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What concepts does Japanese struggle to express? - thermal - 2008-12-22
What do you struggle to convey in Japanese due to limitations and peculiarities of the language? How do you get around them?
I miss chocolate. - There is no word in Japanese that corresponds exactly to miss which surprises me because it is a pretty simply concept. さみしい seems to be the closest. In this situation I would say something like チョコレートを食べたいなぁ.
It was an interesting movie - The common word (おもしろい) for interesting doesn't distinguish between funny and interesting. Sometimes I want to say something was just interesting! I usually just say something like おもしろかった。知らない情報ばかりだった or some such.
She's hot - It seems that you can only say かわいい or きれい／美しい, neither of which convey the concept of well, most guys would want to have sex with her (ahem). There is セクシー but think this is half actions and half body, where as hot is purely a body thing. I will usually just say かわいい or 美しい.
What concepts does Japanese struggle to express? - Hashiriya - 2008-12-22
how about a simple 美人だ！ to your last example...
What concepts does Japanese struggle to express? - thermal - 2008-12-22
Maybe I am thinking of hot in terms of Australian English, but 美人 is different again. 美人 is similar to 美しい I think.
What concepts does Japanese struggle to express? - Hashiriya - 2008-12-22
i translate 美人 as "babe" myself... that would cover the "hot" definition as well... it's different than 美しい... it also matters in the way it is said... like if you heard おおい！！美人だ！！！ of course you would understand the meaning to be "babe"... of course if you wanted a better example, you could always just ask a japanese person...
What concepts does Japanese struggle to express? - saritza - 2008-12-22
Aside from 寂しいsabishii, 懐かしいnatsukashii and 恋しいkoishii can also be used to describe missing something, I think...for hot, I'd say bijin but there's probably some slang that would approximate it better that I just don't know.
The other day I was thinking how there's no real English approximation for 帰る.
Also I was trying to figure out how to say "period", as in "I just don't like going shopping period." (for instance, in response to someone asking if you dislike shopping for Christmas gifts, you know?) But I couldn't think of any exact approximation. Maybe "どうしても買い物が嫌い" or something?
However, in learning Japanese I always found I was much more surprised by the similarities in expressions (to English) than the differences.
What concepts does Japanese struggle to express? - Hashiriya - 2008-12-22
i think you guys are thinking about japanese in terms of english too much >_<
What concepts does Japanese struggle to express? - thermal - 2008-12-22
Interesting, I didn't know about 恋しい.
I agree that babe is a good approximation of 美人. I think the difference between babe and hot though, is that you can call someone that is badly dressed such as an attractive but geeky girl as hot, but it is strange to call them a babe.
I think this is even more so with 美人 which brings to mind some tall well dressed woman with attractive features.
What concepts does Japanese struggle to express? - alyks - 2008-12-23
I myself don't particularly care to try and express what I would in English in Japanese. Sure, there may be no way to express the the same "That girl is f--ing hot!" in Japanese, but I think it would be better to learn to see the same thing a Japanese person would see when they see a "f--ing hot" type of girl instead of trying to fit your native language type of thinking into Japanese. Different cultures speak differently about the same things.
What concepts does Japanese struggle to express? - radical_tyro - 2008-12-23
alyks Wrote:I myself don't particularly care to try and express what I would in English in Japanese. Sure, there may be no way to express the the same "That girl is f--ing hot!" in Japanese, but I think it would be better to learn to see the same thing a Japanese person would see when they see a "f--ing hot" type of girl instead of trying to fit your native language type of thinking into Japanese. Different cultures speak differently about the same things.What is your point and what do they say?
Hashiriya Wrote:i think you guys are thinking about japanese in terms of english too much >_<I don't think people in this thread are concerned so much with translating english to japanese, but how to express their feelings in Japanese (see topic). In order for us to communicate to each other what feelings we want to express, we use english.
An equivalent of 'miss' has always been missed by me. I didn't know of 恋しい which makes me wonder how often it's used.
What concepts does Japanese struggle to express? - alyks - 2008-12-23
radical_tyro Wrote:My *point* is that you should learn to speak Japanese by learning see the world and understand concepts through the Japanese perspective.alyks Wrote:I myself don't particularly care to try and express what I would in English in Japanese. Sure, there may be no way to express the the same "That girl is f--ing hot!" in Japanese, but I think it would be better to learn to see the same thing a Japanese person would see when they see a "f--ing hot" type of girl instead of trying to fit your native language type of thinking into Japanese. Different cultures speak differently about the same things.What is your point and what do they say?
Hashiriya Wrote:i think you guys are thinking about japanese in terms of english too much >_<I don't think people in this thread are concerned so much with translating english to japanese, but how to express their feelings in Japanese (see topic). In order for us to communicate to each other what feelings we want to express, we use english.
An equivalent of 'miss' has always been missed by me. I didn't know of 恋しい which makes me wonder how often it's used.
Learning to express yourself in Japanese is perfectly fine, but in order to do so you have to learn to see the world the same way Japanese do. When you say they want to know "how to express their feelings in Japanese", it's really closer to "how to express their feelings the same way they would in their native language in Japanese", which is not appropriate. Don't try and take English words/concepts and fit them in to Japanese. Learn Japanese words/concepts and learn to see the world the way Japanese do. One of the great things about language learning is that it's possible to bring a different awareness to expressing ideas differently, and possibly even different ideas.
What concepts does Japanese struggle to express? - vosmiura - 2008-12-23
チョコレートが恋しいです。
What concepts does Japanese struggle to express? - mattyjaddy - 2008-12-23
Alyks - That ("learn to speak Japanese by learning see the world and understand concepts through the Japanese perspective") may be something you feel you should do, but it's not a universal, inherently good or correct thing. Definitely not something everyone should or must do. I think it depends on your goals for language use and how you wish to live.
I can see value in maintaining a foreigner's identity/perspective when using a foreign language, even if it sometimes results in a misunderstanding that takes a bit of time to work out. I think it is very beneficial to gain an understanding of how Japanese people view things in general to help inform your comprehension of what they are saying. But it's not necessary to use that knowledge to make your speaking match theirs. As a foreigner, perhaps I want my listener to know that I view things differently. It can be good for cross-cultural understanding.
What concepts does Japanese struggle to express? - haplology - 2008-12-23
Yeah, and there are some benefits to retaining bits and pieces of a Western perspective (and you will always be seen as Western even if your Japanese sounds better than any native).
The "interesting" one is a big one. (面白い、興味深い、おかしい、etc). I have a couple Japanese friends who will actually switch to English when they want to say something is "interesting", as there is no equivalent. In school, I learned 面白い, which is really not the same. And it would confuse me when people meant they found something funny or amusing, and in English usage like that can be sarcastic.
Sarcasm is another tough one. My sense of humor doesn't always translate, but my Japanese friends still understand it. Describing it is more difficult. Ask a Japanese person who speaks English how to translate sarcastic. Sometimes you get ひにく or something, but they always seem unsure of it. Kind of like translating a dry British sense of humor - you almost have to use the word British, as dry doesn't totally sum it up.
What concepts does Japanese struggle to express? - sutebun - 2008-12-23
alyks Wrote:I myself don't particularly care to try and express what I would in English in Japanese. Sure, there may be no way to express the the same "That girl is f--ing hot!" in Japanese, but I think it would be better to learn to see the same thing a Japanese person would see when they see a "f--ing hot" type of girl instead of trying to fit your native language type of thinking into Japanese. Different cultures speak differently about the same things.やべぇ！まじで美人ッス！・・・・とか
And I agree with Hashiriya and Alyks. Almost anything can be expressed in Japanese. There might be some parts where things don't go over well, or cultural references that just can't be done, but for the most part I'd say you just need to find a new way to express what you want to say and stop translating. It might also be due to a lack of input; if you can't feel like you can gauge the situation and guess what a Japanese person would say, then it's likely because you haven't seen/been in that situation enough.
Edit: I think a better name for this topic would be, "What concepts are hard to express due to the incompatability of Japanese and English?" In that case, there are many things that can be discussed. But I don't think it's a good idea to say that "the Japanese language just can not inherently express this."
matty Wrote:but it's not a universal, inherently good or correct thingSometimes it's actually about correctness. You don't have to feel/think like a Japanese person, but in order to use the language correctly you'll need to know "what would a Japanese native speaker use in this situation"; not "how can I translate this English into Japanese".
Some examples of what Japanese people will do in English:
"As for...." (overuse. Americans won't say as for very often)
"I enjoyed..." (Instead of saying something simple like "It was fun/I had a good time")
"I went by/on foot" (there are appropiate usages, but my Japanese friends tend to use this phrase 95% of the time when they could have said "I walked here")
These aren't major language barriers, but when a speaker keeps using these phrases which aren't used as often by native speakers, it lets the listener know that they have unnatural English. These phrases are baggage from Japanese. There are more appropiate ways to express them in English. By not doing that they aren't protecting their identity or something, they are just simply not using the language appropiately.
Just because someone can use the language appropiately does not mean they are not representing their identity or that they are not able too. In my opinion, you'd be better able to since you could better explain to your listener just exactly what you mean in a way that they can understand compassionately.
It does depend on the learner's motivation and goals though. If you don't want to get to that high of a level, then it won't be important to learn. People are very good at understanding each other despite minor language barriers. But for those who want to be treated like a native speaker, this is a hurdle they must overcome.
What concepts does Japanese struggle to express? - samesong - 2008-12-23
"No"
What concepts does Japanese struggle to express? - Tobberoth - 2008-12-23
I think Alyks and Hashiriya are misunderstanding the problem. Sutebun is right on, more or less. Regardless of how language affects thinking, it's a wellknown fact that "all languages can express everything", this is the first thing you learn in linguistics. The question is how. I don't think it's interesting to discuss how Japanese people "miss" things (which is what I think Alkys said we should), you won't change your brain to do it in the same way. Instead, you can think of something you want to express, like "missing an item", and try to find out how to express this concept in Japanese. While it might sound like it from the first post, I doubt people here meant they want to find the Japanese word for "miss", THAT is trying to directly translate an english expression to Japanese. What is meant is more along the lines of "all people miss things, how come there is no simple word for it in Japanese? And since there isn't, what expressions do they use to convey the same semantic?".
I think it's perfectly viable to think of concepts in your native language and ponder how the same concept is expressed in japanese, because it CAN be expressed in Japanese, it's just a matter of having a different structure to do it. It might be more unusual (for example, you wouldn't hear a Japanese person say the equalient of "bless you" after you sneeze, but a japanese person COULD do it. A language doesn't hinder expression) but that doesn't mean you shouldn't learn it, I'd even go as far as to say it's even more important to learn it so you don't make up an equalivent yourself and use it too often. (Like saying "kami ga anata wo mamoru you ni" everytime someone sneezes, it would be very odd.)
What concepts does Japanese struggle to express? - BlackMarsh - 2008-12-23
thermal Wrote:What do you struggle to convey in Japanese due to limitations and peculiarities of the language? How do you get around them?There are no limitations in the Japanese language or in any language for that matter, at least not in the way you've described it. What you've described is a lack of direct translation into English. All languages are essentially the same as all language can describe any idea or emotion. Any linguist will tell you this. The only time you'd find something that can't be said in another language is when it's cultural. E.g. when Japan was first introduced to western ways of governance lots of new words (democracy, prime minister, parliament etc) had to be invented because Japanese lacked these words. Your example of "I miss chocolate" is not a cultural phrase, it is just another way of saying "I don't have any chocolate but I really want to eat it". When trying to work out how to say things in another language you have to go back to the very basic meaning of the sentence.
I miss chocolate. - There is no word in Japanese that corresponds exactly to miss which surprises me because it is a pretty simply concept. さみしい seems to be the closest. In this situation I would say something like チョコレートを食べたいなぁ.
It was an interesting movie - The common word (おもしろい) for interesting doesn't distinguish between funny and interesting. Sometimes I want to say something was just interesting! I usually just say something like おもしろかった。知らない情報ばかりだった or some such.
She's hot - It seems that you can only say かわいい or きれい／美しい, neither of which convey the concept of well, most guys would want to have sex with her (ahem). There is セクシー but think this is half actions and half body, where as hot is purely a body thing. I will usually just say かわいい or 美しい.
As for your other examples, yes, for "I miss chocolate" you'd say チョコレートが食べたいなぁ. I may be wrong but I think even 懐かしい could be used.
And there are dozens of ways to express "it was an interesting movie" in Japanese. 示唆に富む映画, 面白い映画, 興味深い映画 etc etc, all have different nuances.
For 'she's hot', what exactly are you looking for in Japanese? 熱い女? j/k! きれい, かわいい, 美人, セクシー plus all the other words are perfectly fine depending on the situation.
Esentially, when learning Japanese you've got to be careful not to fall into the trap of thinking that Japanese "lacks" something just because there's no decent 直訳 or direct translation. And besides, in almost every case 6 months or a year later you'll come across a way to describe the emotion or thought that you first thought couldn't be said.
Hope this helps.
What concepts does Japanese struggle to express? - mattyjaddy - 2008-12-23
samesong - LOL.
sutebun - What I wrote should be read in conjunction with what Alyks wrote. I was speaking about the extent to which Alyks said one should change their perspective when acquiring Japanese. I felt it implied not expressing things you would normally say in English since they aren't socio-linguistically acceptable/used in Japanese and, conversely, saying things in Japanese that you wouldn't normally say in English because they are situationally correct. I don't think it's necessary to change your cultural-linguistic identity to that extent.
I didn't speak of the correctness issues you mentioned. Specifically they are usage/frequency issues - how often, what register, what situation, etc. I mostly agree with your treatment of these issues. But knowing what a native speaker would say is different from needing to see things from a Japanese perspective which is what I was discussing.
Maybe an example of what I was talking about would be someone who always says "Bless you" in English when someone sneezes. They can't imagine not saying it. So they adopt "おだいじに" as an equivalent. It's not culturally appropriate but it accurately conveys their personality and linguistic identity. Another might be a Japanese person almost always saying "よし" when they finish something or put down something they've been carrying. It may feel weird for a non-native to adopt that when they don't normally say something in that situation in their mother tongue. So they say nothing but can still understand it when a Japanese person says it.
I think there is a continuum for how much one adopts the cultural perspective of the foreign language they are learning in order to employ it effectively. And where to be on that continuum is what I meant when I said it was up to the individual based on their goals and needs.
The lines of what is an example of culture and what is simply an example of linguistic correctness are sometimes difficult to draw. Is saying "教えてくれる" simply linguistics or an example of the cultural idea that receiving something puts you in a lower position? So in some cases it could just be a matter of mindset--choosing to see something as a cultural vs. linguistic feature of the language.
What concepts does Japanese struggle to express? - QuackingShoe - 2008-12-23
samesong Wrote:"No"Bahahahaha
What concepts does Japanese struggle to express? - thermal - 2008-12-23
I think some people are mistaking what I am saying. I didn't say what can't Japanese express but what does it struggle to express. I am not saying it is lacking or anything like that and I know there are Japanese words whose meaning can not easily be said in English.
My point with my examples was that you can express them, but to express the same meaning you usually end up sounding unnatural. The best thing in these situations is to choose a best fit rather than explain too much. Much like Tobberoth said, I think these are concepts rather than English words.
I bring it up mostly out of curiousity. I consider miss a pretty basic concept and it suprises me that it is not a word (or so I thought, maybe 恋しい is it, but I have asked Japanese people who speak English before and they never mentioned this word, so I think it is uncommon or antiquated). I find it curious that such a common word as おもしろい carries an inherient ambiguity.
To go the other way round 元気 is a concept that English struggles to express. It would be something like "He is pretty sound of mind and body and generally is friendly and energetic" or something. Anyway, please don't take this as English is better than Japanese or anything.
I personally do having something of a second personality when I speak Japanese, but much more so when I speak keigo to a superior (in whatever sense). I much more polite than I ever am when I speak English and I will be careful about speaking my mind. I do this because it is the culture and breaking from this is for me incorrect usage of the language.
I do struggle sometimes though. For example my boss at work is a friendly Japanese lady and when we use English we joke around like friends. When I speak to her in Japanese I usually speak without thinking and since in an English sense we have a very friendly relationship, I don't naturally come out with keigo.
One of my friends actually said the other day that my English and Japanese personality are the same. I was really happy that I am able to express myself to the degree that she thinks so!
What concepts does Japanese struggle to express? - QuackingShoe - 2008-12-23
The thing is that 'miss' in this sense actually ISN'T that basic of a concept. Or, it is at it's core, but we've complicated it. Think of the etymology here - it's something MISSING from you. That's actually pretty out there. But all it really means when you say it is that you want something, and that you used to have it. So you can just say that you want something, especially when the people you're talking to know by context that you used to have it anyway. If it isn't clear, you could just say you used to have it. But genuinely, in almost any context where you'd express that you miss something, you'd first establish that you used to have it anyway. And finally, they do have words for missing something (as listed), but they're not used in as wide a context.
Similarly, 元気 isn't a concept that English struggles to express. It means healthy and energetic. That's all. The only difference is that we don't mention that sort of thing in English very often, so actually saying it sounds awkward. But that's just a translation issue based on custom and culture, it has nothing to do with expressing the concept. The stereotypical exchange comes out the same as "How you doing?" "Feeling good!" and other examples just require a similar variety of expressions that still convey the same meaning within context. "Cheer up!" doesn't fail to express anything that 元気出して！ expresses - in particular contexts.
The point is, you're expressing the same thing, you're just using different words (sentences, idioms, proverbs) to do it.
What concepts does Japanese struggle to express? - iSoron - 2008-12-23
"I hope ~"
There is といいけど and alternatives, but I think it's not quite the same... まぁいいか…
What concepts does Japanese struggle to express? - Dragg - 2008-12-23
I think that languages struggle to express certain religiously or philosophically-based concepts if the land of the language wasn't influenced by the movements. For example, the Japanese concept of "zanshin" doesn't work well in English. It is commonly translated as a state of "relaxed awareness" but this doesn't really address the "power of now" and "passionate" implications of the word. When English admits loan-words into the language, I would say that this is often because English lacks a way of expressing it as well as the borrowed tongue. When you hear Westerners say terms like "moment of zen" it is because English lacks a way to describe the phenomena accurately without addressing the philosophical source.
Actually, the term in English that I think best represents zanshin is the phrase "in the zone" that is sometimes used by sports announcers to describe the mindset of athletes like Tiger Woods and Michael Jordan, but this is fairly recent and I think it reflects the way that "new age" idealogy has settled into pop cultures.
How about when Japanese people sometimes use "kami" to describe a monotheistic religion's god? That is a hard expression to make without resorting to loan-words.
I also think that the German word "leib" is very hard word to translate into English because it means "living body" but it carries a connotation of soulful existence (fused?) inside the corporeal plane of a body. I read an essay on it once and I still don't really understand the word so I think it is safe to say that languages can struggle with expressing certain ideas. I would certainly call a small explanatory paragrah a struggle anyway...
What concepts does Japanese struggle to express? - Tobberoth - 2008-12-23
iSoron Wrote:"I hope ~"Depends on situation, if you want to say something like "I hope you have a good trip" you use を afterwards. 楽しい旅行を！
There is といいけど and alternatives, but I think it's not quite the same... まぁいいか…
What concepts does Japanese struggle to express? - Dragg - 2008-12-23
Here's even more overthinking:
In regards to the example of the concept of "to miss something", I believe that it is also influenced indirectly by religion. In Western culture, we are raised with the ingrained cultural belief that we have a kind of void inside us, a sort of "hole in the soul." Western religions are based upon the foundational principle that we have been separated from God and physical paradise, Eden. We are even physically incomplete under this idealogy because the sexes were borne from a rib being taken from the first man's body. Because these beliefs occupied so much thought (probably initially as a coping mechanism in the harsh Middle East), I think a generalized concept of "missing" arose. As was pointed out by someone else, it's kind of a trippy unintuitive concept once you dissect it.
Therefore, I think the OP was 100 percent correct in the sense that this concept cannot be easily expressed in Japanese. In Japan, you have mainly influences of Shinto, Buddhist, and possibly Taoist nature. None of these religions have a sense of "missing" in the sense of generalized desire. In Buddhism, any type of longing is not considered conducive to spiritual cultivation. Shintoism and Taoism tend to be very holistic in worldview.