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Help with a few sentences - tharvey - 2009-04-01
Hello everyone! I am pretty new to all of this, I've been studying Japanese for a few months now (since Christmas). I try to use a wide variety of resources ~ learning the kanji, sentences from a Japanese dictionary, Tae Kim, listening to Japanese podcast & television, etc.
Hopefully you can help answer some questions I've had about a few of the sentences I've been studying. And feel free to post any sentences you've been wondering about, so this post can help us all out a little.
1) もう いっぽ も あるけない くらい つかれて しまいました。
Why is this あるけない instead of あるかない? Is this just a conjugation I haven't learned yet, or a typo? I've tried finding more information online with no luck.
2) わたし を たすけて ください！
ぼく を さがさないで ください。
わたし の ねこ を とらないで。
Why do these use an を instead of が?
Also, I'm assuming I can substitute わたし for ぼく? (being female and all)
3) わたし は あに に おかね を まらいました。
わたし は ともだち から てがみ を もらいました。
Are these just two ways to say the same kind of thing?
Or is there a reason to use one over the other (から vs. に)?
Help with a few sentences - Tobberoth - 2009-04-01
1) Arukenai is a conjugation you do not know. arukeru - to be able to walk. arukenai to be unable to walk.
2) wo is used for objects. watashi wo tasukete kudasai = please save me. boku wo sagasanaide kudasai = please don't search for me. watashi no neko wo toranaide = don't take my cat.
3) The first sentence is incorrect, maraimasu isn't a real word. If it's a typo and moraimashita is intended, then yes, kara and ni can be used interchangeably in that situation.
And no, females do not use "boku", it's a word used by young men.
Help with a few sentences - tharvey - 2009-04-01
Ah, yes, I meant to say that I was assuming I could switch and use わたし instead of using ぼく, since I'm female (and the sentence would be the same).
You are correct, the まらいました was a typo, so that makes perfect sense.
Thank you also for the info on #1.
I think you've cleared up my problem with the を in #2, which was more of a confusion with the grammar terminology (which wasn't really taught to us in school). I just needed to read it all typed out for it to click. I had it in my head that the subject would be the person/animal doing an action, and the object would be an inanimate thing that the verb acts upon, which is why I didn't understand the usage of を for a living thing. But looking at it again it makes sense, the un-stated "you" would be the subject. If I used "わたし の ねこ が" the cat would have to be doing something, which it isn't. (And let's face it, they seldom do anything)
Thank you so much for all of the help!
Help with a few sentences - Tobberoth - 2009-04-01
tharvey Wrote:But looking at it again it makes sense, the un-stated "you" would be the subject. If I used "わたし の ねこ が" the cat would have to be doing something, which it isn't. (And let's face it, they seldom do anything)That's exactly right
Help with a few sentences - fluxcapacitor - 2009-04-01
Just to add to #3, there is a reason to use から over に, but not based on your examples.
From Japanese Sentence Patterns for Effective Communication:
Quote:In this pattern the indirect object (the giver) is marked by the particle ni or kara. However, if the giver is an impersonal institution, kara must be used.Example from the book:
Robin received a scholarship from the university.
ロビンは大学から奨学金をもらった。
ロビン は だいがく から しょうがくきん を もらった。
Help with a few sentences - mentat_kgs - 2009-04-01
There is not much reason to change the sentence to わたし. Regardless if you are male or female you must learn the usage of both the female and male forms.
The "feeling" of the Japanese particles comes with time. Don't try to nail it all from the beginning. Take it easy.
Help with a few sentences - Asriel - 2009-04-01
mentat_kgs Wrote:There is not much reason to change the sentence to わたし. Regardless if you are male or female you must learn the usage of both the female and male forms.Yeah, she has to learn both of them, but when she's using it, she probably wouldn't want to use ぼく. First person nouns are easy to get used to hearing or reading, and it's harder to change to something else once you get accustomed to using one.
I would say (at least at this level) she stick with わたし
Help with a few sentences - mentat_kgs - 2009-04-02
But just reading it won't create this addiction. And it's not that girl's can't ever address themselves as boku. Preciser evaluation requires deeper learning.
Help with a few sentences - Tobberoth - 2009-04-02
mentat_kgs Wrote:But just reading it won't create this addiction. And it's not that girl's can't ever address themselves as boku. Preciser evaluation requires deeper learning.Yep, there's no problem in having it in the cards as long as she knows she shouldn't use it. Just like how there's tons of sentences ending in わ on iKnow even though only girls use it.
Help with a few sentences - Asriel - 2009-04-02
Alright, I really have no problem with her using ぼく in her cards. Now that you mention it, I do have ~わ cards in my deck.
I was just saying that she doesn't seem to be very far down the line in her studies, and she might want to stick with わたし.
Help with a few sentences - mentat_kgs - 2009-04-02
Btw, 〜わ can also be used by men not contamined by the yellow fever. It has its specific usages.
Help with a few sentences - Tobberoth - 2009-04-02
mentat_kgs Wrote:Btw, 〜わ can also be used by men not contamined by the yellow fever. It has its specific usages.Yeah. Like indicating you're homosexual. Or if you dress up as a girl and want to play the role. Seriously, there might be some situation where a guy would use わ but after living in Japan for a year, after reading several manga, after watching tons of anime... i've never once encountered it. Unlike women using 僕 which is quite common in songs. (I know that わ is used by males in other places than Tokyo though, Osaka for example, so it's definitely not as simple as "anyone who uses わ is a girl or a homo". Still, one should be extremely careful about ever using it).
Help with a few sentences - yukamina - 2009-04-02
Lately I see ~わ used by men everywhere(everywhere being anime and fiction). Not in a feminine way. It seems to be used to inform... I'm not really keen on figuring out what things mean by exposure alone, though.
Help with a few sentences - Asriel - 2009-04-02
It seems this thread has taken a turn into gender specific language...
I've always been told that this was something that you shouldn't really "mess with" until you're more advanced -- not necessarily an "advanced student," but at least at a point where you don't get used to using wrong language in the wrong situation.
for example, you don't want to learn all your Japanese from manga, end end up calling your boss てめえ. Not necessarily gender specific, but a blunder nonetheless
Help with a few sentences - mentat_kgs - 2009-04-02
@Tobberoth
You're obviously misinformed.
It is definetly feminine in 東京弁, but, just for instance, in 大阪弁 it seems pretty normal.
But even in 東京弁 it has its uses.
Help with a few sentences - Tobberoth - 2009-04-02
mentat_kgs Wrote:@TobberothIf I'm so misinformed, please inform me. Instead of saying that it has its uses, give some examples. If you can't, I'm going to assume you're the one who is misinformed.
You're obviously misinformed.
It is definetly feminine in 東京弁, but, just for instance, in 大阪弁 it seems pretty normal.
But even in 東京弁 it has its uses.
"just for instance" isn't really needed since I myself gave Osaka as an example of where わ isn't considered as feminine.
Help with a few sentences - julz6453 - 2009-04-02
It is true that you can get some odd looks if you're a guy and use わたし. I've seen this quite a few times in dramas - even one that was set in 大阪.
However, other cases I've heard わたし used by men in very formal situations, including my Japanese friend's dad when he was just getting to know me.
Help with a few sentences - Tobberoth - 2009-04-02
julz6453 Wrote:It is true that you can get some odd looks if you're a guy and use わたし. I've seen this quite a few times in dramas - even one that was set in 大阪.We're not talking about わたし, わたし is 100% gender neutral. We are talking about the particle わ which is used to end sentences. It's used, mainly be females (especially in the tokyo region where it's more or less 100% feminine) to indicate emotion. Such as:
However, other cases I've heard わたし used by men in very formal situations, including my Japanese friend's dad when he was just getting to know me.
夕飯もう食べたわ。
Help with a few sentences - yukamina - 2009-04-02
I hear it at 1:00 here
And at 0:20 here
Maybe I'm wrong but...
Help with a few sentences - QuackingShoe - 2009-04-02
The first is な, and the second, the speaker isn't speaking in the standard dialect.
Help with a few sentences - Asriel - 2009-04-02
It has something to do with intonation. I wouldn't say it's used all the time, but apparently the feminine わ has a rising intonation, whereas the masculine has a falling.
Help with a few sentences - Asriel - 2009-04-02
QuackingShoe Wrote:The first is な,No, just wait further on.
Quote:俺、先に教室戻るわIt's definitely a わ
Help with a few sentences - mentat_kgs - 2009-04-02
~わ is used in 1 to 1 conversations with a member of the opposite sex of the right age.
Also old people use it when talking with younger ones.
http://komachi.yomiuri.co.jp/t/2009/0226/227234.htm?g=01
about わたし, beware not to mix it with あたし, that is completely different.
Help with a few sentences - Tobberoth - 2009-04-03
mentat_kgs Wrote:~わ is used in 1 to 1 conversations with a member of the opposite sex of the right age.Seems that pretty much everyone in that link claims it's a Nagoyan and Hokkaidoian dialect thing. Maybe I missed some post which defined Tokyoian use, if so please point it out to me.
Also old people use it when talking with younger ones.
http://komachi.yomiuri.co.jp/t/2009/0226/227234.htm?g=01
about わたし, beware not to mix it with あたし, that is completely different.
Help with a few sentences - albion - 2009-04-03
I've been reading 北斗の拳 lately, which has a lot of burly men using わ. They don't seem to be using dialects in particular, beyond a lot of stuff like 「倒せん！ 勝てん！」.
Although I don't really know a lot about dialects in Nagoya or Hokkaidou.
シン
「そんな老いぼれのたわごとなどとうに忘れたわ！！」 (smashes a tombstone)
男
「このおれ様はな かつて地下組織の中で発展したデスバトルの不敗のチャンプだった男！！
その硬そうな頭ぶっつぶしてやるわ――っ！！」 (smashes a stone pillar over some guy's head)
牙一族
「自分から飛びこんでくるとは こんな大バカ野郎初めてみたわ！！」
Most of the speech seems pretty standard, and I don't think it's meant to be implying anything about their sexual preference.
I vaguely remember reading something like what Asriel mentioned, about how the male 'wa' has a falling intonation rather than the female rising intonation, but I'm not really sure now.