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+--- Thread: "The ingenious Heisig Method" (/thread-2378.html)
"The ingenious Heisig Method" - KanjiHanzi - 2009-01-04
(I really resent being called a liar, as has happened here when I also resented telling my most previous user name. There was not other reason for this refusal than that it was a rude request I had not intention whatsoever to comply with. As you can see I registered HERE 2007 July 12, but I've had another user name even earlier than that. I have simply lost track of that.)
here is a post from theJapanesePage.com, a site that wasn't supposed to be mentioned here when it was brought up a long time ago. I think it has some merits to post it here now.
http://tinyurl.com/8f3e8x
Post by Suedenjin on Tue 07.10.2007 9:36 am
Ouch! New member jumping into a mine field
I've spent a couple of hours today reading about Heisig and his Remembering the Kanji here, and I am really amazed at the confusion regarding both kanji and Heisig's book. In particular I find it a bit depressing seeing the ignorant and aggressive attacks on what I consider to be a linguistic pioneering work. Really remarkable, indeed.
My own entry point into "kanji" was very simple: I like various ways to write languages. Just like some people collect stamps, I "collect" writing systems. I happened to first pick Japanese, but it could having been Chinese instead.
"Kanji" (or "hanzi", if you prefer) is first of all a writing system with ancient roots. Per se it has very little to do with the Japanese language, apart from the fact that some freaks long ago decided that it would be cool to be able to write the Japanese language in some way or another. Since everything Chinese was popular in Japan at that time, they decided to press a REALLY alien writing system on a TOTALLY different language. I know very little about the Chinese languages, but as far as I've been able to tell there are very few similarities apart from the use of Chinese Characters in both Japanese and Chinese.
So confusing the nature of "kanji" studies and pretending that it's the same as learning the Japanese language is utterly misdirected. On the other hand you will be able to decipher quite a lot of the meaning of both written Japanese and (to a lesser extent) Chinese written/printed material. You are no longer assaulted by a flood of alien lines and dots but are able to see that "this text is about dogs and cats" and so on.
When I first learned a considerable chunk of kanji using Heisig's first book I was really happy to be able to "read" some Japanese texts and get a clue what it was about. Even if his keywords are a bit off target now and then most of them are right on the spot to get the core meaning of the character. Really encouraging if you aim at being able to read Japanese.
My first attempt using the Heisig method broke down at around 1300 kanji learned. Why? Since I didn't take his advice seriously enough and studied the "stories" used as mnemonics, and in particular I was sloppy making up my own stuff after the first 500 kanji. So I went the conventional root and started to Learn Kanji In Context. Since then - several years ago - I've been able to learn several hundred kanji, their meaning, reading and pronunciation In ConText.
The problem for me has been that my knowledge of written Japanese has been a onesided one: can read but cannot write. AND above all I was never able to remember what blasted kanji was used in a particular word and I have been mixing up this kanji with that kanji in absurdum.
So I decided to go back to where I started and learn all kanji in Remembering the Kanji I and this time do it as Heisig advised. Viola! And it works this time! Suddenly I am both able to tell the difference between look-alike kanji when I read and also able to write those words I couldn't remember at all. That's really a huge step forward in my Japanese skills.
So why are some people so negative when Heisig is mentioned here? Protecting their own waste of time learning kanji (CHINESE CHARACTERS!) in a very inefficient way? Heisig NEVER says that his book is a Japanese textbook or whatever. He states in the clearest possible way that this is a book that teaches you to memorize, recognize and write (the shape, lines and dots of) 2000+ kanji. Nothing more and nothing less. The fact that the ancients in Japan added layer on layer of equally imported Chinese "readings" as well as native words to these symbols is an entirely different story.
Now when I've been taking my kanji studies more seriously I've been able to really learn the first half of the book (1080 kanji, to be precise) in a month. I use the handy J-Quick program to test my progress as well as to offer hints on alternative meanings, keywords and so on. Works like magic.
BTW: I assume that the Heisig method would be EVEN MORE useful to students of Chinese since it is my impression that this language 1) requires more hanzi to be able to be considered literate and 2) the characters used tend to be more complex than their Japanese cousins (even when using simplified hanzi).
So please stop all biased and ignorant attacks on a method that could be very useful for many students of Japanese wanting to read and write FULL Japanese early on in their studies and not having to suffer from these endless hiragana-threads crawling across the pages. KANJI RULES!!
"The ingenious Heisig Method" - Ben_Nielson - 2009-01-04
Arguments like this are a complete waste of energy.
You're never going to convince people that have made up their minds, just like they're not going to convince you.Smart people will be able to search the net and see a few different opinions if they want. Heisig has made the first section of his book available for free. If people can't evaluate something and decide if it works for them or not, then too bad for them I suppose.
I'm not saying don't put out good opinions of Heisig out there.. but posts like that one are very obviously just looking to start an argument. I think your cause would have been much better served by a more reasonable, less attacking "My Review of Heisig's method".
Btw, I've no idea why there's some stigma against linking to that site or whatever. Though I read over that thread and those people (and your posts as well) all seem rather volatile. Maybe that's why, I guess.
"The ingenious Heisig Method" - Tobberoth - 2009-01-04
Since I was the one who asked you for the name, I'll should be the first one to post here.
Great to know you weren't lying about being here for a long time (like I said in that thread, I didn't think you were lying, I just thought it would be good to know for sure since some of your claims were pretty bold).
Also fun to see how you wrote about the Heisig method all that time ago and how you write about it now. I pretty much agree to everything in that post BTW.
EDIT: Guess I was too slow. 2nd will have to do.
"The ingenious Heisig Method" - nest0r - 2009-01-04
Not again...
"The ingenious Heisig Method" - KanjiHanzi - 2009-01-04
Ben_Nielson Wrote:Arguments like this are a complete waste of energy.Those already convinced weren't my "target group". There were - and still is - a lot of newbies asking questions about How to Learn Kanji. As soon as somebody suggested Heisig they were jumped all over by even the site moderators, excluding the away sweet Clay!!!! Nothing more. Nothing less.
Ben_Nielson Wrote:Btw, I've no idea why there's some stigma against linking to that site or whatever. Though I read over that thread and those people (and your posts as well) all seem rather volatile. Maybe that's why, I guess.I don't think there is a stigma. The moderator of THIS site didn't want it be mentioned.
"The ingenious Heisig Method" - ファブリス - 2009-01-04
KanjiHanzi Wrote:a site that wasn't supposed to be mentioned here when it was brought up a long time agoI remember vaguely that there supposedly is an so called "anti-Heisig" posse over at the japanesepage.com forums. Or maybe there was? Or maybe it is still there? Hmmm.. I wonder if you like tomato sandwich with cheese and chilli?
"The ingenious Heisig Method" - kazelee - 2009-01-04
...interesting...
I have to agree with Ben_Nielson. And I'd like to add if you're going to argue a topic where there is so little openess to possibilities the topic should be on alchemy. You should then include me once you've solidified your findings.
"The ingenious Heisig Method" - KanjiHanzi - 2009-01-04
nest0r Wrote:Not again...**IS** this a place where one can discuss the pros and cons of the Heisig method or is it something entirely different?? If the latter is the case, then I have missed it for many years and am happy to be corrected.
Just don't repeat the mistake in posting totally irrelevant comments like the one above until the matter is settled: Is it allowed to post opinions on Heisig HERE or should one stick to the less receptive audiences elsewhere?? I really don't care where I post or IF I post at all. Really.
(((((If all was about getting traffic to my blog, as suggested many times, then there are superior methods to having to invest the amount of time and energy it takes to "discuss" here. Technorati and the likes. People here are obviously already "Saved" and don't need "my" writing and experience. Great. Just don't be rude.)))))
"The ingenious Heisig Method" - KanjiHanzi - 2009-01-04
ファブリス Wrote:I remember vaguely that there supposedly is an so called "anti-Heisig" posse over at the japanesepage.com forums. Or maybe there was? Or maybe it is still there? Hmmm.. I wonder if you like tomato sandwich with cheese and chilli?Do you also remember that you ... ahem ... strongly advised against mentioning or linking to theJapanesePage.com at that time? Yes, I am very fond of the sandwich you mention, and in particular my son (a couple of years older than most of the posters here) :-)
And what about "posse" ..... THERE?? Can you enlighten me? The very recent experiences HERE seem to have made my memory rather hazy lately.
"The ingenious Heisig Method" - ファブリス - 2009-01-04
KanjiHanzi Wrote:I don't think there is a stigma. The moderator of THIS site didn't want it be mentioned.Please backup with facts.
As far as I remember I have never asked anybody not to post links to any specific forums or other communities.
In case that wasn't obvious, this is a Remembering the Kanji learners community at its core. While it's not clearly stated in the forum rules, it's pretty obvious that there is no use arguing the merits of the method here. Furthermore, there's been quite a few discussions about it already.
I used to visit http://www.thejapanesepage.com three years ago or so, and learned hiragana and katakana with the lessons there, for which I am thankful. Other than that I've only succintly visited the forums there and have no particular feelings about it.
This isn't a place for poiting fingers at, or criticizing other groups or communities. I'm sure there's a bunch of very cool people over there. If there are people who don't like Heisig's approach and post there, seriously .... who cares!?
"The ingenious Heisig Method" - kazelee - 2009-01-04
KanjiHanzi Wrote:Mr. KanjiHanzi, whether this comment was appropriate or not is a matter of opinion. I have a small bit of advice, though. We as humans have the ability to choose the level of response to a given stimulus. I suggest responding to negativity with humor.nest0r Wrote:Not again...**IS** this a place where one can discuss the pros and cons of the Heisig method or is it something entirely different?? If the latter is the case, then I have missed it for many years and am happy to be corrected.
Just don't repeat the mistake in posting totally irrelevant comments like the one above until the matter is settled: Is it allowed to post opinions on Heisig HERE or should one stick to the less receptive audiences elsewhere?? I really don't care where I post or IF I post at all. Really.
(((((If all was about getting traffic to my blog, as suggested many times, then there are superior methods to having to invest the amount of time and energy it takes to "discuss" here. Technorati and the likes. People here are obviously already "Saved" and don't need "my" writing and experience. Great. Just don't be rude.)))))
IE
someone: ...not again...
response: ...thankfully my wife hasn't said that yet...
or
response: ...you're starting to remind me of my ex-girlfriend...
or
response: ...what, you thought I was done....
I'm certain a person of your intelligence can see the advantages this has.
"The ingenious Heisig Method" - ファブリス - 2009-01-04
KanjiHanzi Wrote:Do you also remember that you ... ahem ... strongly advised against mentioning or linking to theJapanesePage.com at that time?No, I don't. Perhaps you could quote me?
"The ingenious Heisig Method" - ファブリス - 2009-01-04
KanjiHanzi Wrote:**IS** this a place where one can discuss the pros and cons of the Heisig method or is it something entirely different?? If the latter is the case, then I have missed it for many years and am happy to be corrected.Yes you can discuss the merits of the method, and of course this is a relevant place to do so. Only, this has been discussed many times already, and your post is more about trying to earn credits or somehow defend yourself from imaginary foes than it is about the method itself.
There have been quite a few topics on the RtK method, in the "RtK Volume 1" forum. The most recent one got stickied in order to answer frequent questions.
"The ingenious Heisig Method" - ファブリス - 2009-01-04
KanjiHanzi Wrote:I really don't care where I post or IF I post at all. Really.Ok then, I challenge you to stop posting in these forums until 2010, or make that 2012.
KanjiHanzi Wrote:Is it allowed to post opinions on Heisig HERE or should one stick to the less receptive audiences elsewhere?You're kind of preaching to the converted. It should be a lot more fun trying to convince the impious. With a little luck, if you start a new topic on the ****CENSORED**** website, you will get some resistance. If not, well... buggers.
"The ingenious Heisig Method" - nest0r - 2009-01-04
Oops, did I post that 'not again' here? My bad, I just noticed that my fingernails got too long and I had to cut them. They grow so quickly.
"The ingenious Heisig Method" - KanjiHanzi - 2009-01-04
ファブリス Wrote:It's all in the archives. Should have been around the same time I posted the stuff above. I will probably not look tonight, though.KanjiHanzi Wrote:I don't think there is a stigma. The moderator of THIS site didn't want it be mentioned.Please backup with facts.
As far as I remember I have never asked anybody not to post links to any specific forums or other communities.
ファブリス Wrote:In case that wasn't obvious, this is a Remembering the Kanji learners community at its core. While it's not clearly stated in the forum rules, it's pretty obvious that there is no use arguing the merits of the method here. Furthermore, there's been quite a few discussions about it already.There will always be new visitors requiring up-to-date view points. The one and only reason I went back here was that I suffered from delusional ideas (like: it would be possible to seriously discuss alternative SETTINGS for the Heisig METHOD here).
ファブリス Wrote:This isn't a place for poiting fingers at, or criticizing other groups or communities. I'm sure there's a bunch of very cool people over there. If there are people who don't like Heisig's approach and post there, seriously .... who cares!?Absolutely correct. But there is no harm in learning about HOW Heisig is discussed out there and WHY there is such an - IMHO - uneducated bias AGAINST Heisig all over the net. It's entirely up to each and every individual to decide if this is of interest or not. I have been very interested in this method for a long time. It can help a lot of people to get over ONE difficulty with Japanese and Chinese. I see no harm in trying to offer a fair and balances view to counter this BIAS, but now it seems like more urgent the other way around: to REALLY emphasize that ALL followers of Heisig aren't "strict".
"The ingenious Heisig Method" - ファブリス - 2009-01-04
nest0r Wrote:Oops, did I post that 'not again' here? My bad, I just noticed that my fingernails got too long and I had to cut them. They grow so quickly.Eeeeewwww!!
...
Ooops!
"The ingenious Heisig Method" - Tobberoth - 2009-01-04
KanjiHanzi Wrote:There will always be new visitors requiring up-to-date view points. The one and only reason I went back here was that I suffered from delusional ideas (like: it would be possible to seriously discuss alternative SETTINGS for the Heisig METHOD here).Do a quick search and you will find tons of threads discussing using Heisig without the book, in a different order, with other keywords etc etc etc. Pretty much every possible modification has been discussed, there are even whole threads about other techniques like the movie technique.
The problem wasn't what you wanted to discuss, it was how you started the discussion.
"The ingenious Heisig Method" - ファブリス - 2009-01-04
Well, I'm off brushing my teeth. See you tomorrow!
"The ingenious Heisig Method" - nest0r - 2009-01-04
ファブリス Wrote:Well, I'm off brushing my teeth. See you tomorrow!Let's turn this into the personal hygiene thread. Keep it clean, people.
The hygenious Heisig Method. Ha ha.
"The ingenious Heisig Method" - mentat_kgs - 2009-01-04
Just to point it out. There are many alternative settings of Heisig proposed in this forum. Some of them were accepted, some not.
I don't favor "pure" Heisig anymore. When I preach it to my friends, I preach it with the modifications I learned from this forum.
If you feel that you have something new to share, please post it. Be aware that until now you have not proposed any novelty at all.
"The ingenious Heisig Method" - KanjiHanzi - 2009-01-04
ファブリス Wrote:Ok then, I challenge you to stop posting in these forums until 2010, or make that 2012.Challenge? Or require? As I have said earlier: You're the boss around here - it's your place - and I am not less civilized than I will do exactly as you prefer. If you can't stand my posts, then I will of course stop posting. Simple as that. But I DO hope you can offer some reason for a comment like the one above :-) But also that is entirely up to you.
My personal opinion is that my first post ever here was an utter waste of time, even if it was an interesting lesson in how a "posse" can materialize from thin air. In the other posts I've done here there has been very interesting and useful exchange of ideas. Constructive. If that is not your opinion, the let it be that way. (In particular I found Rich to be of great help).
"The ingenious Heisig Method" - kazelee - 2009-01-04
nest0r Wrote:Are you somehow implying that I am dirty? I sure hope not.ファブリス Wrote:Well, I'm off brushing my teeth. See you tomorrow!Let's turn this into the personal hygiene thread. Keep it clean, people.
Quote:The hygenious Heisig Method. Ha ha.I sure hope that this is not some attempt at a play on words.
If you continue in this manner I may have to rub my gangrenous pinky toe on your lower lip.
"The ingenious Heisig Method" - alyks - 2009-01-04
You guys are all wrong. You have to study words, not kanji. You know, sure a lot of people use Heisig, but then it's rare to see people actually go on to get good at Japanese beyond that...
Kidding aside, if you're going to discuss alternatives to Heisig, you need to understand that the goal of Heisig is to be able to write 2042 kanji from memory with an English keyword. If you want an alternative, it has to improve on one of these:
Speed
Efficiency
Readings
There's no real way to increase the speed, and you can use the 'lite' version if you want. You also don't have to finish Heisig to start studying Japanese.
Efficiency has been increased a huge amount already by an SRS and mnemonics are really efficient already.
Readings have been tacked on if you use my Movie Method.
"The ingenious Heisig Method" - KanjiHanzi - 2009-01-04
mentat_kgs Wrote:Be aware that until now you have not proposed any novelty at all.Considering that I just started a few days ago with my project I *DO* think it's a bit premature to say it's nothing "new". I think it's fairly "new" to offer an amalgam of Heisig for Kanji and Hanzi at one place.
I also think it's fairly "new" around here to look at the etymology of the character IN DEPTH. Heisig himself brushes away this too easily, despite the fact that he himself has been entirely dependent upon traditional etymology when making up most of his keywords!! Actually he is pretty good at it, but misses now and then. Even the sun ......
But to repeat again and again: MY USE OF THE HEISIG METHOD is not new nor any novelty, a claim I have never made nor ever will make. It's good old Heisig in an expanded context integrating different approaches as well. Take it or leave it.