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'R' or 'L'? - brendanmacdonald - 2008-12-24
When you pronounce Japanese words with an 'R' in them, do you guys say 'R' or do you say 'L'?
I have been saying 'R' for a while now but have been advised that saying 'L' makes it sound much more natural. And I don't mean a half-'R', half-'L', but a pure 'L'.
Anyone got any advice on this?
'R' or 'L'? - Erubey - 2008-12-24
I never got this since I just use spanish R's. I'd probably do an L though if I couldn't because english R's next to each other sound like Scooby Doo.
'R' or 'L'? - b0ng0 - 2008-12-24
I usually use an R sound but try not to make it too strong. When I was in Japan, most people I heard and spoke to said words with an "R" sound, not an "L". I have asked some of my Japanese friends and they say it's not really and R or L sound, but if you try to say an "R" but let your toungue touch the back of your front teeth when saying it, that it almost how it's done... but I feel like a plonker trying to do that so I just stick with a mild R.
'R' or 'L'? - iSoron - 2008-12-24
Isn't it too cutesy to use only pure L's?
'R' or 'L'? - samesong - 2008-12-24
My own take on how to produce the Japanese "R":
(stolen from my own previous post)
Quote:- ら り る れ る. It's best NOT to think about this as "ra ri ru re ro". (as pronounced in English). Think of them as closer to the sound of D in English.
(warning: if there is a variance in an American English accent and others, I apologize. I'm just a yank! And I don't know anything about linguistics; I just have a pretty accent wink )
Say the word "dam". Feel where your tongue is inside your mouth when making the "D". It should feel like a good part of your tongue flatly flick against the roof of your mouth. Now say the word "ram". You should feel your tongue curling to a point inside your mouth. Now try pronouncing ら by combining these two sounds. Your tongue should curl like it's about to pronounce an R, but should extend all the way up to flick agains the roof of your mouth like you would pronounce a D.
'R' or 'L'? - oregum - 2008-12-24
Here is an example of when its a pure R sound. Listen for がんばる ganbaro
Other times, the R/L sound in Japanese is a combination of both. In the following example it is extreme. I didn't here the 'L' sound stressed this much in Tokyo
How can this be? Its pretty easy, say any word that that has lots of Rs like 'lollipop' and keep your tongue on/by/near your front teeth and you got the Japanese R.
My advice is mimic, don't invent. Like Khatzu of AJATT says, input trumps output. Pay attention to the way natives say certain words and imitate. The stress on R vs L is differs slightly word to word.
'R' or 'L'? - Captain_Thunder - 2008-12-24
Erubey Wrote:I never got this since I just use spanish R's.Seconded; I don't understand why this isn't the standard advice. After significant exposure to both, I haven't been able to discern any difference between the two, and the Spanish R is something most Americans should be familiar with.
'R' or 'L'? - snispilbor - 2008-12-24
Here's how I learned to pronounce a fan-freakin-tastically good Japanese R. (only works if you have a US accent)
Start by saying "water" repeatedly. Note that the "t" is actually a strange sound, sort of like a d... that strange sound is actually the Japanese R!
So, let's slowly morph "water" into a Japanese word, say, 見る.
water
water
water
water
watu
watu
watu
watu
witu
witu
witu
witu
mitu
(where the "t"'s all have the same sound as the "t" in "water") And there you go!
Note, once you learn this sound, it will NEVER sound anything like L or R again. Once you know all three of the sounds, they're totally different. If a Japanese person says otherwise, it's because they don't know the English ones
'R' or 'L'? - kfmfe04 - 2008-12-24
brendanmacdonald Wrote:When you pronounce Japanese words with an 'R' in them, do you guys say 'R' or do you say 'L'?It actually depends on the specific KANA.
I have been saying 'R' for a while now but have been advised that saying 'L' makes it sound much more natural. And I don't mean a half-'R', half-'L', but a pure 'L'.
Anyone got any advice on this?
Newbie Note: あかさたなはまやらわん the two columns that require special attention for pronunciation are らりるれろ and たちつてと (Ta Chi Chu Te To) - all the rest are standard/easy.
------------------------------------
Suggestion: try to get away from thinking in Romaji ASAP, or it will mess you up.
Having said that, the closest I can get with English pronunciations are:
ら LA (tongue hits front of mouth)
り DI-light (tongue hits top of mouth)
る DU-light (tongue hits top of mouth)
れ DE/RE - no tongue-roll (tongue hits back of mouth), で is DE-harder
ろ DO/RO - no tongue-roll (tongue hits back of mouth), ど is DO-harder
DE/RE means half-way between DE and RE. Having said that, these are just very rough guidelines when you are just starting out. I have also heard stronger/lighter emphasis depending on regions and on context (comedians may over-stress certain features).
I highly suggest that you get away from thinking about pronunciations in English terms as soon as possible, lest you end up sounding as bad as some Japanese having horrible problems pronouncing words like "list" or "wrist".
Just listen to as many examples you can repeatedly, and play close attention to where the tongue seems to end up.
'R' or 'L'? - welldone101 - 2008-12-24
I've yet to be able to discern a difference between the Japanese R and the Spanish R. Just use a flipped R like Spanish and you're fine.
Personally, I think the harder part of らりるれろ is saying it in words, for example べんり which means convenient. I naturally leave my tongue on the roof of my mouth after the ん and morph it into the り where I then pull off. However, as far as I can tell Japanese drop their tongue between the two, but much faster than my tongue, which hasn't been doing that for 15 years, can handle. Thus I have to hack around it by swapping the り for a slightly harder "di" sort of sound where I put a little more explosive on the り. That fakes the same sound as reapplying the tongue until either I can do it right or I settle for my hack forever.
'R' or 'L'? - mentat_kgs - 2008-12-24
R from Spanish and Japanese do sound different. R's from different "Spanishes" sound different. If you don't hear the different, pay more attention.
'R' or 'L'? - kfmfe04 - 2008-12-24
welldone101 Wrote:I've yet to be able to discern a difference between the Japanese R and the Spanish R. Just use a flipped R like Spanish and you're fine.The reason is simple: the Spanish R approximation maybe works best for ろ and a little bit for れ, but it doesn't work for らりる. I don't know Spanish at all, but I find it surprising and weird that so many people seem to use this proxy.
Personally, I think the harder part of らりるれろ is saying it in words, for example べんり which means convenient...
For a Spanish R, do you curl your tongue? If so, it might not be such a good approximation.
I also find it bizarre that people are talking about a Japanese R. It's the equivalent of a Japanese native talking about an English ろ or ら; this is a major reason why many can't pronounce an English R or L correctly.
'R' or 'L'? - munia - 2008-12-25
I do something between the Spanish "r" and the Spanish "d". I'm Spanish (from Spain) and to my ears, Japanese "r" doesn't sound exactly like our "r", though it's very similar.
'R' or 'L'? - Erubey - 2008-12-25
Spain R's are different and mine's from mexico. The られる is not a problem at all, the only thing is that there are no words in spanish that use -rareru in a string, so its "new" in a way.
I just think its simpler this way because people say things like its between an L and a D, and I'm just like what? Where in between. It never made sense to me.
R's from different "Spanishes" sound different
Most english speakers are familiar with only Spain, Mexico or Cuba. The later two having the same R's and being basically the Japanese R. You roll your R's in japanese when you're mad! Its already there.
'R' or 'L'? - Tobberoth - 2008-12-25
brendanmacdonald Wrote:When you pronounce Japanese words with an 'R' in them, do you guys say 'R' or do you say 'L'?I just say the Japanese pronciation which is between R and L. Instead of picking one or the other, why not simply do it right?
I have been saying 'R' for a while now but have been advised that saying 'L' makes it sound much more natural. And I don't mean a half-'R', half-'L', but a pure 'L'.
Anyone got any advice on this?
'R' or 'L'? - kazelee - 2008-12-25
I've read studies that have said the English R does appear in Japanese when they say certain words. Hows about becoming a parrot?
'R' or 'L'? - thelooseteeth - 2008-12-25
snispilbor Wrote:Here's how I learned to pronounce a fan-freakin-tastically good Japanese R. (only works if you have a US accent)This totally works. Awesome.
Start by saying "water" repeatedly. Note that the "t" is actually a strange sound, sort of like a d... that strange sound is actually the Japanese R!
So, let's slowly morph "water" into a Japanese word, say, 見る.
water
water
water
water
watu
watu
watu
watu
witu
witu
witu
witu
mitu
(where the "t"'s all have the same sound as the "t" in "water") And there you go!
Note, once you learn this sound, it will NEVER sound anything like L or R again. Once you know all three of the sounds, they're totally different. If a Japanese person says otherwise, it's because they don't know the English ones
'R' or 'L'? - vosmiura - 2008-12-25
It's just not consistent when Japanese pronounce it, because it covers both sounds. Pronouncing as R is more common, like raburabu... never labulabu.
'R' or 'L'? - Tobberoth - 2008-12-25
The idea that their pronounciation jumps between R and L is founded in our own bias towards having both sounds. To Japanese people, it's just the same sound and that's how one should view it to get good at it. Trying to deduce whether it's an R or L in every word is just going to take time and it doesn't mean anything because it's just the same sound. It changes just like every letter in English does, simply because of the letters around it... it's not something you're supposed to actively think about.
'R' or 'L'? - mentat_kgs - 2008-12-25
Native people do see the difference between sounds in their languages - much better than non natives. They just learn the "borders" of these sounds better, maybe is that what you meant.
The comedian that imitates an yakuza putting a different accent and the audience that laughs both notice the different Rs and Ls.
They know that the strong R is manly yakuza on and that the soft L is girly.
About not knowing consciously how to throw this sounds, it is the same as grammar. There is no need to know the rules, only to abide to them.
'R' or 'L'? - alyks - 2008-12-25
Being a singer, I actually had to learn how to pronounce the 'ga', 'ka', 'ta', 'na', 'la', 'ra', and 'da' without moving the jaw. We're all capable of pronouncing a wide variety of sounds all within the same area with a little bit of practice, it's simply a matter of learning how it normally sounds, which I think is needed from exposure and imitation.
'R' or 'L'? - Tobberoth - 2008-12-25
mentat_kgs Wrote:Native people do see the difference between sounds in their languages - much better than non natives. They just learn the "borders" of these sounds better, maybe is that what you meant.They notice the change in sound in speech, yeah probably. But ask a Japanese person what the difference is between aRigatou and aLigatou and he will in all probabiliy say something like "There's no difference, you just said the same word twice". Just like we can't hear the difference in Korean between their consonants, they can't hear it. In Japanese, R is R, not R and L. Of course, one can learn of it, just in the same way as we learn to hear Japanese sounds by listening to a lot of Japanese audio, but it isn't part of the language the child learns.
The comedian that imitates an yakuza putting a different accent and the audience that laughs both notice the different Rs and Ls.
They know that the strong R is manly yakuza on and that the soft L is girly.
About not knowing consciously how to throw this sounds, it is the same as grammar. There is no need to know the rules, only to abide to them.
'R' or 'L'? - bodhisamaya - 2008-12-25
kfmfe04 Wrote:ら LA (tongue hits front of mouth)This is how I have been pronouncing it without really having any set rules. It is the way Japanese sounds to me so I have been repeating it.
り DI-light (tongue hits top of mouth)
る DU-light (tongue hits top of mouth)
れ DE/RE - no tongue-roll (tongue hits back of mouth), で is DE-harder
ろ DO/RO - no tongue-roll (tongue hits back of mouth), ど is DO-harder
'R' or 'L'? - Shirow66 - 2008-12-25
I'm often rather annoyed when I hear Japanese pronounce R sounds as L, because it reminds me of all the terrible "Chinese people say L instead of R, LMAO!" jokes that I'm so tired of. In my experience, which admittedly isn't vast, the L sound usually pops up only in songs or when spoken by females, and maybe by people with a lisp? To me, the L pronunciation just sounds wrong somehow.
'R' or 'L'? - SammyB - 2008-12-25
Tobberoth Wrote:I just say the Japanese pronciation which is between R and L. Instead of picking one or the other, why not simply do it right?Exactly...