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+--- Thread: Keyword -> Kanji or Keyword + Story -> Kanji ? (/thread-2514.html)
Keyword -> Kanji or Keyword + Story -> Kanji ? - tokyostyle - 2009-02-02
[Resolved below.]
Keyword -> Kanji or Keyword + Story -> Kanji ? - Evil_Dragon - 2009-02-02
I did Keyword -> Kanji and it worked quite well for me. I'm still in the middle of RTK3 and usually have around 1950-1960 RTK1 cards in my 4 or more reviews stash. Failing about 5-7 each day. I guess if you want to do Keyword -> Kanji you need to keep similar keywords as much apart from each other as possible. But sometimes when there are two very similar keywords and I can't remember which one refers to which story (because they are interchangeable) I just write both of them. Why bother when there is practically no difference?
Keyword -> Kanji or Keyword + Story -> Kanji ? - woodwojr - 2009-02-02
I use this method.
~J
Keyword -> Kanji or Keyword + Story -> Kanji ? - Tobberoth - 2009-02-02
I wouldn't do it, I'm pretty sure it's detrimental to long term memory. You have to work harder to remember a kanji without the story (MUCH harder) and you will have to remember the story from the keyword. This helps you remember the story (which in turn is what helps you remember the kanji). If you see the story at the same time as the keyword, all you have to do is read the story and you'll know the kanji. When you need to write the kanji IRL, you will not have a story to read and in all probability, you won't remember it.
EDIT: As for keeping keywords separate, just get the substitute keyword grasemonkey addon and add some information.
Keyword -> Kanji or Keyword + Story -> Kanji ? - Juukyuu - 2009-02-02
I'm still in progress with RTK 1 but I've been using both the keyword and the story on the question side, just because the story is there it doesn't mean i have to read it.
The more i do my reviews the less i look at the stories, until i just don't need them anymore.
The main kanji i use the stories for are recently added ones, as they get older i keep the story there but never actually read it.
Keyword -> Kanji or Keyword + Story -> Kanji ? - Nukemarine - 2009-02-02
Since it's you grading yourself, it's not cheating. You decide when a card is right or wrong (or wrong, hard, just right or easy in case of Anki).
However, I'll add here what I wrote in the other discussion: Add more description to your keywords and if need be put what kanji that you are NOT looking for in case of similar kanji.
With Anki, there's a "on hover" coding for your cards (I think) so you can create
Hover for primitives -->________
Hover for story -->_______
Then make the call on how you grade cards based on the hints.
Keyword -> Kanji or Keyword + Story -> Kanji ? - EnjukuBlack - 2009-02-03
I think the reason even Heisig has the stories there, but upside down, is to emphasize the fact that the stories are there for when you are starting to learn the kanji. Eventually, however, you want to phase yourself away from relying on the stories all the time.
So, if your stories are upside down (or written in red and you cover the card in one of those red plastic thingies so you can't see it until you choose to), it gives you the chance to try and remember the character without using the story.
Once you realize that you can't remember it, you fall back on the story. But you want to try to get away from always falling back on them as soon as possible.
In fact, the whole process of studying the kanji is rather a process of internalizing them. The process, then, might be thought of best like this (assuming we are starting from zero):
Step 1) Study the Keyword + Story -> kanji
Step 2) Study the Keyword -> kanji
Step 3) Study the Keyword + (a) sample Japanese word(s) -> kanji
Step 4) Study (a) sample Japanese word(s) -> kanji
Step 5) Abandon studying kanji because you've reached your goal in kanji study (whether that be reading/writing at a native level or passing level 1 of the kanken)
**If you came to Heisig mid-way through your Japanese studies (like me) you might want to skip to a later step and slightly modify the process. For example, I jumped right to a modified step 4 (studying sample words + stories -> kanji before dropping the stories when I was sufficiently remembering how to write the characters), since I was already quite familiar with most of the meanings and readings of the characters and only wanted to remember how to write them from memory better. But even in this case, the process is basically the same - a gradual, steady movement away from memory 'crutches' towards actual knowledge.
Keyword -> Kanji or Keyword + Story -> Kanji ? - Ryuujin27 - 2009-02-03
So I think I'll give my opinion here, since I'm one of those guys that created a thread like this before.
I have two separate feelings on this... one for it and one against it.
For it:
I very much like this idea because it generally makes blowing through the kanji very, very easy. As Khatzu said in his post, it's not cheating because if you show that card to someone who doesn't do this, will they be able to write the kanji based on the story clue? No, of course not. So you're still accomplishing a lot.
So I ended up doing this for a bit, throwing the story in to kanji that I failed and seeing how it went from there. Which leads to my second argument...
Against it:
Now that I'm another 500 kanji past the point where I started to do this (and haven't done it for the past 300 or so), I can see how it can be slightly detrimental. Basically, all the kanji that I include the story for, I can never think of without reading the story. Whereas when I fail a kanji without the story, I usually can memorize it within another 1-2 failings (using anki).
However, I attribute this to one main factor: When the story is there, I never make the effort to enforce it in my visual memory, thus never actually creating a clear story to remember. Furthermore, when the story is there, I only concentrate on the words, not the image.
So, in a frazzled conclusion, I'm going to suggest that if you do use the story on the front method, that you make sure that when you review, you take a moment to reinforce the visual image. Then you should be able to skip over the problem of being unable to function on that keyword without the story.
Hope this helps!
P.S. - I'm in the process of reinforcing the images right now on the ones I put the story for. Good news: Seems to be working positively so far!
Keyword -> Kanji or Keyword + Story -> Kanji ? - woodwojr - 2009-02-03
For what it's worth, part of my adjustment to the method recently has been totally abandoning visual images. Seems to be working so far, though I'm using a thoroughly heterodox approach; your mileage may vary.
~J
Keyword -> Kanji or Keyword + Story -> Kanji ? - Jarvik7 - 2009-02-04
If you're going to do story->kanji you might as well just do kanji->kanji. You don't have to call it cheating on the cards if you don't want, but you're cheating yourself by just going through the motions.
If you can't remember the story for a kanji when you see the keyword, FAIL IT. Then afterwards go back and review/revise the story you used to have. Adding more detail to the keyword is also a good idea for easily confused keywords.