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+--- Thread: "Number 1" method for understanding spoken Japanese? (/thread-2333.html)
"Number 1" method for understanding spoken Japanese? - zodiac - 2008-12-30
I turned away from TTSs after hearing one read some Chinese.
Horrible. I would freak out if a human spoke like that.
I see the benefits of a multi-sensory SRS environment, but at the current level of quality, I think the risks outweigh the benefits.
It would be interesting to hear native Japanese speakers' comments on the TTS, though.
"Number 1" method for understanding spoken Japanese? - PrettyKitty - 2008-12-30
How do you know that a TTS is saying the correct reading of a character? Do you write everything in kana?
"Number 1" method for understanding spoken Japanese? - zodiac - 2008-12-30
If you write everything in kana, the TTS wouldn't know which words to stress, change pitch etc, would it? (I'm just asking, I'm not sure how to use a TTS either)
"Number 1" method for understanding spoken Japanese? - thermal - 2008-12-30
Just to clarify, I don't read and listen at the same time. My question is the audio and answer the sentence writen out in kanji or vice versa.
But yeah, maybe it doesn't offer so much for you. You can probably test by shadowing some Japanese and see how your brain interprets it. For me it is the difference between, listing to it and thinking oh it's that sentence again and actually listening to it and running the grammar through my mind and interpreting it anew. I can really feel my brain analysing it as I follow behind the voice. To be honest I can't really comment on reading since I only did it this way for a little while in the beginning, but do you tend to just recognise the sentence rather than read it anew?
It also isn't always easy to hear that it isn't a native speaker. I have sentences said by both real native speakers and by TTS and occasionally I think the TTS sentence is actually a real woman since the pron sounds so perfect.
Why don't you get some sentences that you have real Japanese audio for and read them out, maybe record them. Then listen to the real sentences said by a native speaker. If there are no significant differences then maybe you don't need it. I am not saying there will be since I don't know your level, but for me I think there will be some significant differences in tone and pacing and I think that the TTS software will be much closer, so I do think there is value there.
Anyway, I'm not saying everyone must use it or anything. It isn't a huge difference. I just that there is more value there than the detriment of listening to non perfect speech. Just get lots more audio input from other native sources.
Why don't you try it out for a week? You can get a trial of the software and get it going pretty easily.
"Number 1" method for understanding spoken Japanese? - thermal - 2008-12-30
You are correct zodiac. It uses the kanji to figure out how to do the intonation for the sentence. It uses grammar rules to figure out what reading to use for the kanji, but it isn't perfect and will screw up about 2% of the time. About half the time you can work around it by changing the problem word to hiragana and it won't affect the pron. The rest of the time I just concecde and put in hiragana into my SRS for that fact.
Re the chinese voice you heard, how good it sounds is I think completely dependent on the voice. I have heard horrible Japanese voices too but Misaki sounds really good. I have played it to native speakers and they generally are really impressed, but some note that it isn't perfect.
Anyway, katsumoto recommends some Chinese voices in this post: http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blog/chinese-project-notes-10-big-developments-anki-text-to-speech-cantonese-victory-calendar
"Number 1" method for understanding spoken Japanese? - zodiac - 2008-12-30
For someone who was insisting "no uncorrected output! no awkward textbook sentences! you only want to read real, natural Japanese!", I was surprised he would allow TTS. A vote of confidence?
Actually, I like the idea of audio in my SRS, if TTSs were perfect I would use them.
But on the other hand I do have 6000 iKnow audio sentences...and several hours worth of free audiobooks...and DVDs (with exact subs on the internet)...and of course japanese songs, dorama and anime of ambiguous legality.
I guess that yes, TTS is impressive. It's quite amazing how closely computers can simulate the human voice now. But they're still computers, and I believe natives can tell (but I don't know whether this is true).
Can you post a link to some Chinese (or perhaps english) TTS audio?
"Number 1" method for understanding spoken Japanese? - TGWeaver - 2008-12-30
move to japan.
study japanese.
work in a bar.
make friends.
repeat as necessary.
"Number 1" method for understanding spoken Japanese? - Erubey - 2008-12-30
First time using Anki, and I downloaded the Iknow pack. The audio works but it only pops up every once in a while. Is this a bug that I simply have to update? Whats up
"Number 1" method for understanding spoken Japanese? - kazelee - 2008-12-30
TGWeaver Wrote:move to japan.Sounds like a plan
study japanese.
work in a bar.
make friends.
repeat as necessary.
"Number 1" method for understanding spoken Japanese? - oregum - 2008-12-30
I have search high and low, to bring you THE LEARNING MATRIX method.
There are 3 steps:
1) locate a member of the Zion resistance
2) take the blue pill
3) use that machine thingy and upload the spoken Japanese language software
or:
Study your butt off, because there is no number 1 method. Do everything under the sky. Some things will work for you, some won't. Jpod works for me.
"Number 1" method for understanding spoken Japanese? - bodhisamaya - 2008-12-30
Pillow talk
"Number 1" method for understanding spoken Japanese? - oregum - 2008-12-30
bodhisamaya Wrote:Pillow talkGotta be careful with this one. While quite effective, you will pick up some girly phrases. (or guy phrases)
I remember talking to one of my gaijin friends in Tokyo one day. His Japanese was much better than mine, I said something, to which he replied, that was so gay. So I asked him why. He said, something about it being girly. This was back in the day, and at that time my Japanese was virtually nonexistent, but I still remember the day.
"Number 1" method for understanding spoken Japanese? - Shirow66 - 2008-12-30
"Back in the day", that was a Wednesday. Did you know that?
"Number 1" method for understanding spoken Japanese? - zodiac - 2008-12-30
Erubey Wrote:First time using Anki, and I downloaded the Iknow pack. The audio works but it only pops up every once in a while. Is this a bug that I simply have to update? Whats upPressing F5 should replay audio.
"Number 1" method for understanding spoken Japanese? - timcampbell - 2008-12-31
bodhisamaya Wrote:Pillow talkAnother good plan
"Number 1" method for understanding spoken Japanese? - KanjiHanzi - 2008-12-31
Virtua_Leaf Wrote:Yeah so I think it's time I changed the fact that I have to concede that I pretty much won't be able to understand what's being said every time I hear spoken Japanese.Since I have had the very same problem - and still do - I can offer my own method to handle rapidly spoken Japanese (or whatever language): I dump EVERY sound onto my computer, open them up in trusty SoundForge (or whatever sound editor you prefer), select small snippets and play and replay until I can get along.
Works like snake oil! I could even make sense of the very difficult spoken Japanese - according to my standards - on the Azora CD
. ("Azora" is actually quite a bit too difficult for me, but I buy a lot of books just to be challenged and entertained).I don't know any Japanese speakers, but I do have an iPod. Please tell me a good method to work with, or at least what you are/were doing yourself.
Since some people here seem to love comparisons between EASY Mandarin and EXTREMELY DIFFICULT Japanese I can't refuse them another snippet:
I am more comfortable listening to Mandarin - and understanding what is said! - after six months compared with more than the same number of years for Japanese!!! And, yes, admittedly: I DO study Mandarin in a more structured step-by-step approach than I ever did with Japanese, but did I listen and listen?? Yes, I did.
All the way from the very first "A Complete Course in Japanese" to the most recent "Read Real Japanese Fiction" and "Read Real Japanese Essays" with Pimsleur and whatever put in between. I STILL can watch an entire Kurosawa movie without even finding a single word I can identify!!! OK, maybe a few.
Happy listening!
Kanji Hanzi
"Number 1" method for understanding spoken Japanese? - bodhisamaya - 2008-12-31
KanjiHanzi Wrote:Happy listening!This is getting creepy. Why are you continually promoting your site?
Kanji Hanzi
http://kanjihanzi.blogspot.com/
"Number 1" method for understanding spoken Japanese? - alyks - 2008-12-31
bodhisamaya Wrote:That is kinda weird, just stick it on your website in your profile.KanjiHanzi Wrote:Happy listening!This is getting creepy. Why are you continually promoting your site?
Kanji Hanzi
http://kanjihanzi.blogspot.com/
"Number 1" method for understanding spoken Japanese? - oregum - 2008-12-31
Not to mention constantly using 'snake oil' incorrectly.
Snake oil means its fake, ergo, doesn't work.
"Number 1" method for understanding spoken Japanese? - KanjiHanzi - 2008-12-31
bodhisamaya Wrote:Jesus Christ!!! Can't you buggers get off my back and mind your own business?!?!?!KanjiHanzi Wrote:Happy listening!
This is getting creepy. Why are you continually promoting your site?
I have ALWAYS had a signature added to all my emails, forum posts, mailing lists entries and whatever, including the most current web site I've been working with/on. Always means "For 14-15 bloody years!!! I added a signature to my profile but it hasn't showed up. I missed the page where you add an URL to your web site. It's fixed now. I am not ***** promoting anything! I merely do as I normally do and as millions of people do around the web: add a manual signature to my posts/emails when there is no automatic one. And that's none of your ***** business!!!
To avoid this madness I will even skip a manual sig if the standard one doesn't appear. Don't you get it?? I don't care. Right now I merely want you to BACK OFF and give me some peace here (outside the kindergarten you have created elsewhere), something I am equally entitled to as any other member. I WAS MERELY REPLYING TO A POST HERE AND YOU CAN'T KEEP YOUR FINGERS OFF THE KEYBOARD: PROMOTE, PROMOTE. It's a decease in your brain, if you can't see anything but selling and promoting in everything your fellow human beings do.
Do finally get it? I do EXACTLY as I have done for ages in accordance to well established netiquette up to the very moment Fabrice says it's inappropriate HERE. It's none of your bloody business until then.
"Number 1" method for understanding spoken Japanese? - Thora - 2008-12-31
huh?
ah..hanzikanji, I obviously missed parts of this thread, but perhaps you could tone it down a bit?
edit: kanjihanzi I meant
"Number 1" method for understanding spoken Japanese? - KristinHolly - 2008-12-31
Virtua_Leaf, you've gotten all kinds of good advice already, but I wanted to suggest actually finding a language partner. There are a few online services for that, but if you have a university, Japanese store or even just an Asian supermarket anywhere nearby, you might be able to ask around or put up a sign. There may be a Japanese person around who would be glad to exchange an hour of English practice for an hour of Japanese practice now and then. You might also check with the Japan Society of the UK: http://www.japansociety.org.uk/
Once you are a little further along with the listening, you might see if there's a Japanese television channel available in your area. In the US and Canada, TVJapan is available as a premium cable or satellite channel, but of course, I don't know about the UK. It's a bit expensive but nice to be able to keep up with the same news and shows that are on in Japan.
"Number 1" method for understanding spoken Japanese? - KanjiHanzi - 2008-12-31
Thora Wrote:huh?Sorry, Thora, but I have no intention in toning down unless these brats get off my back.
ah..hanzikanji, I obviously missed parts of this thread, but perhaps you could tone it down a bit?
edit: kanjihanzi I meant
You didn't miss anything in this thread, but AN ENTIRE THREAD:
http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?tid=2344&page=1
I went here because I thought I had some ideas and experiences to offer AND to get a break from these testosterone/adrenalin drunk kids over there. And the first that happens is that I meet more of the same shit here! From the same silly boys. Nope. Enough is enough. Even on New Years Eve!
Happy New year in Canada
"Number 1" method for understanding spoken Japanese? - zodiac - 2008-12-31
"This is getting creepy. Why are you continually promoting your site?"
I don't think that warrants the kind of response you gave. Why not just say "I added a manual signature to my posts/emails when there is no automatic one." and leave it at that?
"Number 1" method for understanding spoken Japanese? - ファブリス - 2008-12-31
KanjiHanzi Wrote:I will even skip a manual sig if the standard one doesn't appear.Thank you. Signatures are disabled for everyone here. There is nothing wrong per se in doing a little self promotion, but when it appears in signatures, I feel this distracts from the main discussion, and encourages people sometime to post without being truly engaged in the discussion.
You're welcome to introduce a new website, even a commercial one. And gather some feedback in the same topic (don't spam). But repeated self-promotion is frowned upon.