Story in question? - Printable Version

Story in question? - Printable Version

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Story in question? - sethg - 2009-03-27

I was just reading over the FAQ on AJATT and found that Khatzumoto suggests including the story for the Kanji in the 'question' side of your SRS card.

Just out of curiosity (wish I could do a poll), how many of you who use Anki or an SRS that isn't the one on this site and include the story in the question side of the card?

I'm at 800 or so now and I have done it entirely with this site... I think I could be MUCH further along if I had the whole story in my questions... but I don't know if i'd know them as well.

Thoughts? Opinions?

Story in question? - Asriel - 2009-03-27

Don't put the story on the question side.

That's like having a card
Question:
2+2 = ?
(The number of fingers I have, without a thumb)

Answer:
4

The story gives you the answer in itself.
Essentially, the story is the answer.

Story in question? - sethg - 2009-03-27

Apologies: Not in the FAQ. Here is said post: http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blog/how-to-learn-kanji-using-an-srs

And yeah, that's my general train of thought, as well. But if Khatz did it this way and he's as fluent as he is now... and he's going on to learn Chinese... it makes me wonder.

Story in question? - Asriel - 2009-03-27

This may rub people the wrong way, but is Khatz *really* as fluent as he says he is?
Sure, I'm sure he's a lot better than I am, but he got 'fluent' in 18 months. What is his basis on 'fluency?'
The reason I ask is because he started up a niche site that was *just* what people wanted.
Japanese is becoming a more popular language to learn, and he's just a regular guy who says he became fluent by 'having fun.'

I know he has good information on his site and everything, but I guess I'm just skeptical about people who come into town and sell snake oil. Are there any videos of him demonstrating? Writing doesn't count, because that's a separate matter.

Story in question? - sethg - 2009-03-27

Yeah, on his site, in the side-bar, click "videos". I showed the video to a 2 of my Japanese friends and they said, "Oh yeah... he sounds like he grew up in Japan. Perfect." Not trying to cut you at every turn or anything, but I, too, was very skeptical, but it seems he's the real deal.

Edit: Here's the link:

Story in question? - Codexus - 2009-03-27

What does learning the kanji have to do with fluency? These are completely different things anyway.

Story in question? - sethg - 2009-03-27

Codexus Wrote:What does learning the kanji have to do with fluency? These are completely different things anyway.

I think the idea here is that if someone is fluent and they suggest a method, you are more likely to take it seriously than, say, someone who knows a lot about Japanese, but can't really communicate in it fluently.

Story in question? - Asriel - 2009-03-27

Fluency means different things to everyone. I consider reading to be part of true 'fluency.'

Anyway, yeah, he's pretty good. I'm glad there is something like this. He is the real deal.

Also encouraging:
watching him made me realize that I'm actually a lot better than I thought I was. Kanji aside (that's my own fault for thinking that my classes would teach me how to read...), I guess that I can claim on the internet that I became 'fluent' in 18 months. I started September of last year.

Story in question? - Wally - 2009-03-27

Asriel Wrote:Don't put the story on the question side.

That's like having a card
Question:
2+2 = ?
(The number of fingers I have, without a thumb)

Answer:
4

The story gives you the answer in itself.
Essentially, the story is the answer.

+1

I can't imagine not being able to write a kanji if I could see the story. My stories come up with the answer only.

Story in question? - onafarm - 2009-03-28

I agree with those who suggest that the story is the answer.

My SRS alternates between showing me the character and having me input the keyword; and showing me the keyword and having me choose between 5 (usually) similar characters. The five are displayed after a short delay, so that I can move my eyes from the screen to my notepad, where I write the character.

The 'time to next revision' for a character is shorter if I've just been shown the character than if I've just been shown the keyword.

The keyword matching allows for small typos, or typing 'colour' incorrectly as 'color' and so on.

If I don't know, I just hit enter, and the story is shown to me. That's better in my view than just being shown the answer. However, the character has now been scored as 'wrong'.

Story in question? - Sleepyhead - 2009-03-28

sethg Wrote:I was just reading over the FAQ on AJATT and found that Khatzumoto suggests including the story for the Kanji in the 'question' side of your SRS card.

Just out of curiosity (wish I could do a poll), how many of you who use Anki or an SRS that isn't the one on this site and include the story in the question side of the card?

I'm at 800 or so now and I have done it entirely with this site... I think I could be MUCH further along if I had the whole story in my questions... but I don't know if i'd know them as well.

Thoughts? Opinions?

I've been using Anki for some time, and I've done something similar. The difference, I guess, is that I have my stories in white text (the same as the background color), so that if I'm stuck I can read the story by marking over the text. This way, they story won't "disturb" me, when there's kanjis that I know well, and I also have to think abit, before I even check with the story. Also, if I do check the story, I usually mark the card as failed, so that I can "start over" in a way.

So far, it's been working pretty ok. In some cases, I've even added pics, either because the keyword is too vague, or because it's a word or concept that I don't know of (think I've said this before, but English is still not my first language ^_^).

Story in question? - Tobberoth - 2009-03-28

In general I would say that the more you have to work to produce the answer, the better it will get stuck in your brain. By just seeing a random string of numbers every day like "912837" you will eventually remember it. Same with kanji. Just seeing a kanji enough will of course make you remember it eventually. It will just take WAY longer and it will probably be lost from memory much faster.

IMO, if you put the story on the question side, you may just as well put the kanji there. You're giving it away and are relying purely on exposure. It WORKS, it's just not even close to as effective for your memory.

Story in question? - Codexus - 2009-03-28

Tobberoth Wrote:In general I would say that the more you have to work to produce the answer, the better it will get stuck in your brain

Are you sure about that? There is some research that seem to indicate that isn't true:

http://www.sciencentral.com/articles/view.php3?type=article&article_id=218393117

Quote from the article:

Quote:According to a new study [...], the longer you try to come up with the word that’s on the tip of your tongue, the more likely you’ll be to get stuck on that word in the future.

Story in question? - Asriel - 2009-03-28

Codexus Wrote:Are you sure about that? There is some research that seem to indicate that isn't true:
http://www.sciencentral.com/articles/view.php3?type=article&article_id=218393117

Also from the article:

Quote:So remember, if you’re trying to help out somebody who’s stuck, you should give them the answer. Humphreys also says you should “get them to repeat it back to you.

So does Humphreys still get stuck when she finds herself discussing that shiny black volcanic glassy stuff? “I’ve actually practiced obsidian a great deal so I’m no longer in trouble on that particular one anymore,” she says.

I think what it comes down to now, relating it to kanji, is how you grade yourself and deal with failed cards.

I doubt people taking the test who had "obsidian" went home and studied the word that day to get it stuck in memory.

I'd say, if you can't remember a kanji in about 15 seconds, mark yourself as failed -- even if it's just one primitive in the story that you forgot. Keep this rule rigid.
Then when studying it afterward, pretend it's a new kanji and actually study it instead of glancing over it.