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Next step after Kana - s0m31john - 2009-03-19

I'm sorry, I bet this topic has been made a million and a half times. I searched around on the forums for a little while to find a similar topic but didn't find the advice I was exactly looking for. If there is a thread just point me in that direction and I'll be on my way.

Anyway, I've finally mastered Hiragana and Katakana to the point where I can read and pronounce them without thinking about it. Of course I don't understand what I'm pronouncing, but you get the idea.

I'm going to move onto Remembering the Kanji, but I want to know if I should start learning basic grammar at the same time? If so what's the best book/source to do that with? I found this site (http://www.guidetojapanese.org/) suggested on the forums. Would you suggest I start there while going through Remembering the Kanji?

Like I said, point me to the right thread if I missed it, if not any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

Next step after Kana - bodhisamaya - 2009-03-19

It only takes a few months to finish RTK if you devote yourself full time. It will make what ever you study after that much more efficient. So buckle down and focus. Then off to http://smart.fm and start learning Japanese Smile

Next step after Kana - hotkiller123 - 2009-03-19

I second bodhisamaya, and if you want to learn some grammar, I would recommend this site:
http://www.guidetojapanese.org/
This is a good site that provides clear and logical explanations for basic japanese grammar.

Next step after Kana - bombpersons - 2009-03-19

Yep, Just learn the kanji, add sentences from Tae kims guide (http://www.guidetojapanese.org/), then start mining your sentences from wherever. You don't really need any more grammer, since most of everything else you can figure out.

Next step after Kana - Tobberoth - 2009-03-19

Personally I would recommend good textbooks since they give you everything you need in the start... grammar in context, dialogues based on early must-have Japanese. Just make sure you get GOOD stuff with tons of example sentences and texts.

Next step after Kana - Jarvik7 - 2009-03-19

I second Tobberoth. Going AJATT/sentence mining right away would just end up being slower I think. Do a beginner level textbook like Genki or Nakama to get the basics down first.

Next step after Kana - Codexus - 2009-03-19

Get a real introductory textbook and get started learning some basic Japanese first. Tae Kim's guide is nice for a free resource, but it's a bit dry and the guy has some peculiar ideas too.

While I recommend starting on the kanji early with RtK, it's going to take a lot of work. First learn some of the more interesting parts. Discovering a new language, how it works, how differently people say things is a lot of fun. So first get addicted on that and build your motivation for the hard parts. If you just jump head first into kanji right away, there is a good chance you'll get tired of that and you could end up giving up on Japanese before you even got really started.

Next step after Kana - bombpersons - 2009-03-19

Ugh...I remember those Genki books....If you're going to use them then I would suggest you just take the example sentences and go through the book quite fast. The books are really quite boring, and 99.9% of the excersizes are just translating English to Japanese...

Next step after Kana - Jarvik7 - 2009-03-19

bombpersons Wrote:Ugh...I remember those Genki books....If you're going to use them then I would suggest you just take the example sentences and go through the book quite fast. The books are really quite boring, and 99.9% of the excersizes are just translating English to Japanese...
With a proper study regimen and SRS, someone should be able to do one chapter per day minimum. That ends up being under 1 month for both books I believe. Genki I+II brings you to about JLPT3 ability iirc (though you're likely going to need some more vocab). I personally never learned from a textbook (used a basic reader + explanations from a prof) so I can't comment too much on the quality of basic level texts though.

Next step after Kana - Tobberoth - 2009-03-19

I'd say Minna no Nihongo is a perfect source of mining for the beginner. No English near those books. Just a dialogue and then more example sentences using the important grammar and vocabs for that chapter. Put all the sentences in an SRS and go though a chapter or so a day. After both books, you should be beyond JLPT3 level (I personally got 95% on an inofficial JLPT3 test after finishing book 2... so yeah, effective beyond any doubt).

Next step after Kana - stoked - 2009-03-19

Tobberoth Wrote:I'd say Minna no Nihongo is a perfect source of mining for the beginner.
Which one?

http://www.nihonya.de/shop_minna_no_nihongo/shop_minna_no_nihongo.htm

Minna no Nihongo I Honsatsu, right?

http://www.nihonya.de/shop_minna_no_nihongo/shop_minna_no_nihongo_hauptlehrbuecher/minna_no_nihongo_hauptlehrbuecher.htm

Or the one with English (or German) translations?

http://www.roellin-books.com/de/bookstore/bookstore.html

Oh, and is there an audio CD for the dialogs? This is confusing...

Next step after Kana - s0m31john - 2009-03-19

Hey everyone, thanks for the advice.

The only Textbooks I have available to me are the Genki ones. I haven't heard too many good things about them either.

Whatever I do I would like to be able to at least attempt reading some real stuff. I have a subscription to Megami Magazine and even being able to pick through that and understand a little would give me motivation to keep going.

I've been formally taught French, Spanish, and German (only the basics) and I remember there being a ton of time devoted to grammar rules and verb conjugations. I don't know how the Japanese system works or if it's even similar to those languages in terms of grammar in any way. I just have a hard time thinking I'd be able to pick up on all the grammar rules and conjugation rules by example.

I think I will slowly go through the Geki textbooks and RtK at the same time.

Like I said, while studying other languages I got my motivation by being able to put a use to my knowledge right away in real world applications (ex. magazines, newspapers, etc). What in your opinion would be the best path to take to be able to do that?

Next step after Kana - Asriel - 2009-03-19

Maybe it's because I had a wonderful classroom experience, relatively close with all my classmates -- but I loved Genki and Genki II.

We loved following the characters and everything. Even with the most "awkward" people in class it gave you something to talk about with them.

As for self-study, this is the only place that I have heard bad things about Genki. I thought the grammar explanations were well-explained, fit in with the dialogues, and had a good basis of starter vocab.

Next step after Kana - Codexus - 2009-03-19

s0m31john Wrote:Like I said, while studying other languages I got my motivation by being able to put a use to my knowledge right away in real world applications (ex. magazines, newspapers, etc). What in your opinion would be the best path to take to be able to do that?
Don't expect too much at the beginning. Japanese requires a lot of investment before you can reap the benefits and really get something out of newspaper and magazines.

In my opinion, the best way to enjoy what you've learned quickly is to watch anime and/or dorama (Japanese TV series). You'll need the subs for a long time in order to really understand the story but even a beginner level can really make a huge difference in enjoying those shows. Japanese is easy to listen to and you can get a lot from spoken conversation quickly. Even if you don't understand the words, you can relatively easily hear them distinctively. This really contrasts with my experience in learning English: there was a time when I knew most of the words (I could read novels easily) but couldn't understand what people were saying (I imagine English speakers have the same experience with my native language, French).

Next step after Kana - mr_hans_moleman - 2009-03-19

My opinion(For someone who knows hiragana/katakana):

1. Learn Kanji. Do this fast. Even if you don't remember half of it, it doesn't matter. In my opinion, use Heisig to learn to differentiate the kanji. Spend a couple of months on this.

2. Read Tae Kim's guide. Spend a week reading all of it. Even if you don't remember it all, focus on knowing that certain grammar rules exist. Mine the sentences into your SRS. Done!

3. Start reading things meant for Japanese people. At your level, understanding Doraemon manga's should be no problem. They have furigana in them.

The thing is, you will most likely be overwhelmed by all this new information. A lot of things are not going to make sense. But with enough reading, with context you will learn a lot of things naturally. One thing I regret not doing earlier is number 3. I did that maybe 9 months into my studying. I don't know why though. And for people who have the kanji down, pick up a kids novel.

Be realistic. People will give you a lot of advice, but it's all going to depend on your goals. How fast do you want to reach fluency, if at all? Try to get as much exposure to the language as possible. Pick things to read that naturally repeat(ie will natural repeat vocab etc...). That's why I recommend novels, and manga series.

Next step after Kana - mr_hans_moleman - 2009-03-19

Also, get a japanese girlfriend if you can lol.

Next step after Kana - rich_f - 2009-03-19

Genki can be far more efficient as a resource if you simply buy the answer key and OCR it. Use those sentences as your grammar examples, as they're guaranteed native source.

Copy the exercises and the answers into your SRS.That way you get a lot of reps to highlight a grammar point. You can even turn them into fill in the blank questions in Anki to make them more useful.

Or you can just use them as plain old sentences, and overwhelm your brain with a large number of examples. I find that helps me get a point to stick better. Just one sentence covering a vocab word or concept isn't nearly as effective as 3-5. It depends on the word/concept. Some stick better than others.

EDIT: Oh yeah, and as soon as you can, read all of the Japanese stuff you can. I wholeheartedly agree with that. But don't necessarily drown yourself in RTK before deciding on whether you actually like the language first.

Next step after Kana - Jarvik7 - 2009-03-19

mr_hans_moleman Wrote:3. Start reading things meant for Japanese people. At your level, understanding Doraemon manga's should be no problem. They have furigana in them.
How is that? By following your steps he still would have no vocabulary and a VERY basic grasp of grammar (not even enough for Doraemon without a lot of puzzling stuff out) at this point. Jumping directly into trying to read a manga, even a children's one, from (virtually) nothing is pushing a bit too hard imo.

Next step after Kana - Ampharos64 - 2009-03-19

I'm a beginner, too (been studying a couple of months). We're using Genki in our class (which I do regret taking, since the pace is tortuously slow), and I would have to grudgingly say, that as textbooks go, it's not too bad. The dialogues are kind of boring (and 'Mearii-san' gets on my nerves. Sorry!), but it doesn't hurt to learn things like basic greetings. The use of romaji (fairly unhelpful romaji at that - the only thing writing せんせい as 'sensee' did was ensure my classmates pronounce it as 'sen-sea') will be annoying for the first couple of lessons, but I was pleasantly surprised to find it switches to Kana and Kanji at lesson 3. So, you probably will be able to get something out of it, though explanations are often simplified. Second the recommendation of Tae Kim's guide - it may be helpful to use as a reference alongside Genki, and to give a general overview of how the language works.
Compared to German, Spanish and French, you might be pleased to find that Japanese at least avoids things like noun gender (and doesn't even have plurals), and the conjugation rules seem pretty regular thus far (which is not very far).

Getting bored and attempting to read something like Natsume Souseki's 'Kokoro' by means of looking all the words up in a dictionary is, incidentally, not recommended, even if you manage to figure out the first sentence after about, oh, half an hour (What? It's a good sentence. Not that I'd, uh, waste time trying things like that...<_> >_>). I know it's frustrating not being able to read things you want to, but you're probably better off with simpler material at first (I think there's a couple of very short folktales etc. towards the end of Genki I as reading exercises, and Doraemon and an extract from Yoko Ono's autobiography in Genki II). You could use your magazine subscription to practice your Kana reading, and try to figure out those Katakana words which are from English.

Oh, and if you're on FireFox, you might find Rikaichan helpful:
http://www.polarcloud.com/rikaichan/

Good luck!

Next step after Kana - Jarvik7 - 2009-03-20

Ampharos64 Wrote:I'm a beginner, too (been studying a couple of months). We're using Genki in our class (which I do regret taking, since the pace is tortuously slow),
It seems that most western schools that use Genki use it incorrectly. I know one person whose school does one Genki chapter per MONTH. It takes 2 years of classes to finish both books (which is his school's entire Japanese program). It seems like most schools do one book per year (1 chapter every other week). Like I mentioned in another thread, Genki is meant to be used at a rapid pace of one book per semester, which works out to one chapter per week I think.

関西外大 (whose profs wrote the book) had semesters like this when I was there:
1 Genki 1
2 Genki 2
3 Integrated Approach to Intermediate Japanese (essentially Genki 3)
4 material packet
5 中級から上級への日本語
6 material packet

Each semester covered the equivalent of 1 year at a normal western university.

Next step after Kana - Asriel - 2009-03-20

Jarvik7 Wrote:Like I mentioned in another thread, Genki is meant to be used at a rapid pace of one book per semester, which works out to one chapter per week I think.
I definitely agree with this post. My school did it the same way, except after Integrated Approach (3), it all real material -- news, books, stories, drama, you name it...

I took first year, which we did Genki I and II, and then I took 3rd and 4th semesters in an intensive 10-week course, which we had the author of Intermediate Japanese teaching us.

Now, in my 2nd/3rd year (depends on how you count...) we're reading something or other by Murakami Haruki.

Next step after Kana - bombpersons - 2009-03-20

Jarvik7 Wrote:
mr_hans_moleman Wrote:3. Start reading things meant for Japanese people. At your level, understanding Doraemon manga's should be no problem. They have furigana in them.
How is that? By following your steps he still would have no vocabulary and a VERY basic grasp of grammar (not even enough for Doraemon without a lot of puzzling stuff out) at this point. Jumping directly into trying to read a manga, even a children's one, from (virtually) nothing is pushing a bit too hard imo.
Just look up all the words he didn't know...That would be almost all of them but, it never bothered me...
Most grammer you can figure out, if not from context, rikaichan gives explanations of grammer words and stuff. I think for a begginner all you need is Tae Kims, it was the only thing I used (except from 4 chapters of Genki, where I learnt pretty much nothing..) and I jumped straight into reading manga.

Next step after Kana - sethg - 2009-03-20

Jarvik7 Wrote:
mr_hans_moleman Wrote:3. Start reading things meant for Japanese people. At your level, understanding Doraemon manga's should be no problem. They have furigana in them.
How is that? By following your steps he still would have no vocabulary and a VERY basic grasp of grammar (not even enough for Doraemon without a lot of puzzling stuff out) at this point. Jumping directly into trying to read a manga, even a children's one, from (virtually) nothing is pushing a bit too hard imo.
I don't think this is really all that impossible. I mean, if he goes through the Tae Kim guide, that's all the grammar he'll need for reading. Vocabulary he can get along the way, looking up individual words and maybe SRSing the sentence they're from.

I'm taking a Japanese course at my university to fulfill a requirement for my major and we're using the Genki books. We're only doing 3 lessons per semester. It's horribly slow and I don't really feel I've learned very much aside from vocabulary. I have to agree with the All Japanese All The Time site on this one: textbooks are mostly only good for getting sentences. If you're having problems with grammar, I'd suggest the books by Naoko Chino. They're more of a reference than something that walks you by the hand, so you can learn about something when you encounter it.

Then again, it's 2 am and I've been up since 7:30 yesterday.... Tongue

Next step after Kana - Jarvik7 - 2009-03-20

3 lessons per semester? wow!

Doesn't Genki 1+2 have like 50+ chapters? It'll take you guys a decade to get to JLPT3 at that rate!

Next step after Kana - Evil_Dragon - 2009-03-20

When it comes to Genki.. am I the only one who thinks Robert is a stoner?