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+--- Thread: Introducing the Kanji Hanzi Hub (/thread-2344.html)
Introducing the Kanji Hanzi Hub - bodhisamaya - 2008-12-30
KanjiHanzi Wrote:I have been very explicit about what I consider to be a dogm in the pro-Heisig camp: to never use his methods outside of the limitations Heisig suggests. Kanji studies first, and everything else later. Follow the strict order from 1 to 2042 or you will not reach Kanji Nirvana. OF COURSE I don't suggest that all Heisig followers have this attitude, but it's still enough common to use the phraseThere have been threads about alternative keywords and if you look at the stories on the study pages they are littered with advise like, "look ahead to #2043 此this here". The very nature of the people who use this method is to be non-rigid or else they would have taken up more traditional ways of learning kanji. I venture to say that less than 1% start RTK with no knowledge at all of Japanese. You can't really just walk into most book stores and buy it. It is still not mainstream yet.
"A very common dogma among many, many Heisig followers".
Introducing the Kanji Hanzi Hub - KanjiHanzi - 2008-12-31
bodhisamaya Wrote:There have been threads about alternative keywords and if you look at the stories on the study pages they are littered with advise like, "look ahead to #2043 此this here". The very nature of the people who use this method is to be non-rigid or else they would have taken up more traditional ways of learning kanji. I venture to say that less than 1% start RTK with no knowledge at all of Japanese. You can't really just walk into most book stores and buy it. It is still not mainstream yet.Good morning, Amerika :-)
I spent so much time here yesterday that I had to compensate by getting up early today.
Yes, I would agree that there is this free-thinking mentality present in a lot of people getting tempted to start with Heisig. Absolutely.
And yes, it's a fact of life that Heisig's books still are rather esoteric and not spread enough as they deserve. What worries me is that there is such an overreaction here on a post from somebody 1) being studying Heisig for years with a certain amount of success and 2) agree with the basic components of the Heisig technique (dissect and associate), but took the liberty to suggest that there possibly are situations where certain students could benefit from skipping all the Hows and Whens often associated with Heisig. Nothing more or worse.
The reaction I got here is EXACTLY the same as when I tried to inform people on other places on the net about RtK as an excellent method: "Selling!!" "Get provision on the book?" to mention the more benevolent expressions. "Heisig is the DEVIL!" was one of the more strong reactions :-) I do NOT think it is a good sign to find this kind of similarity in reaction on both sides of the fence, and in particular NOT HERE.
Oooops: was close to forget my self-promotional link!!! :-)
ADMIN: Please stop repeating your website link at the end of your posts, you can add it to your profile. You have already introduced your website url earlier in this topic.
Introducing the Kanji Hanzi Hub - oregum - 2008-12-31
You make no sense, friend. Get more sleep.
Introducing the Kanji Hanzi Hub - KanjiHanzi - 2008-12-31
zodiac Wrote:When we use the verbs "sell" and "promote" here, we do not mean "to exchange for money" (which is what you seem to think we mean).No, I am perfectly able to understand the finer nuances of the usage. I just take the liberty to state the facts: I did not post here to promote anything whatsoever. I posted to hopefully get an interesting exchange of ideas and experiences. Not so. Yet.
zodiac Wrote:And regarding the confusion to your method, your first post on this thread was quite long. Your blog posts are also long. I believe that makes it quite confusing and unclear for many of us.Yes, information tend to be long and messy. Look at Heisig: he had to write THREE books to get his message across!!!! I really don't have any other method than what Heisig proposes, minus the rules that 1) go from 1 to 2042 in one swoop (or whatever), 2) avoid studying the language IN ITSELF while you study Kanji/Hanzi and 3) do not trust your visual memory AT ALL. That's it. Nothing more and nothing less. I more or less reject these three points as anything but random restrictions added with little basis in practice/experience.
I would like to add a few words to point 3) and Simplified Hanzi. The process of simplification has been MUCH MORE elegant in Japan, than in Mainland China. At first I was only disgusted with the simplified - slaughtered - versions of beautiful traditional characters. But after a while I have learned to like the simplified characters and partly so because they are SO MUCH faster to write by hand.
Despite this the simplification has turned the rather organic nature of traditional characters into abstract "signs", very much like the Japanese went ahead to creat Hiragana and Katakana. There are often very few clues about what relationship there is between a simplified character and its more ancient fathers/mothers. Just look at
义 compared with its traditional/Kanji counterpart 義
There are plenty of characters like this where I would find it a waste of time to add a story of any kind. I mean there is no way I BETTER could remember the totally unnecessary simplification of 車 into the ugly 车 if I added a story or whatever. The second stroke is not at all common in Kanji the way it is used here. And there are many, many more examples of this where you more or less *HAVE* to rely on your visual memory.
Have I managed to make myself more clear now?
Introducing the Kanji Hanzi Hub - KanjiHanzi - 2008-12-31
oregum Wrote:You make no sense, friend. Get more sleep.Nah, you get some sleep so you can restrain yourself from this kind of silly remarks adding nothing at all to the discussion.
In case you have trouble understanding a rather elementary post like the one I assume you commented, then be kind enough to ask or clarify before posting stuff like this. Examples and quotations! "Oh, this is too difficult for me to understand. Please help me!" and I will be to your service at once.
Introducing the Kanji Hanzi Hub - KanjiHanzi - 2008-12-31
kazelee Wrote:Good morning, kazelee. OK, I will be more than happy to do any re-reading just if I know WHAT!! I think I have read most posts rather carefully, but there might be something more I have missed apart from your questions. OK?Quote:And what statements from me (in the initial post)?? I have tried to make my point very clear, but I can't repeat this endlessly in each and every post, can I? Read what I have posted and then come back with proper examples of this and that.I think it's you who needs to do the re-reading.
Introducing the Kanji Hanzi Hub - Bryan_Saxton - 2008-12-31
People don't dislike you because of your ideas on Heisig. They dislike you because of condescending remarks like "do people not speak english anymore?"
Introducing the Kanji Hanzi Hub - shakkun - 2008-12-31
People aren't annoyed because you're criticizing the method. They're annoyed because because you are very abrasive. You are also failing to offer anything new:
KanjiHanzi Wrote:I really don't have any other method than what Heisig proposes, minus the rules that 1) go from 1 to 2042 in one swoop (or whatever)Lots of people already don't do this. This is not a new idea. Please stop thinking it is. Many people choose to take years to complete it. There is something called RevTK lite where people learn 1000ish common ones first, not in Heisig order.
KanjiHanzi Wrote:2) avoid studying the language IN ITSELF while you study Kanji/HanziAgain, many people here are already studying Japanese and Heisig at the same time. They don't need you to tell you they're allowed.
KanjiHanzi Wrote:do not trust your visual memory AT ALL. That's it. Nothing more and nothing less. I more or less reject these three points as anything but random restrictions added with little basis in practice/experience.You have already been given examples where visual memory is used. 呂 is one. As is 己 and 田 etc etc. Pictographs are not banned.
Discussing Heisig alternatives is not controversial here. Being a dick is. You are being a dick.
Introducing the Kanji Hanzi Hub - kfmfe04 - 2008-12-31
KanjiHanzi Wrote:My own blog is entirely centered around using the Heisig method in a slightly different - and in my opinion more efficient - way. If you consider my post as Promoting My Own Blog, you are entitled to that opinion. I can't possibly add the kind of stuff I post at my blog here (something you can judge for yourself if you care). I suppose some members here might be interested and the only way to satisfy their interest is to direct them to the blog. Very simple.No intention to put down your method, but you have to realize that there are more than a handful of students on this site who have finished Heisig in 2-3 months, and your method is more efficient?
To me, 2-3 months is already incredibly fast. Do you have examples of higher levels of efficiency for Kanji that you can cite?
------------------------
Most importantly, can you succinctly state, in 1 or 2 short sentences:
What are you introducing new which hasn't been introduced before?
------------------------
Many, many students here have already finished Heisig and are going into other parts of Japanese - kanji readings, sentences, grammar, listening, JLPT, novels, manga, etc...
Introducing the Kanji Hanzi Hub - zodiac - 2008-12-31
Well, pardon me if I interpreted your words wrongly, but I did see you use the word "business" when talking about selling.
Actually, Heisig spent the Introduction getting his message across, which is to convince us that his method works. The rest of RTK1 is primitives, keywords and stories.
Those three points you summarized are perfectly valid IMO. It's ok to disagree with Heisig. However, I think these points have been discussed elsewhere on the forum.
There are threads where people ask "why shouldn't I read Japanese while doing Heisig?". There are threads discussing to what extent to use visual memory. Threads about doing RTK out of order (for e.g. based on frequency). Threads discussing simplified Hanzi.
Why would we want to discuss all these points in one single thread (this one)? If you wish to share and receive feedback about those points, it makes more sense to discuss it in separate threads, yeah?
Introducing the Kanji Hanzi Hub - KanjiHanzi - 2008-12-31
shakkun Wrote:Discussing Heisig alternatives is not controversial here. Being a dick is. You are being a dick.OOOPS. We are very nice and polite today, aren't we?!?!
shakkun Wrote:People aren't annoyed because you're criticizing the method. They're annoyed because because you are very abrasive.You are creating your own alternative universe. Go back to the first page of this thread and tell me where I was "abrasive" before having rather silly posts thrown at me.
http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?tid=2344&page=1
shakkun Wrote:You are also failing to offer anything new:Have I suggested that my ideas are novel? No. Do you need something really inventive and new to be allowed to post in this forum? No.
KanjiHanzi Wrote:I really don't have any other method than what Heisig proposes, minus the rules that 1) go from 1 to 2042 in one swoop (or whatever)Lots of people already don't do this. This is not a new idea. Please stop thinking it is. Many people choose to take years to complete it. There is something called RevTK lite where people learn 1000ish common ones first, not in Heisig order.
Not even the Heisig method is particularly new. He has "merely" combined a not so inventive method of breaking up the characters into components with more imaginative techniques for learning new stuff, also in use long before Heisig wrote his book(s).
shakkun Wrote:Silly comment, as usual. I have never discussed what people already studying Heisig should do or not do. I thought that was pretty obvious from the start: I talked about alternatives for people STARTING with the method in general, and Remembering the Hanzi in particular, could - not SHOULD! - consider and evaluate. I have seen quite a few members here all the way through RtK 1 pondering to start all over again with RtH. I consider that a total waste of time, an opinion I am both entitled to have and to express here.KanjiHanzi Wrote:2) avoid studying the language IN ITSELF while you study Kanji/HanziAgain, many people here are already studying Japanese and Heisig at the same time. They don't need you to tell you they're allowed.
Quote:Yes, but they are very few and far apart in RtK I. In RtH Simplified version they will be really frequent in my own humble opinion (from looking at the sample pdf file).KanjiHanzi Wrote:do not trust your visual memory AT ALL. That's it. Nothing more and nothing less. I more or less reject these three points as anything but random restrictions added with little basis in practice/experience.You have already been given examples where visual memory is used. 呂 is one. As is 己 and 田 etc etc. Pictographs are not banned.
Remembering the Hanzi Wrote:叶 The Chinese are famous for taking a leaf and turning it into medicine. In this character, there are no less than ten different types of leaves that go into the concoction that the herbal doctor is stuffing into your mouth. The problem is, she didn’t take the trouble to grind them up with her mortar and pestle, but is shoveling them into your mouth just as they came off the tree. Look at the character and you can see how the ten leaves are way too much for the one small mouth to handle.Sorry, but I find this as nothing but an utter waste of paper, energy and time. If you can't learn really basic Hanzi - 汁， 叶， 只 - then you will of course have to stick to the stories, but I seriously doubt that there are so many student are THAT devoid of visual memory.
And while I have the pdf-file open: I also sort of reject the notion of having such a rare Hanzi as 皂 (frequency 2500+) as the #36 character to be learned. This is also a waste of time. memory and other efforts, just to keep the Heisig order neat and tidy.
And **DO** consider a more polite way of "discussing". You are not only making a fool out of yourself, but also taints the forum, a place you all seem so eager to defend from "invaders" like me. It really not your duty to police the borders here. It's ENTIRELY up to the owner of the site. And his word is the law in this not at all democratic setup.
(I am very well aware of the often painful decisions a forum owner or moderator have to face since I have been running both several mailing lists and places like this. Trust me little boy: If I were the boss here you would be OUT with no pardon AT ONCE just because of the ugly language you use!! No pardon whatsoever!)
Introducing the Kanji Hanzi Hub - KanjiHanzi - 2008-12-31
zodiac Wrote:Why would we want to discuss all these points in one single thread (this one)? If you wish to share and receive feedback about those points, it makes more sense to discuss it in separate threads, yeah?I am sure you are correct about all this. It's entirely up to you to discuss or not discuss. Most of of you replying to my initial post have made a different choice: adding a lot of foul language and useless "comments". If you don't like a post, merely don't reply!! Or at least use the bandwidth for constructive critique!!
The interesting point, from my own perspective, is to have all these different "old threads" focusing on something rather new: Remembering the Hanzi. Did you miss that aspect of my post(s)?
Introducing the Kanji Hanzi Hub - KanjiHanzi - 2008-12-31
kfmfe04 Wrote:To repeat myself again: The main focus of my post was not to offer an alternative to Remember the Kanji as used here. The very TOP INTENTION was to add an incentive to re-evalute some of the pillars of Heisig's method if somebody plans to use his Remebering the Hanzi on top of a finished RtK 1 or higher, a notion I have seen here. THAT would be a total waste of time, in my opinion.KanjiHanzi Wrote:My own blog is entirely centered around using the Heisig method in a slightly different - and in my opinion more efficient - way.No intention to put down your method, but you have to realize that there are more than a handful of students on this site who have finished Heisig in 2-3 months, and your method is more efficient?
To me, 2-3 months is already incredibly fast. Do you have examples of higher levels of efficiency for Kanji that you can cite?
After studying Mandarin for roughly six months I have made enough rapid progress to also speculate in a situation where totally NEW STUDENTS OF MANDARIN/HANZI could benefit from the way I have proceeded in my own studies. In particular I am getting more and more convinced that ONE reading/pronunciation should be added from scratch to every new Hanzi learned. Contrary to popular belief I find that this is nothing like a distraction, but rather the contrary. For me. Could it be possible that the same applies to other students of Mandarin?? That's the #1 question I am asking on my blog as well as here. Question #2 is if this also doesn't apply to Kanji/Japanese? Me thinks so.
kfmfe04 Wrote:------------------------Sorry, but I can't satisfy your longing for brevity, but hopefully the rather short paragraphs above was OK? Take your time. We are in no hurry while the old year leaves room for a new and fresh period, are we? :-)
Most importantly, can you succinctly state, in 1 or 2 short sentences:
What are you introducing new which hasn't been introduced before?
------------------------
Introducing the Kanji Hanzi Hub - Bryan_Saxton - 2008-12-31
KanjiHanzi Wrote:You are creating your own alternative universe. Go back to the first page of this thread and tell me where I was "abrasive" before having rather silly posts thrown at me.Where on the first page? How about this little gem:
KanjiHanzi Wrote:Do not people read simple English anymore??There are several more examples before you wrote that, but this is a condescending response to someone who, at that point, was only asking a few questions.
KanjiHanzi Wrote:OOOPS. We are very nice and polite today, aren't we?!?!No, we are not. You're providing an excellent example for us.
Introducing the Kanji Hanzi Hub - alyks - 2008-12-31
KanjiHanzi Wrote:After studying Mandarin for roughly six months I have made enough rapid progress to also speculate in a situation where totally NEW STUDENTS OF MANDARIN/HANZI could benefit from the way I have proceeded in my own studies. In particular I am getting more and more convinced that ONE reading/pronunciation should be added from scratch to every new Hanzi learned. Contrary to popular belief I find that this is nothing like a distraction, but rather the contrary. For me. Could it be possible that the same applies to other students of Mandarin?? That's the #1 question I am asking on my blog as well as here. Question #2 is if this also doesn't apply to Kanji/Japanese? Me thinks so.So, you're saying that people should learn at least one reading to the kanji? How is this different from my Movie Method?
Introducing the Kanji Hanzi Hub - nest0r - 2008-12-31
LOL I love this guy.
Introducing the Kanji Hanzi Hub - shakkun - 2008-12-31
I totally can't tell if he's for real anymore!
Introducing the Kanji Hanzi Hub - bandwidthjunkie - 2008-12-31
>>KanjiHanzi
So to recap; your method is:
1) Do the kanji in any order you want.
2) Learn loads of other things at the same time.
3) Magically remember them by just staring at them for long enough.
It sounds great, but how does it work? (Oh and it only takes 8 years you say?)
Introducing the Kanji Hanzi Hub - KanjiHanzi - 2008-12-31
Bryan_Saxton Wrote:KanjiHanzi Wrote:You are creating your own alternative universe. Go back to the first page of this thread and tell me where I was "abrasive" before having rather silly posts thrown at me.Where on the first page? How about this little gem:
KanjiHanzi Wrote:Do not people read simple English anymore??Yes, I wrote that and it was a perfectly valid response to
wccrawford Wrote:Please don't edit away every kind of context to prove your point!!KanjiHanzi Wrote:Just because Heisig doesn't work for you (or me, actually) doesn't mean it doesn't work.Where have I written "It doesn't work???" Do not people read simple English anymore?? I have written here that I have gone through the entire set of 2046 kanjis in RtK I and have managed to learn them, and even retain a lot without any tedious repetitions. Could that be interpreted as "It doesn't work???"
Quote:There are several more examples before you wrote that, but this is a condescending response to someone who, at that point, was only asking a few questions.Don't try to put the blame on me! You will not find any foul and rude language from me, neither have I been condescending, as far as I am able to tell. If you boys - yes, I seriously doubt that there are any females among those posting here and neither am I convinced that the majority getting most upset IN THIS THREAD have reached a mature age (above 30??) - are so easily offended by my initial post, then this an issue you perhaps should deal with in your own private corner of the world, huh?
KanjiHanzi Wrote:OOOPS. We are very nice and polite today, aren't we?!?!No, we are not. You're providing an excellent example for us.
Offer some valid points or refrain from all the whining!!! Yes, I am a DICK. An leprechaun on meth and whatever you prefer. I really don't care. Honestly! But stop being pitiful cry-babies then! The world is full of ass-holes and you better get used to it. Am I approaching your level of communication now or should I turn up the knob a bit more?
I really have a lot of time and an infinite patience now and then, so "we" can keep on making this the ugliest thread in the history of this forum. Your choice, really. I have never been bullied away by the anti-Heisig mob and have no intention to be bullied away by you either, despite the sad fact that you are turning into a worse and uglier mob that those rude people. Rather amusing, isn't it? The worst anti-Heisig offenders were grownups capable of being rude and offensive WITHOUT DIRTY LANGUAGE. You newbies have a lot to learn before your rudeness is more than spitting in your own face!
(BTW: I was merely joking. I will NOT join you in the Ugly Language Division. No way.)
Introducing the Kanji Hanzi Hub - KanjiHanzi - 2008-12-31
alyks Wrote:So, you're saying that people should learn at least one reading to the kanji? How is this different from my Movie Method?I honestly don't know your movie method in anything close to depth, but I will look closer as soon as possible. (I have merely read a few samples on your site and found it very interesting.) So I have no answer and no idea now apart, from the fact that you had some Tarrantino movie to GROUP readings, or is my memory wrong?
I really did not know that you also suggested adding readings to individual Kanjis from scratch and the very beginning, so to say. Perhaps you can enlighten me/us? Of course in the mandatory format here and now: Two sentences with no extras. :-)
Introducing the Kanji Hanzi Hub - kazelee - 2008-12-31
KanjiHanzi Wrote:Don't try to put the blame on me! You will not find any foul and rude language from me, neither have I been condescending, as far as I am able to tell.Then you are very dense.
KanjiHanzi Wrote:What's the point of asking people to provide examples if all you're going to do is pretend that you never asked for the information?Bryan_Saxton Wrote:KanjiHanzi Wrote:You are creating your own alternative universe. Go back to the first page of this thread and tell me where I was "abrasive" before having rather silly posts thrown at me.Where on the first page? How about this little gem:KanjiHanzi Wrote:Do not people read simple English anymore??Yes, I wrote that and it was a perfectly valid response to
wccrawford Wrote:Please don't edit away every kind of context to prove your point!!KanjiHanzi Wrote:Just because Heisig doesn't work for you (or me, actually) doesn't mean it doesn't work.Where have I written "It doesn't work???" Do not people read simple English anymore?? I have written here that I have gone through the entire set of 2046 kanjis in RtK I and have managed to learn them, and even retain a lot without any tedious repetitions. Could that be interpreted as "It doesn't work???"
Quote:There are several more examples before you wrote that, but this is a condescending response to someone who, at that point, was only asking a few questions.Don't try to put the blame on me! You will not find any foul and rude language from me, neither have I been condescending, as far as I am able to tell. If you boys - yes, I seriously doubt that there are any females among those posting here and neither am I convinced that the majority getting most upset IN THIS THREAD have reached a mature age (above 30??) - are so easily offended by my initial post, then this an issue you perhaps should deal with in your own private corner of the world, huh?
KanjiHanzi Wrote:OOOPS. We are very nice and polite today, aren't we?!?!No, we are not. You're providing an excellent example for us.
Offer some valid points or refrain from all the whining!!! Yes, I am a DICK. An leprechaun on meth and whatever you prefer. I really don't care. Honestly! But stop being pitiful cry-babies then! The world is full of ass-holes and you better get used to it. Am I approaching your level of communication now or should I turn up the knob a bit more?
I really have a lot of time and an infinite patience now and then, so "we" can keep on making this the ugliest thread in the history of this forum. Your choice, really. I have never been bullied away by the anti-Heisig mob and have no intention to be bullied away by you either, despite the sad fact that you are turning into a worse and uglier mob that those rude people. Rather amusing, isn't it? The worst anti-Heisig offenders were grownups capable of being rude and offensive WITHOUT DIRTY LANGUAGE. You newbies have a lot to learn before your rudeness is more than spitting in your own face!
(BTW: I was merely joking. I will NOT join you in the Ugly Language Division. No way.)
You are not a dick. If you were a dick, people would dislike you, but they would still respect you.
You are not an leprechaun. If you were, people wouldn't talk about you until after you exited. You are still here.
You are not a meth addict. You seem to have no problem hitting the keys.
You are playing a role here: The Victim. It's not a very good role, but you play it well.
My suggestion to everyone:
Ignore this person. Pretty soon he'll fade away.
Introducing the Kanji Hanzi Hub - KanjiHanzi - 2008-12-31
shakkun Wrote:I totally can't tell if he's for real anymore!Yes, it's obviously so that you have hard time with this Reality aspect, inventing stuff when there is nothing Real to be found. But by all means keep it up. Perhaps you invented me too?
Introducing the Kanji Hanzi Hub - kazelee - 2008-12-31
bandwidthjunkie Wrote:>>KanjiHanziLOL. I didn't catch that part.
So to recap; your method is:
1) Do the kanji in any order you want.
2) Learn loads of other things at the same time.
3) Magically remember them by just staring at them for long enough.
It sounds great, but how does it work? (Oh and it only takes 8 years you say?)
Introducing the Kanji Hanzi Hub - alyks - 2008-12-31
KanjiHanzi Wrote:http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?tid=1768alyks Wrote:So, you're saying that people should learn at least one reading to the kanji? How is this different from my Movie Method?I honestly don't know your movie method in anything close to depth, but I will look closer as soon as possible. (I have merely read a few samples on your site and found it very interesting.) So I have no answer and no idea now apart, from the fact that you had some Tarrantino movie to GROUP readings, or is my memory wrong?
I really did not know that you also suggested adding readings to individual Kanjis from scratch and the very beginning, so to say. Perhaps you can enlighten me/us? Of course in the mandatory format here and now: Two sentences with no extras. :-)
You take a movie, and every kanji mnemonic image you put in that movie has the same onyomi. Instead of using stories, you use mnemonic images. For example, under my system 叶 would simply be the image of sticking a needle in a mouth. I'm quite sure this could be adapted to Chinese somehow.
Introducing the Kanji Hanzi Hub - zodiac - 2008-12-31
Even if wccrawford misunderstood your words, even if he did not read your post fully, saying "Do not people read simple English anymore??" is not polite.
Calling KanjiHanzi a "dick" isn't either.
I get this feeling that many people think "I have a right to use foul language and all because other people used it to me." It's not true.
On topic...I think that if I'm using RTK with the goal of learning Chinese, I would learn a pinyin.