie, renting a car... Anything normal that will generally take more than 2-3 sentences. The more, the better. If they're too short, ask relevant questions like what color of car is available, or how the steak tastes tonight.
Another option is to find a tutor that doesn't make you create the lessons... I wasn't even aware that such a plan existed. It seems totally backwards... I mean, if you KNOW what you want to learn, you could find info on it yourself. As a native, the teacher should be telling you what you need to know... Right?
How to not waste my time with a language Partner? - mattyjaddy - 2009-04-07
Koyota,
I'd first just like to say, if you are understanding more than your able to say, then you are normal. Your ability to understand will always outpace your ability to produce. Just keep working. As one progresses, so does the other.
The keys to language acquisition are comprehensible input (CI) and repetition. Really, repetition is just a way to get CI, so CI is the biggest part. You should ask that your language partner speak in such a way that you understand 100% (minimum 90) of what she says. One of the easiest ways to get this is for her to be repetitive with what she says. Reusing vocabulary and grammatical elements until you understand them with no struggle. It's when this CI is getting in your head with no struggle that the real acquisition to fluency is happening.
Repetition sounds boring, but it doesn't have to be. You might check out TPRS online, particularly the parts on circling. Circling is a questioning style particular to the TPRS method that incorporates repetition in an interesting way. The most basic form starts with a basic sentence. A statement about something. Then it is followed by a series of questions that start by just checking comprehension. Then the questions can start eliciting new details. When new details are added they are incorporated into the original statement. When the sentence is full or the idea is complete, you move on to the next simple statement.
A concrete example:
The girl is riding her bike. (There are 3 parts to this sentence: the girl, is riding, her bike. So first your partner should circle each part.)
Is the girl riding her bike? Is the girl or the dog riding her bike? Is the dog riding her bike? Who is riding her bike?
Is the girl riding her bike? Is the girl riding her bike or eating her bike? Is the girl eating her bike? What is the girl doing with her bike?
Is the girl riding her bike? Is the girl riding her bike or her pogo stick? Is the girl riding her pogo stick? What is the girl riding?
(The basic pattern is yes/no with yes response, either/or, yes/no with no response, WWWWH question. Of course, this would be boring and too predictable so mixing it up is a good idea.)
(Then your partner can ask questions for new details.)
What's the girl's name? ... Susan is riding her bike.
How tall is the girl? ... Susan, the 6 foot girl, is riding her bike.
What color is her bike? .... Susan, the 6 foot girl, is riding her blue bike.
How big is the bike? ... Susan, the 6 foot girl, is riding her miniscule blue bike.
Where is she riding her bike? ... Susan, the 6 foot girl, is riding her miniscule blue bike down the street.
What time is it?... Susan, the 6 foot girl, is riding her miniscule blue bike down the street at midnight.
Why?... Susan, the 6 foot girl, is riding her miniscule blue bike down the street at midnight because she ...
The S in TPRS stands for storytelling. So the example above would likely progress into a story about Susan and why she is riding her bike and what she wants and her attempt to get it. The details and story are mainly to add interest. They just help keep student paying attention so they hear the repetitions of the main elements of the sentences. By the end of the first question cycle above, you will have heard the basic parts about 12 times each. If you can train your partner to repeat the sentence everytime you answer the question and use the negative of the incorrect response where applicable, you'll be hearing the basic parts closer to 50 times. (Here's how to get use the negative of the incorrect response: T-Is the girl riding her bike or eating her bike? S-Riding her bike. T-Good, she's riding her bike. She's not eating her bike. She is riding it.) Then when you add in the detail questions and the restating of the sentence with the new elements, you've got about 70 or 80 repetitions of the basic elements.
If you can train your partner in using repetition like this, you don't have to stick with make-believe stories. You can use current or historical events, TV shows, what happened during her or your day, etc. Anything that would be worth asking questions about and that can be simplified to a basic sentence (America elected a new president. I taught 10 classes today. Etc. From there the sentences can grow and details can be added. The country of America recently elected a new Democrat president who is very young and popular. I, the overworked English teacher, taught 10 mind-numbingly boring classes today on about 2 hours of sleep and with no advanced notice of the last 5 classes. Etc.). It's just that you want to hear all the grammar and vocab repeated lots and lots. So it won't sound like a normal conversation. It should sound like a conversation with someone who has severe short-term memory problems and needs any new information to be constantly incorporated with the old information. And if you think about it, lacking proficiency in a language is sort of like a severe short-term memory problem; you might be able to hear one word and then be able to look it up if needed, but as soon as those words come at you in sequence, the first ones fly out of your memory to make room for the next ones. By the end, you've forgotten all but the last word. So you need slow, clear repetition with new information added slowly.
I tried to get my tutor to do this with me, but it didn't work out. But since you have a language partner who asks you to create the lesson, then perhaps she will be more open to trying this. It does take training though. And to make it more interesting, your partner will need to be a bit creative in order to add details that are interesting, while staying at your level of proficiency in terms of grammar and vocabulary--the details should not themselves become the focus of the sentences, requiring much repetition for you to remember them. They should be made mostly of grammar you already know. Or if she adds it and you later forget it, then just don't worry about keeping it in the sentence.
Whatever you choose to do, good luck. And remember, comprehension far outpaces production.
How to not waste my time with a language Partner? - Serge - 2009-04-07
Not to reflect on the complex circumstances of the original poster, but - in Tokyo - I'm puzzled each time I see normal-looking guys talking in passable Japanese to normal-looking girls over some books at a Starbucks table and giving them money at the end of that interaction. I mean: surely, there is a way to learn while doing fun things that one actually enjoys doing anyway with Japanese friends and no money exchange involved?!.. Or is that too Khazumoto-esque a statement?..
How to not waste my time with a language Partner? - Diana - 2009-04-07
if you live in the sticks, shouldn't there be a whole HOST of available language partners? I'm guessing nobody speaks english there, so why do you have to travel AND pay 1500 for it? How awful.
I lived in Saga next to a rice field and my conversation opportunities were plentiful. Jiichans, bachans, high school boys
Why are you paying and traveling just to talk to people, esp. in the country? At least in my experience, city folk aren't so interested in gaijin, so the country peeps should be throwing themselves at you...
How to not waste my time with a language Partner? - Tzadeck - 2009-04-07
Diana Wrote:if you live in the sticks, shouldn't there be a whole HOST of available language partners? I'm guessing nobody speaks english there, so why do you have to travel AND pay 1500 for it? How awful.It really depends I think. I live in the uber sticks--the OMFG-I-have-an-outhouse sticks. Anyway, if there is anyone who wants a language partner here, certainly I've never found out about it! If you're far enough into the sticks it can be pretty hard to meet people. My town has a grocery store and one restaurant so those are about the two public places to go here. I also live on a street with only one other house, and then there's not much for a long way. In other words, it's not like I have a whole mess of neighbors to talk to. So, I can relate to the original poster in that it can be hard in certain situations.
I lived in Saga next to a rice field and my conversation opportunities were plentiful. Jiichans, bachans, high school boys
On the upside, I'm only just outside of Kyoto city.
How to not waste my time with a language Partner? - danieldesu - 2009-04-07
mattyjaddy,
At a recent Japanese learner's meeting in my area, I did something similar to this, and people really seemed to enjoy it. It was a little difficult because everybody's level was a little different, but I think each person got something out of it, because I was being very repetitious and asking many questions about the things I was saying. It was exhausting for me, but fun too. Plus I'm not a native Japanese speaker, so there was that down side. I think it would work really well in a one on one situation.
How to not waste my time with a language Partner? - kazelee - 2009-04-07
mentat_kgs Wrote:What about a language partner that likes to go out to eat ice cream, hot dogs, or watch a movie?LOL. These made my day...erm night.
...
...
And no ice cream?
I've been using the Lang-8 for a while now. I haven't posted much, but it helps in the expression.
How to not waste my time with a language Partner? - Thora - 2009-04-08
Serge Wrote:...I'm puzzled each time I see normal-looking guys talking in passable Japanese to normal-looking girls over some books at a Starbucks table and giving them money at the end of that interaction. I mean: surely, there is a way to learn while doing fun things that one actually enjoys doing anyway with Japanese friends and no money exchange involved?!.. .Ideally we have both friends and a tutor/language partner. Keeping the study and play roles separate is sometimes wise. Particularly if we want to focus on certain material - and keep our friends! But I know what you're describing. I suspect the language exchange/lesson is just a pretense to meet new girls/guys for some people. :-)
How to not waste my time with a language Partner? - mentat_kgs - 2009-04-08
Thanks kazelee.
Am I the only person that lives in a country where you ask a room full of people to go to a bar and drink some beer, everyone accepts?
Girls in Japan don't like ice cream?
People won't go to the movies if they have nothing else to do?
My idea of Japan must be certainly different from reality. =/
How to not waste my time with a language Partner? - Tzadeck - 2009-04-08
mentat_kgs Wrote:Girls in Japan don't like ice cream?Wow, you really haven't been in Japan. If you even mention ice cream to girls here they slit your throat with the razor blades hidden in their fans.
They also wear kimono and stuff.
How to not waste my time with a language Partner? - aaronvanvalen - 2009-04-08
Get someone your age and chill with them.
Doesn't cost money (other than renting films and such, eating ice cream whtvr), you talk about stuff you actually wanna know, you learn the words you need to learn for making your japanese sounds normal, what more do you want? When I was in japan I didn't have actual language parners, but I had a lot of Japanese friends, it really helped my Japanese like crazy.
How to not waste my time with a language Partner? - EuPcsl - 2009-04-08
mentat_kgs Wrote:Am I the only person that lives in a country where you ask a room full of people to go to a bar and drink some beer, everyone accepts?No, because I live in Spain and I know what you're talking about, of course
.
How to not waste my time with a language Partner? - mentat_kgs - 2009-04-08
Ow yeah babe, Spain looks like a great country.
How to not waste my time with a language Partner? - welldone101 - 2009-04-08
mentat_kgs Wrote:Am I the only person that lives in a country where you ask a room full of people to go to a bar and drink some beer, everyone accepts?I pay for a language conversation partner.
Girls in Japan don't like ice cream?
People won't go to the movies if they have nothing else to do?
My idea of Japan must be certainly different from reality. =/
I'm married so girl dates are out of the question, although I have several female friends. I can't just run out to a bar after work because of family obligations. When I do go out to a bar I'd prefer not to be completely doused in second hand smoke, so no, never go to bars except where it's banned. Movies cost money, plus arranging time to go, plus you can't talk during a movie. Hiring somebody is just WAY more efficient. Efficient money wise, time wise, planning/investment wise. For people with a cramped schedule and an social life that hangs pretty heavily on 2 people with differing schedules planning things together it's the best option.