+- kanji koohii FORUM (http://forum.koohii.com)
+-- Forum: Learning Japanese (http://forum.koohii.com/forum-4.html)
+--- Forum: The Japanese language (http://forum.koohii.com/forum-10.html)
+--- Thread: JLPT2 Grammar - How To Prepare (/thread-2578.html)
Pages:
1
2
JLPT2 Grammar - How To Prepare - stevesayskanpai - 2009-02-13
I've been considering three books-
- The UNICOM Grammar Book
- The どの時どう使う Book
- The Intermediate Grammar Dictionary book (of the Red, Yellow and Blue series- do you know the one I mean?)
If anyone has used these and can offer any advice, particularly in how they overlap or complement each other that would be great.
Cheers,
JLPT2 Grammar - How To Prepare - ghinzdra - 2009-02-13
-the main feature of the UNICOM book is the cd If you have a ipod (and you feel like reviewing in the street) and/or you are using anki then you can consider it....
The depth of grammar points tackled is ok but it's clearly below kanzen master which has a very thorough presentation of some points : it can give you up to 5 different use of a very specific expression! it's even a bit confusing as some of those come up rarely and some of the distinction are VERY subtle . For instance while UNICOM gives only one use for かぎり ( as long as ) and とともに (in the same time) Kanzen gives 4 and 3 different uses . Actually even if I do think that Kanzen has more depth , it's not so unbalanced : it's just that the UNICOM book under a single title mix different uses while kanzen makes a clear distinction (かぎり use A : するうち 2 two sentences use B 範囲をしめす 3 sentences , 限界まで use C 4 sentences use D なければ and so on ) .
So as far as I'm concerned I would say that the UNICOM is more useful if you already have something else and need more sentences exemple or you want to review with your SRS....But I wouldn't take it as a standalone book.
- どの時どう使う covers far more than 2KYUU. It's designed for someone willing to pass the 2KYUU and the 1KYUU in a row . If I m not mistaken the index makes a clear distinction between 1KYUU and 2KYUU grammar points. So in the long run I think it's worth the investment .
I think I heard about or took a look at the intermadiate grammar dictionary book....
not bad but it's like most of the book available out there : they don't have a competitive edge . You could have as well took another one it would'nt make a bit of a difference . It's not designed specifically for the 2KYUU , it covers less than the どの時どう使う , it doesn't provide a remarkable insight in expressions.... It's just well done . there is a gap between the 3KYUU and the 2KYUU : you should avoid spending too much time on the grammar because kanji and reading will take you a lot a time too . So you'd better go with a specifically designed 2KYUU manual .
JLPT2 Grammar - How To Prepare - pm215 - 2009-02-13
No opinion on the others, but I have used both the DIJG and the Kanzen Master book that ghinzdra mentioned.
DIJG I think is a good reference work; the points it covers it generally covers in pretty good detail. However it doesn't cover all of JLPT2 grammar, and I expect it covers some stuff not in JLPT2.
KM is not too bad -- since it's targeted at JLPT2 it covers everything you need, and it includes in-the-style-of-the-JLPT quizzes. For each grammar point they give basic meaning, what verb form etc it connects to, and a handful of examples. However, the 'meaning' can be rather brief; my pet example is ~をめぐって, which they define as ~を中心にそれに関係あることについて. That's true as far as it goes, and probably enough to get JLPT questions right, but completely misses the thing that makes it not just a synonym of について (which is that it's usually concerning a dispute, argument, etc).
So I think I'd recommend that if you get KM you also get some other book which covers the grammar in a little more depth, for a 'second opinion' on it.
I've just bought this 日本語文型辞典 on the advice of my last Japanese teacher. It ought to arrive within the next month or so -- if I remember I'll let you know what it's like.
JLPT advice in general: there have been some forum threads on it which are probably worth digging up. I reckon the reading/grammar section is the easiest place to push your marks up if you're a borderline pass. You'll need to know a pile of grammar points including what verb tenses they require, but you won't need the subtle details that would let you actually *use* them naturally (which is probably why KM omits them).
JLPT2 Grammar - How To Prepare - Jarvik7 - 2009-02-13
Personally I think Kanzen Master is crap and have no idea where it got its good reputation. It's also incredibly dull.
I used ASK's series of prep books (日本語総まとめ問題集2級〜) for vocab, kanji(I actually just used it for MORE vocab since I had finished RTK), and reading comprehension (there is also a grammar book but I never studied grammar for jlpt). Each book is split up into a "lesson" for each day, for a total of 8 weeks. It keeps your interest by varying the manner in which stuff is presented to you. Each day has a quiz at the end, and the end of the week has a test of actual JLPT2 questions /w a 15min time limit.
These + Anki = easy pass.
JLPT2 Grammar - How To Prepare - KristinHolly - 2009-02-13
How do you test these things in Anki? Do you show yourself the grammar point and ask yourself to give an explanation? Or do you give yourself sample test questions to answer?
edit: I didn't notice before that Jarvik said he didn't study grammar for JLPT, sorry. I'm still curious -- there are so many lovely grammar books.
JLPT2 Grammar - How To Prepare - Tobberoth - 2009-02-13
Kanzen Master > All. Complete, simple to use.
Just open the book, pick a grammar point, read everything about it, put all the examples sentences into Anki = Done. The example sentences are pretty hard, exactly the kind of sentences you find in the grammar section of the actual JLPT test, so it helps tremendously.
I don't share Jarviks opinion at all, it isn't any bit more dull than any other textbook, it IS however WAY more effective than most.
JLPT2 Grammar - How To Prepare - Jarvik7 - 2009-02-13
Kristin: There is a JLPT2 grammar deck on the forums somewhere if you search for it. To me it seemed really overwrought/too busy so I never ended up using it. I already knew all of the JLPT2 grammar fairly well (if not in active lexicon) anyways so I decided to just focus on vocab.
JLPT2 Grammar - How To Prepare - mentat_kgs - 2009-02-13
I'd recommend reading a novel, very slowly, enjoy not only the plot but also the _language_.
Read paying attention to every word. Every particle.
Enjoy the effect of the usage of every single word.
Reread.
There are some audio novels here in the resources section of the forum. Natsume Souseki is a genius and his text flow is awesome.
JLPT2 Grammar - How To Prepare - duder - 2009-02-13
i used the kanzen, the アスク 日本語総まとめ問題集, and どの時どう使う
the kanzen book is a bad source for grammar because the vocabulary is really high and makes understanding the nuance very difficult. Unless you already have a really strong ( and i mean strong) vocab - its very much a waste of time.
i essentially memorized the アスク by typing out all the sample sentences, having friends record them, and used an srs. The vocab was at a level that i could grasp the nuance of each point. When i couldn't, i consulted どの時どう使う.This book is really a good place to start learning level 2 because it has some drills and is ordered rather logically.
I also use どの時どう使う and find that it gives really good examples and covers many grammar points that neither of the other ones do. After taking practice tests, you will realize that the test will cover grammar that you have never seen, and that is where this book comes in really handy. It has some good English definitions to accompany it.
i should note that while i havent gotten my results back - i ate the grammar section alive. it was by far the easiest part of the test for me.
JLPT2 Grammar - How To Prepare - Tobberoth - 2009-02-13
duder Wrote:i used the kanzen, the アスク 日本語総まとめ問題集, and どの時どう使うThe Kanzen master books are supposed to be used when studying for JLPT and if you want to pass JLPT2, you need to know the words. It's not like the kanzen master book uses anything other than JLPT2 vocab so I'd say, if you find the vocab too hard to learn the grammar in it, it's probably the vocabulary you should worry about.
the kanzen book is a bad source for grammar because the vocabulary is really high and makes understanding the nuance very difficult. Unless you already have a really strong ( and i mean strong) vocab - its very much a waste of time.
It's also worth noting that if you only know the grammar points in very simple sentences, you will probably not be able to pick the right one on the actual tests since those sentences are always about as hard as the ones in Kanzen Master.
JLPT2 Grammar - How To Prepare - duder - 2009-02-13
i disagree because it is much easier to learn vocabulary than it is to learn grammar rules - simply look at the numbers. its something like 3-4000 words vs. 192ish grammar points for level 2. if you understand the grammar point in albeit a simple context - you are more likely to be able to recall it later.
but you are right to suggest that a high level of vocab is required to pass the test. I simply disagree that a high level of vocab is needed to learn the grammar.
To me, when I'm learning grammar for the first time, I don't want to learn a shit ton of new words at the same time - it really makes it harder than it needs to be. Once you "get it" its just a simple matter of vocab.
kanzen makes it harder to learn the grammar initially. Of course I can easily read it now, but it was a brick wall when i started. the other books are much more accessible to someone starting their JLPT 2 studies.
JLPT2 Grammar - How To Prepare - etpan - 2009-02-13
I also use Kanzen Master for reference than true learning, and I plan to use it for JLPT revisions. For the actual learning, I use the J301 and J501 books, they combine vocab and grammar, with English explanations so no confusion. I also sentence-mine sentences from these books in Anki.
JLPT2 Grammar - How To Prepare - yukamina - 2009-02-13
Jarvik7 Wrote:I used ASK's series of prep books (日本語総まとめ問題集2級〜) for vocab, kanji(I actually just used it for MORE vocab since I had finished RTK), and reading comprehension (there is also a grammar book but I never studied grammar for jlpt). Each book is split up into a "lesson" for each day, for a total of 8 weeks. It keeps your interest by varying the manner in which stuff is presented to you. Each day has a quiz at the end, and the end of the week has a test of actual JLPT2 questions /w a 15min time limit.I have these books for vocab, grammar, and reading comprehension. I didn't realize the tests used real JLPT2 questions :o Most of the questions are pretty easy.
These + Anki = easy pass.
JLPT2 Grammar - How To Prepare - ghinzdra - 2009-02-13
duder Wrote:i used the kanzen, the アスク 日本語総まとめ問題集, and どの時どう使うI have to disagree with the "vocab difficulty" point.
the kanzen book is a bad source for grammar because the vocabulary is really high and makes understanding the nuance very difficult. Unless you already have a really strong ( and i mean strong) vocab - its very much a waste of time.
i essentially memorized the アスク by typing out all the sample sentences, having friends record them, and used an srs. The vocab was at a level that i could grasp the nuance of each point. When i couldn't, i consulted どの時どう使う.This book is really a good place to start learning level 2 because it has some drills and is ordered rather logically.
I also use どの時どう使う and find that it gives really good examples and covers many grammar points that neither of the other ones do. After taking practice tests, you will realize that the test will cover grammar that you have never seen, and that is where this book comes in really handy. It has some good English definitions to accompany it.
i should note that while i havent gotten my results back - i ate the grammar section alive. it was by far the easiest part of the test for me.
I used the KM for the 2KYUU , I put the whole stuff in Anki , and I always did very well at the JLPT mock test . I never had real probem with the vocabulary. Well I must ackwnoledge I was already pretty much avanced into the KO2001 books at this time (I was close to 1000 kanji ) but it's not like it's an extroardinary knowledge . As KO2001 is obsessed about efficiency and get rid of kanjis usually studied within classical teaching I would say on the contrary that someone who is not even able to deal with KO2001 ,coupled with RTK the quickest path to kanji proficiency , and thus with KM , has nothing to do with the 2KYUU test.
Once again the 2KYUU is the border between dabbler and people really psyched out about japanese . If someone has trouble with KM vocabulary he should seriously consider put more effort in his kanji studies in a way or another.... because the 2KYUU won't be easier .
JLPT2 Grammar - How To Prepare - duder - 2009-02-13
this thread was asking about studying the grammar section - not on passing the JLPT as a whole. There are other threads that do that.
yes vocabulary is essential to pass the test. However a large understanding of vocabulary and strong grasp of JLPT 2 kanji is not essential to learn the JLPT 2 grammar.
the kanzen book makes the grammar seem harder than it is for someone starting out to learn the JLPT 2 grammar. It is only a good source for those who are just about ready to take the test or already have robust vocabularies. ---it is not for anyone who is at a JLPT 3 level
But anyway that you choose to go -- make sure you srs the shit out of your sample sentences.
JLPT2 Grammar - How To Prepare - stevesayskanpai - 2009-02-15
Wow thanks for all the replies since I last checked this thread. I'm in Japan now so buying books now. I agree with the very final comment, about SRSing the shit out of whatever I do choose to use!
I think the UNICOM vocab book is really fantastic- the way it groups kanji and compounds. My plan is as follows-
1. Finish Heisig
2. SRS the UNICOM vocab book
3. Grammar
That being the case, I have a fair bit of time before I have to make a grammar choice. Having said that どの時どう使う looks like a great reference book- the big choice I guess is between UNICOM and Kanzen マスター for grammar points. Seems like both have there pros and cons- maybe I should get and use both? Kanzen seems to divide opinion more than UNICOM though!
JLPT2 Grammar - How To Prepare - pm215 - 2009-02-16
stevesayskanpai Wrote:the big choice I guess is between UNICOM and Kanzen マスター for grammar points. Seems like both have there pros and cons- maybe I should get and use both?If you're actually in Japan then hopefully you can find a bookshop that has both so you can browse through them. Pick some grammar point you already know that isn't completely trivial, and see if you like how they've handled it, the examples they've picked, and so on...
JLPT2 Grammar - How To Prepare - chuubaka - 2009-02-16
Unfortunately, I don't think there is any one resource that "nails it" for JLPT 2級 grammar. Unless you have financial constraints, I would recommend the following:
1) 完全マスター as your primary study source. The best selection of grammatical structures likely to appear on the test, plus good example sentences. Unfortunately, the definitions are sometimes too brief to convey the nuance of the structure, and distinguish it from similar sturctures, a problem that is compounded by meager cross-referencing. For example, there are 8 or 9 variations of かぎる, and the various 上's-- 上に、上で、 上では、 with different meanings depending on whether they combine with nouns or verbs, present or past tense, etc. You will have to work out the differences and distinctions mainly on your own. (Fortunately, 完全マスター１級 seems much better organized.) I have also bought どんな時どう使う, which at least organizes the structures into similar meaning functional groups, but its definitions are if anything more cryptic than 完全, plus it doesn't focus as tightly on what you need to know for the test.
2) So you need a back-up, and for me that back-up was 日本語文型辞典, published by くろしお出版. It's all in Japanese, which might seem scary to some, but it shouldn't be where this book is concerned. All the definitions are precisely, concisely written in Japanese that should be well within the grasp of anyone hoping to pass 2級, plus the example sentences are marvelous. Would I rather have had a comprehensive resource in English? Yes, but...
3) That resource wasn't a Dictionary of Advanced Japanese Grammar or a Dictionary of Intermediate Japanese Grammar. Both books do a tremendous job of explaining the structures that they cover, but they cover only half to two-thirds of the structures on the exam. Plus they are expensive, especially in tandem, so it becomes a question of bang for your buck. If money isn't an issue, then by all means, purchase both. Within their scope, they are the best Japanese grammar resources in the English language.
4) Another good optional back-up source in English is Handbook of Modern Japanese Grammar, by Yoko M. McClain, which unfortunately is out of print, but fortunately still widely available through used book sellers. It covers a lot of ground in a well organized, comprehensive, concise manner. It has outstanding tables and charts that pull together important concepts-- the tables of humble and honorific verbs are almost worth the price alone.
Finally, I agree with other posters that if you find the vocabulary for 完全マスター too difficult, then you probably should be concentrating on vocabulary acquisition rather than grammar.
頑張って!!!
Chewie
JLPT2 Grammar - How To Prepare - Jarvik7 - 2009-02-16
I found just looking at Kanzen Master to be more difficult than taking the actual test. The reading book is ridiculous! It is magnitudes harder than the real test and the time limits are just silly. In that regard it's a good challenging resource for actually learning Japanese (which is why I kept my set), but if your immediate goal is to just pass JLPT then there are better books out there in my opinion.
I second the recommendation for the dictionaries of basic/intermediate/advanced grammar. I think saying 1/3 of the grammar points are missing is being a little bit too strict. The only ones I couldn't find were either obvious compounds or variations of other things that are in the book.
Here is another good resource. The sentences are made up by the non-native author so you should be a bit wary though. http://thedailyyoji.blogspot.com/search/label/2%20kyuu
JLPT2 Grammar - How To Prepare - wrightak - 2009-02-16
I took one sentence out of each grammar point in the Unicom book and put it into Anki as a fill-in-the-gap exercise.
E.g.
Q: 「ドライブ＿＿＿道順を覚えたらどうですか？」
A: 101がてら
～をするときに、のついでに
「AがてらB」＝「Aをするときに、その機会を利用してBもする」
Worked for me.
Of course, you’ve got to make sure you understand the grammar point and the sentence before you shove it into Anki.
JLPT2 Grammar - How To Prepare - Tobberoth - 2009-02-16
A note about Dictionary of Advanced Japanese Grammar though: Many of the example sentences are VERY hard and long, much harder than the ones in Kanzen Master. As for the Intermediate one, I haven't tried it so I don't know how the situation is there.
JLPT2 Grammar - How To Prepare - chochajin - 2009-02-16
Just a short question, sorry!
chuubaka Wrote:2) So you need a back-up, and for me that back-up was 日本語文型辞典, published by くろしお出版.Is it this one? There are quite a few on amazon.
I remember I wanted to buy that book for the longest time, but I wasn't sure which one exactly it is everybody was talking about back then.
JLPT2 Grammar - How To Prepare - chuubaka - 2009-02-16
chochajin Wrote:Chochajin:chuubaka Wrote:2) So you need a back-up, and for me that back-up was 日本語文型辞典, published by くろしお出版.Is it this one? There are quite a few on amazon.
I remember I wanted to buy that book for the longest time, but I wasn't sure which one exactly it is everybody was talking about back then.
Yes, that's the one.
Chewie
JLPT2 Grammar - How To Prepare - albion - 2009-02-16
Quote:日本語文型辞典I'd second the recommendation for that. I love that book.
JLPT2 Grammar - How To Prepare - kfmfe04 - 2009-02-16
I agree with duder - KZM grammar seemed really tough when I was starting out on JLPT2. Unicom seemed like it was much easier to understand. However, after 2-3 iterations over Unicom, KZM grammar is very useful (gives greater detail on usage).
duder Wrote:i disagree because it is much easier to learn vocabulary than it is to learn grammar rules - simply look at the numbers. its something like 3-4000 words vs. 192ish grammar points for level 2. if you understand the grammar point in albeit a simple context - you are more likely to be able to recall it later.
but you are right to suggest that a high level of vocab is required to pass the test. I simply disagree that a high level of vocab is needed to learn the grammar.
To me, when I'm learning grammar for the first time, I don't want to learn a shit ton of new words at the same time - it really makes it harder than it needs to be. Once you "get it" its just a simple matter of vocab.
kanzen makes it harder to learn the grammar initially. Of course I can easily read it now, but it was a brick wall when i started. the other books are much more accessible to someone starting their JLPT 2 studies.