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Learning Sentences - Asriel - 2009-03-14
I've heard a lot about learning Japanese by studying sentences in SRS programs like Anki.
I'm not sure I understand this.
This is my interpretation of it, but I'd like to be corrected if this isn't how it's supposed to work:
1. Make a cumulative deck of Anki sentences ('the deck').
2. Every day, find 10 or so words that you want to learn, and rather than just adding the word to the deck, you add in a sentence using the word to the deck.
3. Study these in Anki, and let the SRS do it's trick.
4. Repeat steps 2 and 3 for eternity...
If that's the case, then it's fine, but there's some problems which I'm confused about:
1. Ideal sentences.
A sentence can be as short as ”歯医者に行く” and it can be, literally as long as you want it to be、“最近、歯が痛かったので、親知らずを抜く為にこの春休みに歯医者に行く予定があります”
These are examples, but what are 'ideal sentences'
2. Unknown kanji words.
I consider myself to be a high intermediate, maybe advanced Japanese student, so grammar isn't really a problem. My kanji is shit, so I'm doing RTK, but i'm only about 550 in, so there's a lot of words that I want to use that I haven't learned the kanji for. How do I resolve this?
3. Grading
Anki has the options of how well you knew the item. I'm terrible at grading myself in terms of this.
The whole 'sentence method' just seems to confuse me. If this is a stupid question, I'll delete the thread and get it out of the way.
Learning Sentences - Okaachan - 2009-03-14
Yep, that's basically the idea.
1. Each sentence should only have one or two "items" that are new to you. These items could be something such as a new vocabulary word or a new grammar point. The length of my sentences vary a bit but are usually between the size of your two example sentences. I don't think you should worry too much about size. As long as you can read them fairly quickly its fine.
2. You could finish RTK before you start adding sentences to your SRS. I don't know the best thing to do about unknown kanji if you want to start adding sentences before you are done with RTK. Perhaps someone who has tried it could share their experience.
3. For grading on Anki I mostly use the 'good' for when I read the sentence correctly (correct pronunciation and understanding) and 'soon' for when I fail to read the sentence correctly.
Hopefully that helps.
Learning Sentences - woodwojr - 2009-03-14
For unknown kanji or other n+large k sentences, I typically add it suspended. Every few months I try to sweep through my suspended cards and filter out the cards that I can either delete or unsuspend.
~J
Learning Sentences - uberstuber - 2009-03-14
Your outline is pretty much spot on.
Asriel Wrote:1. Ideal sentences.I am for as short as possible, but use longer sentences when learning connecting grammar or when its needed for context. Shorter phrases make SRS reviews less grueling, and still teach new vocab just as well. I don't have problems understanding longer sentences despite the fact that there are few in my deck.
A sentence can be as short as ”歯医者に行く” and it can be, literally as long as you want it to be、“最近、歯が痛かったので、親知らずを抜く為にこの春休みに歯医者に行く予定があります”
These are examples, but what are 'ideal sentences'
You can break down that long section into smaller phrases
最近、歯が痛かった
歯医者に行く予定があります
親知らずを抜く為に
To learn or get more exposure to ので： 歯が痛かったので、春休みに歯医者に行く予定があります
I think AJATT has a post on shortening sentences like this.
Quote:2. Unknown kanji words.I recommend finishing RTK first. You can dink around with only adding stuff for kanji you know already but in the end it'll be more efficient to just finish rtk.
Quote:3. GradingCompletely forgot a reading/meaning? Give it a 1. Had to read the sentence 3 or more times to get it/struggled on a reading for a long time? Give it a 2. Could you read the sentence and understand it on the first go through, maybe tripping up a little on a word or two? Give it a 3. Use 4 for stuff that felt super easy.
Anki has the options of how well you knew the item. I'm terrible at grading myself in terms of this.
Learning Sentences - Evil_Dragon - 2009-03-14
Asriel Wrote:3. GradingThe way I grade myself when it comes to sentences/vocabulary.. If I am able to read the item on the spot and have a good idea of what the sentence and individual words mean, I press "Good". "Hard" is any item I have to think about for a little while before being able to reproduce the reading/meaning. Personally I use "Easy" almost never, only for items I thoroughly know by heart and use myself on a daily basis, as they show up on TV, in Manga etc. all the time.
Anki has the options of how well you knew the item. I'm terrible at grading myself in terms of this.
Has been working out for me so far.When it comes to learning Kanji.. just breeze through RTK! It will not take you that long.
But because of the way RTK is arranged, some common Kanji are learned at the very end of the book. So you will run into Kanji you do not know quite often if you start adding vocabulary/sentences at this stage, which can get quite frustrating I presume. Having 2000+ Kanji under your belt (being able to write them) is a great self-confidence booster.
Learning Sentences - igordesu - 2009-03-14
as for grading, I use the little timer in the bottom right corner of anki. If I can get it/finish it in 15 seconds or less, it's good. if I get it but it takes 16 secs or longer, it's hard. If it's ridiculously easy and I finish it SUUUUUUUPER fast, it's easy. Stick to this rule very strictly for a while to get a feel for it, and then once you're used to it you can ease up a bit and grade based on feel.
Learning Sentences - mattyjaddy - 2009-03-15
I would say, you have the general idea down. But I think there are a couple important parts that are missing in your overview. (This depends on if there are other "sentence methods" out there besides what is written about on alljapaneseallthetime.com which is what I'm basing my reply on here.)
One of the keys is that your sentences aren't sought out by you, but that they appear in the written and spoken material that you are encountering daily. Put another way (with the emphasis better placed), you are reading and listening to Japanese every day as much as you can, and when an interesting/unknown/difficult phrase/word/grammar point/jukugo/etc. appears, you add the sentence in which it is found to your SRS.
One underlying principle that I think is important to understand is why do this with these sentences rather than just continue reading/listening to Japanese. The method draws from research about second language acquisition that shows that acquisition occurs when you are exposed to language that you can and do understand. Since you are not likely to understand (easily) everything in the language that you are reading and listening to in the "real world", you are isolating grammar/vocab rich chunks of the language (that you look up and study in order to understand) so that you can be exposed to them over and over (through an SRS). By building a large library of chunks, you are reducing the likelihood of accidently memorizing the chunks. By reviewing the chunks daily (in place of time spent listening/reading to real natural Japanese, in the form of manga, radio, TV, etc.) you are increasing your chances of exposure to Japanese that you will understand, thereby increasing the amount of time spent with Japanese that will increase your acquisition.
So I would revise your step by step overview:
1. Read and listen to Japanese as much as you can every day.
2. When you encounter something interesting, something you didn't understand but want to, etc. you add it and its sentence to your SRS. (You can put a goal of 10 per day if you want, but you shouldn't feel limited by it. In other words, add more if you find more, add less if you don't find many good ones.)
3. Study these in your SRS. Let the SRS and your daily exposure to Japanese (from #1) do their tricks.
4. Repeat steps 1-3 forever. (Or until you are able to approach any Japanese material without constant recourse to a dictionary or grammar book. When you can do this, as long as you are still reading/listening to Japanese daily, you won't need to continue with the SRS. You simply enjoy things in Japanese, use context clues when you don't understand, or use a dictionary/grammar guide when context clues fail you. Just like you do in your native language when you come across stuff you don't understand.)
If you ever have to reduce your time spent studying, you should always continue your SRS reviews and spend whatever remaining time there is on listening/reading Japanese.
Your questions.
1. Ideal sentences vary according to the person. As you start working, you'll find your own rhythm, rhyme and reason. Do what feels right and works for you. General tendencies are:
-Use sentences that contain one or two parts that are difficult/unknown to you. (This means one or two words OR grammar points OR expressions OR kanji. One or two of each of those is way too much unknown stuff for the sentence to really be helpful. The sentences you choose should be almost comprehensible to you with the exception of the one or two bits.)
-Avoid super long sentences and single word utterances. (Short sentences often lack the context needed to understand and acquire anything of worth. Long sentences have lots of context, but are overwhelming for a flashcard style of learning. Also, they are likely to include too much stuff that is difficult for you.)
-Use sentences that are interesting even after they are removed from the source material. (Make sure the word/grammar is interesting to you or that the content of the sentence is interesting. This helps make the review process a bit more enjoyable than if you only used sentences from grammar/textbooks.)
-Don't worry too much about this. You can add it now and easily delete it later.
2. If you feel your Japanese grammar/vocab is intermediate/advanced, then I echo others' advice. Focus on finishing RtK before getting into sentences. At 500, your knowledge of kanji is not quite good enough to get into reading too much. When you get to around 1500 or so, you can start getting into reading and not feel too bogged down by unknown kanji. Starting around 1500 also might spur you on to finish since you will feel so good about all the kanji you can recognize, you'll want to finish the book so you can recognize all of them. The sentence method is really about acquiring the whole language as it is. It will help with learning the kanji readings and how kanji are used, but only if you know how to recognize them. Otherwise, the sentence method won't really work. Unless you are using only kana based sentences. Or if you are using sentences that only have one new kanji word per sentence, thus allowing you to acquire that new kanji. This isn't really advisable. You should get the kanji done, then start sentences.
3. Don't worry so much about the grading either. After a while you'll get a feel for it. Maybe try people's advice on timing yourself at first.
You might ask why emphasize step one instead of just using an SRS with sentences. Being exposed to isolated sentences definitely increases your acquisition over being exposed to a list of vocabulary or a list of grammatical structures. But it still can't include all the context that comes in natural use of the language. If you are reading an actual book or manga, you will be exposed to how authors refer to characters, events, etc. that occurred in the near past, distant past, extreme distant past. You will better see how nouns, pronouns, and antecedents work. You will get an idea of how tenses are used throughout a discourse. (This is very different from English. The past and present get mixed in a way that still baffles me, but I'm started to get a feel for desu being used to mean was.) It's hard to explain, but there are aspects of language that cannot be isolated in a single sentence. For these, you need to have exposure to the language as it is used in real life. This is one reason why step one is key to the sentence method.
To be honest, I didn't really stick with using SRS with sentences. But I stuck with step 1 above and that has been working pretty well for me. I do wonder though if they would have helped me progress even faster. It's on my to-do list to get back to doing sentences. Someday.
Good luck!
Learning Sentences - Brittswimmer1y6 - 2009-03-16
Since this is related to what's being discussed here, I thought I'd post this question: When you see the question do you prefer to see the kana readings then write the kanji, or see the kanji and write/say the sentence?
Option 1:
歯医者に行く
Option 2:
はいしゃ に いく
I was personally going on Option 1, however, Khatz and a few other people had stated that Option 2 seemed to make them remember the readings better. So I ask you all: What do you personally do?
Learning Sentences - woodwojr - 2009-03-16
I do both; if you're going to choose one, though, pick the first. The latter is solely to take the place of RtK as production practice.
~J
Learning Sentences - Tobberoth - 2009-03-16
I do only option 1. Option 2 has its uses but it takes way too long. Personally I consider the main point of an SRS to make me comfortable with words and stuff which I'm not exposed to enough so that when I see them in texts later, i won't have to think twice about what they mean or how they are read. For that, option 1 gives the most benefits and Option 2 isn't all that useful.
If you have some reason to be able to produce words flawlessly, Option 2 might be a good idea... but I doubt that will be enough for such a goal anyway.
Learning Sentences - woodwojr - 2009-03-16
It helps; there may be a better way, but I don't know it yet.
~J
Learning Sentences - Asriel - 2009-03-16
Wow, thanks everyone who responded here, especially mattyjaddy!
I think I understand it now. It really is as simple as I originally thought (with some differences)
Although I do have another question...
In the past when I would study vocab, I would study just the word, production and recognition. ie. I would have one card, "歯医者" with "はいしゃ, Dentist" written on the other side, and I would study them both directions.
Recently I've been doing iKnow, but only doing iKnow, without any dictation.
I've found that I KNOW all the words, but only in the context of studying. If I see them other places, or I hear them in conversation, they go by as words that I know that I *should* know, but I don't know them.
Do sentences help this at all?
Learning Sentences - woodwojr - 2009-03-16
In my experience, yes. This may be because the words are no longer primarily being encountered in a single context; because the same word can be in more than one sentence, you become used to seeing it in different places.
~J
Learning Sentences - captal - 2009-03-16
Asriel Wrote:Recently I've been doing iKnow, but only doing iKnow, without any dictation.I have the exact same problem- I seem to do ok in iKnow but then I don't know them at all in conversation unless I've really gone out of my way to use them.
I've found that I KNOW all the words, but only in the context of studying. If I see them other places, or I hear them in conversation, they go by as words that I know that I *should* know, but I don't know them.
Do sentences help this at all?
I put all of core 3/4 into Anki to review and it didn't help me with that problem because when the audio was read I would know the sentence but other times I couldn't reproduce it.
Learning Sentences - saizen - 2009-03-16
Asriel Wrote:I've found that I KNOW all the words, but only in the context of studying. If I see them other places, or I hear them in conversation, they go by as words that I know that I *should* know, but I don't know them.I find this happens to me allll the time especially with words that I have only reviewed 2-3 times. I find that my mature cards (reviewed 5+ times), I definately hear them in conversation and usually the whole sentence will pop out in a conversation. But after only two 2(successfully passed) reviews i ALWAYS can read the word (power of heisig right there).
Do sentences help this at all?
Learning Sentences - Matthew - 2009-03-16
Has anyone actually made any real progress with this method? It seems extremely time-consuming for the amount of actual benefit.
For example, there are ~180 grammatical points for JLPT L2, and another 100 or so for L1. Many of these have multiple forms, so even with only one sentence for each form, you're talking ~500 sentences just for grammar. In the time it takes to create that many flashcards, it seems like I could be getting a lot else done.
Learning Sentences - saizen - 2009-03-16
Matthew Wrote:Has anyone actually made any real progress with this method? It seems extremely time-consuming for the amount of actual benefit.You best believe I have seen results with this. My reading comprehension has shot through the freaking roof on this method.
For example, there are ~180 grammatical points for JLPT L2, and another 100 or so for L1. Many of these have multiple forms, so even with only one sentence for each form, you're talking ~500 sentences just for grammar. In the time it takes to create that many flashcards, it seems like I could be getting a lot else done.
To put it in perspective..5 months ago(when i finished hesig and started sentences) i couldn't read japanese subs, with a japanese movie going..but just last weekend (roughly 1000 sentences mark) I watched a movie with japanese subtitles and I could say with the subs I understood like 80% of the movie. Without subs (which is what i normally do) it goes down to about 40-50% comprehension.
In my experience so far speaking ability doesn't go up so much but I find that the things I do know how to say are gradually increasing and the speed at which I say them are a lot faster. You have "memorized" sentences..so you are no longer thinking about rules (well not as much) when you speak ..therefore speaking speed has gone up, this is my theory. And the grammar just starts to make sense..nobody can explain that phenomenom(sp?) but everyone can agree that it is there.
Learning Sentences - Asriel - 2009-03-16
saizen Wrote:You have "memorized" sentences..so you are no longer thinking about rulesThis isn't necessarily what I want to happen. Because if this happens, I'll be able to know what the sentence means, but it'll be the same problem as before -- not being able to use it in conversation.
Learning Sentences - saizen - 2009-03-16
Asriel Wrote:This isn't necessarily what I want to happen. Because if this happens, I'll be able to know what the sentence means, but it'll be the same problem as before -- not being able to use it in conversation.Well if you want to be able to use it in conversation you will have to well...practice using it in converstation. Anki method is reading practice...and you just have to faith that the speaking will follow with time. BUT practicing speaking in a controlled manner just makes it happen all the more faster.
Learning Sentences - Matthew - 2009-03-16
saizen Wrote:Let me clarify what I mean... A typical Japanese textbook has many short readings, and the grammar section contains sample sentences also. If I want to review them, I can just read the textbook again. In the time it takes to type up every single sentence from a reading into flashcards, I could have covered even more material.Matthew Wrote:Has anyone actually made any real progress with this method? It seems extremely time-consuming for the amount of actual benefit.You best believe I have seen results with this. My reading comprehension has shot through the freaking roof on this method.
For example, there are ~180 grammatical points for JLPT L2, and another 100 or so for L1. Many of these have multiple forms, so even with only one sentence for each form, you're talking ~500 sentences just for grammar. In the time it takes to create that many flashcards, it seems like I could be getting a lot else done.
To put it in perspective..5 months ago(when i finished hesig and started sentences) i couldn't read japanese subs, with a japanese movie going..but just last weekend (roughly 1000 sentences mark) I watched a movie with japanese subtitles and I could say with the subs I understood like 80% of the movie. Without subs (which is what i normally do) it goes down to about 40-50% comprehension.
In my experience so far speaking ability doesn't go up so much but I find that the things I do know how to say are gradually increasing and the speed at which I say them are a lot faster. You have "memorized" sentences..so you are no longer thinking about rules (well not as much) when you speak ..therefore speaking speed has gone up, this is my theory. And the grammar just starts to make sense..nobody can explain that phenomenom(sp?) but everyone can agree that it is there.
Learning Sentences - woodwojr - 2009-03-16
Matthew Wrote:Has anyone actually made any real progress with this method? It seems extremely time-consuming for the amount of actual benefit.The force multiplier is that you are getting a lot else done. Unless you, for some reason, make sure that you don't see a single new word, reading for a character, sense of a word you already knew, or other piece of new information in the entire 500 sentences, you're also learning all that.
For example, there are ~180 grammatical points for JLPT L2, and another 100 or so for L1. Many of these have multiple forms, so even with only one sentence for each form, you're talking ~500 sentences just for grammar. In the time it takes to create that many flashcards, it seems like I could be getting a lot else done.
Don't take n+1 too literally; if you're learning a new conjugation to a form you already understand, for example, that certainly doesn't seem like it makes a full 1.
Edit: regarding "why not just reread the book", let me clarify something: are you satisfied of the potential effectiveness of SRS use in general, or is the issue that that's under question? Because if you are satisfied of it, this question should answer itself.
~J
Learning Sentences - Chandlerhimself - 2009-03-16
Matthew Wrote:Unless you are reviewing using an SRS system, you'll most likely forget what you learned. The only other way is to review it more often which just wastes more time. You can SRS your book review yourself and write down the intervals and what day you should study what point on a sheet of paper, but that sounds like a lot of work. You could also put a reminder into ANKI saying review grammar point "so an so", but I wouldn't do this because I have to be in my room or carry this book with me where ever I go and it breaks my flow to open a book while I'm reviewing.saizen Wrote:Let me clarify what I mean... A typical Japanese textbook has many short readings, and the grammar section contains sample sentences also. If I want to review them, I can just read the textbook again. In the time it takes to type up every single sentence from a reading into flashcards, I could have covered even more material.Matthew Wrote:Has anyone actually made any real progress with this method? It seems extremely time-consuming for the amount of actual benefit.You best believe I have seen results with this. My reading comprehension has shot through the freaking roof on this method.
For example, there are ~180 grammatical points for JLPT L2, and another 100 or so for L1. Many of these have multiple forms, so even with only one sentence for each form, you're talking ~500 sentences just for grammar. In the time it takes to create that many flashcards, it seems like I could be getting a lot else done.
To put it in perspective..5 months ago(when i finished hesig and started sentences) i couldn't read japanese subs, with a japanese movie going..but just last weekend (roughly 1000 sentences mark) I watched a movie with japanese subtitles and I could say with the subs I understood like 80% of the movie. Without subs (which is what i normally do) it goes down to about 40-50% comprehension.
In my experience so far speaking ability doesn't go up so much but I find that the things I do know how to say are gradually increasing and the speed at which I say them are a lot faster. You have "memorized" sentences..so you are no longer thinking about rules (well not as much) when you speak ..therefore speaking speed has gone up, this is my theory. And the grammar just starts to make sense..nobody can explain that phenomenom(sp?) but everyone can agree that it is there.
Another point is, you don't have to spend so much time typing up sentences. There are plenty of free dictionaries. Just look up a word(grammar point, etc) and copy and paste it into your SRS. It only takes about 15 to 30 sec per example. If you do it that way you can get 500 grammar points done in 250min(a little over 4hrs) or less. Although that seems like a lot, it's not much when you think about the fact that you'll have a 93% to 96% retention. Small price to pay IMO.
Learning Sentences - rich_f - 2009-03-17
From my experience:
Active vs. passive vocabulary: Your passive vocabulary is always going to be much larger than your active vocabulary, and some of your passive vocabulary is going to be weaker (or more passive) than other bits until you encounter it more often. I think of it as a very deep lake full of fish you're trying to reel in. Some of the fish stay at the bottom and never see the light of day, because you never try to bring them up, and some will slowly struggle to the surface as you keep trying to reel them in. (Or something.)
Don't limit your Japanese to the SRS. Go read books in Japanese. Encounter it in the "wild." When you start seeing vocab you're SRSing in the wild, you'll remember it better. (This point cannot be stressed enough.) This is where I agree with Khatz. I ditched all of my English-language books which I read for entertainment and I force myself to read in Japanese for entertainment now. I started with manga with furigana in it, and now I'm up to light novels. I still use the dictionary, but not as much as when I started. I noticed it made a huge difference. (The downside is that now I don't spend as much time SRSing!)
The SRS reading method won't necessarily help your spoken Japanese. To me it feels like they're two separate skills. I can read/write Japanese pretty well, my listening is kind of "meh," but since I don't practice speaking enough, that area has remained my weak spot. SRSing a crapton has not improved it. (7000 cards and counting.)
I agree about TVJapan, if you can afford it. It's like $25/month or so in the US, but the variety is good in that you encounter a wild assortment of different vocabulary, from news to samurai drama, to dieting fad stuff. (But "Kawaii" frightens the hell out of me.)
Learning Sentences - Evil_Dragon - 2009-03-17
Matthew Wrote:Has anyone actually made any real progress with this method? It seems extremely time-consuming for the amount of actual benefit.I learned Japanese for around 2 years in university before I started to try out sentences as opposed to single vocabulary items, SRS instead of occasional flashcard reviews, Japanese-Japanese instead of Japanese-German/English and just spending a lot more time with stuff in Japanese. When I started to play videogames and read manga it I was completely lost. After about 5 months most manga don't pose a threat to me anymore.
To me at least it works a lot better and of course it is more fun.
Learning Sentences - Thora - 2009-03-17
Asriel Wrote:2. Unknown kanji words.At your level, you might want to take a look at the "Kanji in Context" books. They're meant for intermediate students who want to focus on kanji in sentences. No audio, but they cover the full jouyou kanji and the order/grouping is very well done. (Not every word has a sentence, but some don't really need it).
I consider myself to be a high intermediate, maybe advanced Japanese student, so grammar isn't really a problem. My kanji is shit, so I'm doing RTK, but i'm only about 550 in, so there's a lot of words that I want to use that I haven't learned the kanji for.
Also, consider using the Substitute Keyword greasemonkey script and substituting Japanese words you already know for the English keyword as you go along. This helps avoid some of confusing English keyword synonyms. There's also an Anki deck of Japanese keywords for RTK prepared by Wrightak (see Japanese Keywords thread).
Eventually, a Japanese keyword list is a pretty efficient way to maintain your ability to write each kanji (the benefit woodwojr mentioned). No need to write out every SRS sentence/word.
Good luck!