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Word order - AmberUK - 2009-01-24
I have noticed that a number of peoples stories don't seem to worry about the order of the primitives. I have also noticed that Heisig doesn't seem to bother with order either. This seems especially weird in his vol 2 when he uses the phonetic sounds to give mnemonics for the Japanese readings. I didn't keep an eye on the order but later on I have found some kanji I just keep getting the wrong way round so have had to relearn - spit feels like it should be soil first and flavour just feels a weird way too. Why is there nothing said about order in the book or was there? I am lucky that I am at 900 and have started to have problems. I think that if I had finished and had problems I would have have had too much to go over again to want to. I have even started to redo some stories based on what I make mistakes on. So stocks for some reason I always want to write as shells, vermilion not tree, vermilion.
Word order - pm215 - 2009-01-24
There are some remarks on placement just after frame 179, and a brief mention in the introduction to chapter 11, plus notes in various individual frames on specific points.
I find that mostly it's not a problem to get the placement right, and not having to worry about order in stories makes it much easier to come up with a memorable story. For the handful where I have problems ('delusion' seems to have been a particular issue recently) I fiddle with the story or just come up with an additional hint about placement.
'spit' and 'flavor' both follow the most common primitive placement rule: left hand side gives the general area of meaning (in this case both 'spit' and 'flavor' are concepts related to the mouth), right hand side is (or was once) pronunciation cue.
I can't imagine anybody getting to the end of the book and only then finding they had problems with order of primitives -- you'd be finding that you were failing kanji for wrong-order a lot, and update and improve the stories for the kanji you were getting wrong...so you'd correct the problems as you went along.
Word order - timcampbell - 2009-01-24
There are a few kanji where I've had difficulty with primitive placement, and in those cases I've specifically worked the placement into the story, by imaging something above, or beside something else, for example. Other than that, the primitives follow pretty standard rules for placement, which you start to figure out even if you aren't actually told them. It becomes second nature after a while.
Word order - Nukemarine - 2009-01-24
I concur. If the placement of a paticular primitive is giving you trouble, work it into the story better. I had issues recently with Jealousy (is it woman or stone first), Reef (Stone takes entire left side) and Paint (Soil takes entire bottom, Water is the same height as Too Much).
Most of the time it's not needed though.
Plus, don't be too afraid to make a change to many of your stories. I do this if a better primitive image takes hold (Batman for person, Tin Man for state of mind, ET for finger). However, I'll change up stories for them as they come along (and is needed). Same with placement problems, I just wait until it fails fue to the problem. If it didn't fail, must not have been a problem, no?
Word order - liosama - 2009-01-25
I wouldn't fail kanji for the wrong order, i don't know why people do. You got the story right, pass the character. Once you become more familiar with readings, characters, words, order will be a matter of feel and intuition rather than story.
Word order - AmberUK - 2009-01-25
liosama Wrote:I wouldn't fail kanji for the wrong order, i don't know why people do. You got the story right, pass the character. Once you become more familiar with readings, characters, words, order will be a matter of feel and intuition rather than story.really?
Word order - pm215 - 2009-01-25
liosama Wrote:I wouldn't fail kanji for the wrong order, i don't know why people do.I fail wrong-order, always, because my goal here is to remember how to write the kanji. If I've put things in the wrong order I haven't written the kanji correctly and I need to get more practice. Otherwise you really might end up in the situation AmberUK suggested where you get to kanji 2042 and realise you're getting the order wrong way too much (and furthermore you've been subtly reinforcing your memory of the wrong-way-round kanji by continuing to write it out wrongly without correction).
You're right that order mostly doesn't need to be put into the story, but the ones where it doesn't you weren't failing anyway, and the ones where it does benefit from SRS-spacing the same as anything else.
Word order - isharabash - 2009-03-30
I know I'm necro-threading...
but I'm having this problem BIG TIME...
I just did a review, and everything was going good, 9 remembered, 1 or 2 missed, than I started forgetting order and what not and failed the majority of the rest : (
Is changing the story the only way to fix it?
Word order - Ben_Nielson - 2009-03-30
Rework your stories to account for order. Most likely, the extra attention you give to that story/kanji will be more helpful than putting it in the right order. But whatever works.
(fyi, I put -all- of my stories in order. If a primitive was in an unusual place, I also worked that into the story)
Word order - AmberUK - 2009-03-30
I started to do them in order when I first noticed a problem. But I still get obey and instruction the wrong way round, both with each other and the primitive order. I have tried over and over to do a story in order. I have drawn a picture for one of them (see even now I forget which). I think the problem is that obey and instruction are hard to separate in my mind. Its much easier when they are both here, but when you do the reps I find that you see the word, think of the story and forget to recall the other story to check its not that one. If that makes any sense.
I wondered if there was a list of importance of primitives. So tree would always come first, unless its with sun (not sure if thats a pairing)?
Word order - Tobberoth - 2009-03-30
isharabash Wrote:I know I'm necro-threading...No. Just keeping it in the SRS system will fix it eventually as you rely less on the story and more on your visual memory of the kanji itself.
but I'm having this problem BIG TIME...
I just did a review, and everything was going good, 9 remembered, 1 or 2 missed, than I started forgetting order and what not and failed the majority of the rest : (
Is changing the story the only way to fix it?
However, working it into the story is a definite shortcut. I would recommend it for kanji you notice you have extra trouble with.
Word order - pm215 - 2009-03-30
AmberUK Wrote:But I still get obey and instruction the wrong way round, both with each other and the primitive orderI dunno if it helps, but for the primitive order:
* 頁 never appears on the left side in any kanji, ever
* 言 almost never appears on the right side in any kanji (about the only exception is 信 where it is ousted by the person radical which is another only-on-the-left; occasionally it is in the middle as with 獄).
Confusion between two primitives of similar meaning is a fairly common topic here; searching the forum might find some useful suggestions for that part.
Word order - Tobberoth - 2009-03-30
pm215 Wrote:While I agree that rules like those are very important, there are more exceptions with 言. 警 for example.AmberUK Wrote:But I still get obey and instruction the wrong way round, both with each other and the primitive orderI dunno if it helps, but for the primitive order:
* 頁 never appears on the left side in any kanji, ever
* 言 almost never appears on the right side in any kanji (about the only exception is 信 where it is ousted by the person radical which is another only-on-the-left; occasionally it is in the middle as with 獄).
Confusion between two primitives of similar meaning is a fairly common topic here; searching the forum might find some useful suggestions for that part.
Word order - Codexus - 2009-03-30
You don't always need to change the story completely. Just think of an explanation of why the primitive is in that position using elements from your story.
Example: 礎 - First, I used a story about the grove of trees being demolished for making room for the zoo's cornerstones. When I got the trees position wrong, I added the idea that trees were sent flying in the air by the use of dynamite to explain why they are above the zoo.
Word order - pm215 - 2009-03-30
Tobberoth Wrote:...that's why I said "never on the right" rather than "always on the left" :-) You're right that I should have mentioned those on-the-bottom kanji too, though.pm215 Wrote:* 言 almost never appears on the right side in any kanji (about the only exception is 信 where it is ousted by the person radical which is another only-on-the-left; occasionally it is in the middle as with 獄).While I agree that rules like those are very important, there are more exceptions with 言. 警 for example.