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What makes a kanji "difficult" to the Japanese? - _Qbe_ - 2006-11-25
The other day I was talking with one of my conversation partners in Japan. The subject of kanji learning came up, and I mentioned that I had just learned 摩, as in 摩滅. She said, "Oh, that's a very difficult kanji."
Really? After working at the Heisig method for so long, I don't really consider any kanji (yet) to be difficult: some kanji take a little more work to get into memory.
But it made me wonder: what makes a Japanese person consider some kanji more "difficult" than others? Maybe the "difficult" kanji are those that don't appear as frequently as others? Does anyone know?
What makes a kanji "difficult" to the Japanese? - KANJI - 2006-11-25
You ask an interesting question. I have had similar experiences. I don't have an answer for it; only some ideas. Complex written kanji are complex for anyone of any stripe. That could be part of it. Also, RTK includes some obscure kanji for our benefit, but are rare or infrequently used. Some other kanji have been displaced by kana in everyday use. Interestingly, the young generation has been increasingly using more hiragana according to NHK. Is that simply old news--a function of the generation gap? Or a new trend as the alarmist news about some young workers not knowing certain kanji on instructional signs on industrial or plant machines. And then too, could the Japanese reaction to our kanji prowess be flattery from being overly polite or overly ethnocentric? Finally, even Japanese cannot use kanji error-free; they must rely on dictionaries for help. Take your pick, ha, ha.
What makes a kanji "difficult" to the Japanese? - wrightak - 2006-11-26
I think the main answer to your question is frequency of use. The Japanese will consider characters they don't see much to be difficult. A classic example, mentioned on another thread, is the kanji for rose, ばら. Everyone knows the word, and a lot of people can read the kanji, but the kanji aren't used in any other word at all.
The main answer would be frequency of use but secondary to this would probably be stroke count. High stroke count kanji are obviously more difficult to remember visually.
What makes a kanji "difficult" to the Japanese? - astridtops - 2006-11-26
Or, in addition to the reasons KANJI already mentioned, maybe the Japanese think of the moment the particular kanji was presented to them in their own educational system. According to one of the Appendici in the Kanji Dictionary, 1006 kanji are taught in elementary school. That leaves another 1000 for middle school (and perhaps high school?). A kanji not in the elementary school list might be considered more difficult. I don't know there is another list of what is taught in what year of secondary education, but obviously the last kanji to be added would have a rep for being more difficult (or less useful, it depends of course on the attitude taken towards difficulty/usability).
What makes a kanji "difficult" to the Japanese? - Pangolin - 2006-11-26
I doubt the reason is very mysterious, I would expect that person would consider some commonly used but morphologically more complex kanji NOT to be difficult. In other words difficulty attaches to rarely seen kanji and it's nothing to do with their form per se. I think this is even true for non-Japanese kanji learners like us.
For example, I find 曜 much easier than 摩 despite its 18 strokes and the less-common primitive variants that it contains. But 曜 is Grade 2 and commonly seen compared to 摩.
What makes a kanji "difficult" to the Japanese? - laxxy - 2006-11-27
All of these (complexity, frequency, etc) are important -- they are definitely important for us (I've posted a few statistics showing that before), and most likely for the Japanese as well.
What makes a kanji "difficult" to the Japanese? - Jawful - 2007-02-20
First of all, the kanji 摩 rules 'cause I see it/use it all the time. That's only cause I live in 志摩市 here in 三重県. It was a tough one for me to get written properly so it wasn't disfigured and ugly. I learned to write this in my first weeks of moving so I could write my address properly. I've only started RTK a few weeks ago so I don't know anything else about the kanji at this point, heh.
Anyway, I'll agree that it's probably whether that kanji is common for the person who says it's difficult. However, even among the people living here, I think a few have claimed the difficulty of this same kanji. I will test the theory by writing it in front of more Japanese people and see if I can illicit a response.
What makes a kanji "difficult" to the Japanese? - Jawful - 2007-03-01
I printed off a list of kanji I had learned to show my Japanese teacher. I told her she could test me and she started picking the kanji she thought were difficult. One she made mention of was 享. She said it looks simple but was very difficult to remember. I told her that via this method I won't easily forget it, and I won't confuse it with 京 either. She seems on board with the idea and won't give me any more kanji homework while I'm studying on my own.
What makes a kanji "difficult" to the Japanese? - JimmySeal - 2007-03-01
Jawful Wrote:I printed off a list of kanji I had learned to show my Japanese teacher. I told her she could test me and she started picking the kanji she thought were difficult. One she made mention of was 享. She said it looks simple but was very difficult to remember. I told her that via this method I won't easily forget it, and I won't confuse it with 京 either. She seems on board with the idea and won't give me any more kanji homework while I'm studying on my own.That's pretty awesome, Jawful. Maybe I wouldn't have given up on Heisig the first time I tried it if I hadn't been trying to take a 3d year Japanese course at the same time.
What kind of classes are you taking? Are they private lessons or university lessons or what?
What makes a kanji "difficult" to the Japanese? - dingomick - 2007-03-01
I'm interested to know WHY? and HOW? are certain kanji difficult for Japanese. Meaning? Stroke order? Readings? Writing? Recognition?
For most of us, we're relying only on meaning and writing/stroke order. I imagine most Japanese would recognize a kanji in a compound and know the meaning, but maybe not the pronuciation and/or couldn't write it on demand.
There are many words that have kanji but which are being written only in hiragana, an increasing trend.
Many studies have shown that since the advent of computers, Japanese writing ability has plumetted since the machines do all the work after romaji/kana input.
Here's one that stumped my girlfriend and four various other JHS teachers: 諮.
The only two examples Wakan lists are 諮問, and 諮る which none could pronounce. (though I forgot to ask if they knew the meaning). One of my teachers, who is 60, immediately knew 諮問 (important for politics) but didn't know how to read 諮る even though he could easily assume it's meaning.
Ask a Japanese person to look through your kanji lists and ask why the ones they pick are difficult. I'm curious to know which are listed, and to compare.
What makes a kanji "difficult" to the Japanese? - Jawful - 2007-03-03
JimmySeal Wrote:That's pretty awesome, Jawful. Maybe I wouldn't have given up on Heisig the first time I tried it if I hadn't been trying to take a 3d year Japanese course at the same time.They are community classes by volunteers. I have a private teacher (though 2 others recently joined so now it's a trio) and up until now she was giving me kanji to study to prep me for next Dec's JLPT. I told her to hold off and we can study readings and vocabulary once I finish this book.
What kind of classes are you taking? Are they private lessons or university lessons or what?
What makes a kanji "difficult" to the Japanese? - JimmySeal - 2007-03-04
I don't think it's that hard to figure out what would make kanji difficult for Japanese people. It's a function of frequency and complexity. On one end of the difficulty spectrum you have simple common kanji, on the right you have rare complicated kanji, and everything else is spread out in between.
The other day one of my coworkers was looking over my shoulder while I was studying and saw the character 篤 and asked me what it meant. It seemed he had no idea, though he recognized it from names. On another occasion, it was 拘.
Kanji containing the 虎 radical would probably be trouble because they're not written that often and most people don't have mnemonics in their head for writing it out.
I do know that almost any Japanese adult can read the compound 薔薇, but very few can write it.
What makes a kanji "difficult" to the Japanese? - Wakela - 2007-03-19
Yeah, I think it's definitly frequency.
It is pretty funny when we dash off a kanji with ease that few Japanese people know. My father-in-law had trouble with 夢, which I wouldn't have thought was all that rare. Also,
壱 and 弐 really impress Japanese.
I went to a fancy restaurant with my wife's family. There were kanji on the menu that no body could read, so they had to have the 95-year-old aunt translate into modern Japanese.
My favorite story (and I think I posted it elsewhere) was when I came across じゅく (cram school) in my Japanese class. I asked my teacher if there was a kanji for this, and she said there was, but it's very hard. She wrote it on the board, and got it wrong! Excuse me, but I think that child sitting on the ground next to his chubby friend is a tall child. (塾）.