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+--- Thread: If you finished RTK1, why change your keywords? (/thread-278.html)
If you finished RTK1, why change your keywords? - leosmith - 2006-11-28
I hear Dr. Heisig gets a lot of criticism about keywords. I think one of the things he tries to encourage folks to do is get past the stage where you're using keywords as quickly as possible. I know he encourages people to get thru the book fast. I hear a lot of discussion about changing keywords, and some of it comes from those who have finished the book. Care to share reasons?
If you finished RTK1, why change your keywords? - yorkii - 2006-11-29
initially the keywords that you use work like scaffolding for remembering a particular kanji. mnemonics work by attaching the unknown (in this case 漢字) onto the known (an [English] keyword) from this you will enforce the understaning of the unknown through the known (with me so far?)
wiki quote:
"Mnemonics rely not only on repetition to remember facts, but also on associations between easy-to-remember information and to be remembered lists of data, "
so if you imagine all of the 2042 常用漢字 (じょうようかんじ） as one large building that you are constructing in your head being held up by 2042 equal English keyowrds that you will not forget, eventually some parts of the building will be able to stand on its own without the need for the keywords. at this point the keywords are redundant and therefore something should be used in place. Wrightak is on the right lines i think by replacing keywords with 熟語/動詞/形容詞 etc that are a more direct link to the meaning (in Japanese, not your own language) of the kanji.
remember, when learning a new language, you want to be able to use that language without the need to translate back into your own. this is key. translating takes time that is not only unnecessary, but detrimental to your understanding of any language.
If you finished RTK1, why change your keywords? - JimmySeal - 2006-11-29
I'd find it useful to be able to add keywords for RTK3. In many cases they're characters for words I already know and a Japanese keyword would fit the character better than an English one anyway.
There are already a few cases of this in RTK1 (ri, rin, monme, shaku).
If you finished RTK1, why change your keywords? - CharleyGarrett - 2006-11-29
I'll just say "me too". The English keyword was just a baby step, and the replacing of the English keyword with a Japanese one is another (I think) baby step.
If you finished RTK1, why change your keywords? - leosmith - 2006-11-29
So, are you using the keywords a lot to help you read? When I read a word for the first time, I use them. But after reading it a few times, the keyword drops away completely. It gets replaced by the yomi. And the single character yomi often get replaced by the reading of the entire word. There's no thinking about the keyword at this point, unless I get stuck. So for me, the English keywords are just fine; just enough to trigger my memory.
For me, focusing on the keywords when I read is counterproductive. I want them to drop away as quickly as possible. I eventually want to read without thinking of keywords at all. Heisig advised me not to try to learn Chinese characters in my Mandarin studies until I'm at the point where I'm reading Japanese without using keywords. In my mind, that sort of confirms that I want to be reading without keywords.
I guess I think of keywords as being temporary, and not that important at this point. That is, it's important to have a keyword, but what it is right now doesn't matter to me too much. Eventually, I'll get the true meanings of all the characters through vocabulary, but I have no reason to rush this.
If you finished RTK1, why change your keywords? - wrightak - 2006-11-29
I think this all depends on your point of view. Are you looking for productive or receptive skills with kanji? i.e. are you looking to read books and newspapers or write stuff? The whole point of RTK 1 is to teach you how to write the kanji. I want to keep reviewing the writing of kanji for a long time and I don't want to continue doing it with English keywords. You need another prompt. Therefore the keyword must be replaced.
The keywords may drop away when you read but what happens to them when you write in Japanese? If you're like me, you'll think of a Japanese word you want to write, forget the exact shape of the kanji, try to recall the story that you made in your RTK studies and be forced to shift your thoughts from Japanese to an English keyword. It would be far easier if the hook for that kanji was a Japanese word and then you wouldn't have to think about English keywords.
If you view the keywords as temporary, what are you going to use instead to review the kanji in the long term?
If you finished RTK1, why change your keywords? - Raichu - 2006-11-29
As you encounter kanji you've learnt in real life, you start becoming familiar with their real range of readings and meanings. However, when you encounter a kanji that you only know the keyword for, it helps a lot if the keyword is an accurate reflection of the meaning. Many of Heisig's keywords do capture that, but some are off the mark and some seem to be wrong. For that reason, I sometimes prefer to use a more accurate keyword, like "condition/situation" instead of "but of course", or "town" instead of "village", so that I won't be led astray when I come across the kanji in real life.
I think he sometimes picks a keyword because he's got some mnemonic for it using that keyword rather than because it's accurate. I confess do it too when I sometimes pick my own keyword, but I don't think RTK should do it. Those keyword should be as accurate as practically possible so people are not led astray.
If you finished RTK1, why change your keywords? - yorkii - 2006-11-29
leosmith Wrote:So, are you using the keywords a lot to help you read? When I read a word for the first time, I use them. But after reading it a few times, the keyword drops away completely. It gets replaced by the yomi. And the single character yomi often get replaced by the reading of the entire word. There's no thinking about the keyword at this point, unless I get stuck. So for me, the English keywords are just fine; just enough to trigger my memory.there you go, you said it yourself, you are changing the keywords into something more productive. thus, answering your question "Why change them?"
If you finished RTK1, why change your keywords? - leosmith - 2006-11-29
wrightak Wrote:You need another prompt. Therefore the keyword must be replaced.Did you mean to say "I need another prompt"? What you're describing here doesn't happen to me. There are lots of very convincing theories out there, but until we experiment, we don't know if they apply to us. Everybody learns differently. Here's my theory: as I get good at reading and writing, the keywords will disappear.
The keywords may drop away when you read but what happens to them when you write in Japanese? If you're like me...
wrightak Wrote:If you view the keywords as temporary, what are you going to use instead to review the kanji in the long term?I don't have any plans to review them long term. Just reading and writing - or is that what you meant?
Raichu Wrote:I think he sometimes picks a keyword because he's got some mnemonic for it using that keyword rather than because it's accurate. I confess do it too when I sometimes pick my own keyword, but I don't think RTK should do it. Those keyword should be as accurate as practically possible so people are not led astray.Good point.
yorkii Wrote:there you go, you said it yourself, you are changing the keywords into something more productive. thus, answering your question "Why change them?"Busted! I guess if my theory is correct, we'll all be changing them. I hope to change mine thru reading books and writing stories.
If you finished RTK1, why change your keywords? - CharleyGarrett - 2006-12-01
I think I'm saying exactly what you are...I read and a japanese word comes to mind. Of course, if I'm reading, I'm looking at the kanji, so I don't need to recall how to write it. I want to link mnemonically, from the japanese "keyword" to my japanese story that recounts the primatives used to write the kanji. See, I want the keyword to be japanese AND the story to also be in japanese. But to start with a japanese keyword and a japanese story and throw in unfamiliar kanji...all at the same time, that's too much of a good thing. So, I did do RTK1 with english keywords and english stories. I'm still learning more kanji, so I'm not going back over RTK1 to systematically select japanese keywords and translate the stories to japanese...not yet. Maybe by the time I've got 4000 kanji and 10,000 sentences, then I'll have no real need to do that.
Still, it might be fun. Can you imagine sharing a kanji story with your japanese friend, in japanese, explaining how you remember how to write this kanji? Maybe they can share a good one back?
If you finished RTK1, why change your keywords? - leosmith - 2006-12-01
CharleyGarrett Wrote:I think I'm saying exactly what you are...I read and a japanese word comes to mind. Of course, if I'm reading, I'm looking at the kanji, so I don't need to recall how to write it. I want to link mnemonically, from the japanese "keyword" to my japanese story that recounts the primatives used to write the kanji. See, I want the keyword to be japanese AND the story to also be in japanese. But to start with a japanese keyword and a japanese story and throw in unfamiliar kanji...all at the same time, that's too much of a good thing. So, I did do RTK1 with english keywords and english stories. I'm still learning more kanji, so I'm not going back over RTK1 to systematically select japanese keywords and translate the stories to japanese...not yet. Maybe by the time I've got 4000 kanji and 10,000 sentences, then I'll have no real need to do that.Hey Charley, we have pretty similar goals. Actually I'm shooting for 3000 kanji and 10,000 words (of which many will need sentences). Funny you mentioned about telling a Japanese friend one of your kanji stories in Japanese. I told my tutor my story for snake; I asked it in a form of a question. She looked at me funny for a while, then yelled out - oh you're talking about the kanji for snake! She loved it.
Still, it might be fun. Can you imagine sharing a kanji story with your japanese friend, in japanese, explaining how you remember how to write this kanji? Maybe they can share a good one back?
I learned some good stuff from the 10,000 sentence guy (he's a little rant-ish though). I've got about 800 sentences for grammar right now, and I'll have about 1,000 when I finish. Man, what a great way to learn grammar and vocabulary. For me, what really made the difference (along with supermemo of course) was to make tapes and play them during my commute.
I also agree with your "baby steps" theory of learning. I always try to learn stuff that is slightly above my level. Good luck with your studies!
Leo
If you finished RTK1, why change your keywords? - matticus - 2007-01-06
leosmith Wrote:I learned some good stuff from the 10,000 sentence guy (he's a little rant-ish though). I've got about 800 sentences for grammar right now, and I'll have about 1,000 when I finish. Man, what a great way to learn grammar and vocabulary. For me, what really made the difference (along with supermemo of course) was to make tapes and play them during my commute.Not to derail the topic, but who is the 10,000 sentence guy? I am absolutely desperate for any method that gives structure to the learning of grammar and vocabulary.
If you finished RTK1, why change your keywords? - brose - 2007-01-06
Whether you need to change keywords or not depends on what you are doing with the Kanji. If you are reviewing or sharing stories on this site, it is difficult to change keywords. Because of that, I will usually go with the Heisig keyword unless it is way off. However, if you are trying to learn the word 食卓, it's going to be awfully hard if "eminent" is your keyword for 卓. That is why I use "table". When I review the kanji's I have to remember that eminent is table, and table is 卓. The more Japanese you know, the more annoying this becomes. That's why most of the people who are requesting the ability to somehow use substitute keywords while reviewing are people with Japanese cities next to their names. Another problem with the keywords is that knowing that "tender" is 柔 still doesn't tell you how to write やわらかい. Is it 柔わらかい, 柔らかい, 柔かい, or 柔い?
I while back I suggested a solution that would, literally, make my life a lot easier: pressing a "hint" button on the review page could reveal 10 or so characters from your story for the character, allowing you to use whatever keyword you want, including things like 新かん線 when reviewing "tree trunk".
If you finished RTK1, why change your keywords? - aircawn - 2007-01-06
matticus Wrote:Not to derail the topic, but who is the 10,000 sentence guy? I am absolutely desperate for any method that gives structure to the learning of grammar and vocabulary.It's this guy. When I've finished RTK1 I'll be following his technique too. (Sounds like I'm learning a martial art... hah). You might want to start at this page and work your way forward, navigation around his articles isn't organised too well...
If you finished RTK1, why change your keywords? - raulir - 2007-01-06
I've changed all the keywords, or to be more precise, don't use keywords anymore. An example of my flashcard: (question:answer) "〈や〉める、〈じ〉てん:辞". Yet I use this site for sharing stories (for reviewing I use mnemosyne). I changed all my keywords to such at around 1300 kanjis or so, and am now at 1978 kanjis. When I write stories here or use those written by others, I use the keywords and then adapt the story to fit the image I got/have for the kanji and/or the example words I used. Then I more often than not forget the keyword, as I don't particularly try to memorize it.
The adapting part is very little work, as I've mostly tried to make stories that stick to actual meanings and nuances, even if the keywords sometimes make it difficult. Towards the end (after the "lots of weird kanjis" chapter, such as 飛) this has become particularly strained though, so for someone adhering to the keywords my stories there may be a bit far-fetched. As the amount of errors also rises towards the end, my guess is that Heisig paid more attention to the early parts of the book.
The keyword "eminent" for 卓 likely does not try to cover the usage in 食卓 (heh), but that in 卓越. Correct okurigana for やわらかい is 柔らかい, and you really need to study the rules for okurigana separately from kanji studies. See http://www.bunka.go.jp/kokugo/main.asp?fl=list&id=1000003931&clc=1000000068 for those. The relevant parts are 「活用語尾の前に「か」,「やか」,「らか」を含む形容動詞は,その音節から送る。」 (e.g. 「柔らかだ」) and 「活用語尾以外の部分に他の語を含む語は,含まれている語の送り仮名の付け方によって送る。」 (e.g. 「柔らかい」). They are mostly logical but the logic is somewhat arbitrary (and the official one is not the only one people actually use, but there's no reason to intentionally depart from it) and there are many exceptions listed in the official rules ("these are the basic rules, but the following words are Just Written This Way").
If you finished RTK1, why change your keywords? - Chadokoro_K - 2007-01-06
I am using both English core meanings (taken from Halpern's "Kanji Learner's Dictionary") and Japanese words that best illustrate these meanings.
I am not a beginner at Japanese/kanji. This is my third time through Heisig in the last 15 years. Actually I've used my Japanese very little in the last 5 years and am now trying to get everything back and go beyond where I was before. (I could read and write approximately 1200 kanji. Well, I could probably read/guess more than that.)
I found that Heisig's keywords stuck in my head to the point of interferring with my ability to deduce a word's meaning. This happened both when Heisig's keyword was very archaic or selected only for mnemonic value, as well as when it was only one of multiple meanings that have little or no connection to one another. For example...
raulir Wrote:[snip] The keyword "eminent" for 卓 likely does not try to cover the usage in 食卓 (heh), but that in 卓越. ...So I decided to come up with stories for all major meanings of a kanji. (Unless it has 18 meanings or something!) Similar to what people are doing with Kanji Town for readings, but I do this for meaning and writing.
I often found myself thinking of the Japanese words that correspond to Halpern's core meanings and so I decided to add these as part of the multiple-pronged peg that I hang each kanji's writing on.
During review, I may look at the English core meaning(s), the Japanese example words, or both. Whatever best suits my level of knowledge for that particular kanji (eg: table / eminent: 食タク ／ タク越).
Obviously this method won't work suit everyone. For beginners the Heisig method with minor tweaking of keywords may be best, but IMO needs to be followed up immediately with active (planned) replacement of those artificial devices with multiple Japanese words and meanings.
Heisig's claim that these will fall away naturally when one reads Japanese didn't hold true for me. This is just the way my brain works and won't be an issue for all learners, but it may be an issue for some others as well. That is why I think the replacement process is something that needs to be actively worked at.
If you finished RTK1, why change your keywords? - raulir - 2007-01-06
Chadokoro_K Wrote:I found that Heisig's keywords stuck in my head to the point of interferring with my ability to deduce a word's meaning. [...]Your experience is a bit different from mine, then. I was familiar with most of the kanjis in RTK 1 before starting it (probably around 1800 RTK 1 kanjis, but most I could ever write without RTK was 800, as I strongly emphasize reading), so we have something in common there, but for me the keywords never stuck well. Indeed, going from kanji to keyword was much more difficult whenever I tried it: I could remember the story and approximate meaning, but not the keyword.
Heisig's claim that these will fall away naturally when one reads Japanese didn't hold true for me. This is just the way my brain works and won't be an issue for all learners, but it may be an issue for some others as well. That is why I think the replacement process is something that needs to be actively worked at.
Also when I started to review my flashcards after half a year of not doing anything about RTK 1, I got a huge number of them wrong, and many which I got right went well only because I could guess a Japanese word from the keyword and then get some aid from visual memory (a little hint of the shape can do wonders). At that point I'd had enough of the trouble caused by words which were supposed to be mere scaffolding and discarded them, after which things started going much more smoothly. I guess this result is the combination of my familiarity with the kanjis when reading and my not being a native English speaker (and thus presumably the keywords are less familiar to me than they would be to a native, especially as Heisig is not among those who eschew obscurity).