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+--- Thread: 255-> king, scepter, ball (/thread-2289.html)
255-> king, scepter, ball - gyuujuice - 2009-01-07
The primitive (king, scepter, ball) or the kanji king appears a lot but I always get the stroke order wrong. Sometimes there is a line and sometimes there isn't.
This is what I though would help:
splitting the primitive into two primitives
1) when the primitive looks like this 玉, it will be king
2) when the primitive looks like this 王, it will be ball
Is this a good idea? Or will this just confuse me even more?
Thank you in advance~
255-> king, scepter, ball - yukamina - 2009-01-07
Except 玉 is ball, and 王 is king.
255-> king, scepter, ball - Ben_Nielson - 2009-01-07
This post made me chuckle out loud.
Confusing indeed!I, oddly, never had a problem with this. I've had plenty of confusing things, just not this one. I don't know why...
Sometimes I'm a bit afraid to open up "this is confusing" threads in case I read them and actually begin confusing something I previously had no problems with. haha..
255-> king, scepter, ball - liosama - 2009-01-07
It doesn't really matter, i use king when i want to, and i use 'ball' when i see fit.
eg, jewellry ball for 珠 helps more than king would.
Likewise for
for 球, again, ball.
'king' examples
現 i use king here,
理 i used king
環 king here
Heisigs choice is etymologically correct though, because for all those characters that radical seems to be taken as stone/jem like meaning/primitive (don't ask me why). But use whatever you are most comfortable with as you can see i alternate wherever i feel n
255-> king, scepter, ball - annabel398 - 2009-01-07
I think I've read that the round jewel/ball (as opposed to the square jewel) represents not a ball (toy) but a ball of JADE, which is associated with kings. Or, if you want a more Euro-friendly memory hook, think of the ball as the orb that is one of the insignia of office of a king/queen.
Flesh and moon used to confuse me too (not mixing up the writing, just wondering WTF those two concepts had in common), until I found that the flesh radical that looks like moon is actually a simplification of the kanji for meat 肉 --> 月. That really cleared things up.
255-> king, scepter, ball - alyks - 2009-01-08
annabel398 Wrote:Flesh and moon used to confuse me too (not mixing up the writing, just wondering WTF those two concepts had in common), until I found that the flesh radical that looks like moon is actually a simplification of the kanji for meat 肉 --> 月. That really cleared things up.That's really interesting. Could you give us a source?
255-> king, scepter, ball - joxn_costello - 2009-01-08
alyks Wrote:Heisig mentions it in his note on frame 1022.annabel398 Wrote:Flesh and moon used to confuse me too (not mixing up the writing, just wondering WTF those two concepts had in common), until I found that the flesh radical that looks like moon is actually a simplification of the kanji for meat 肉 --> 月. That really cleared things up.That's really interesting. Could you give us a source?
255-> king, scepter, ball - oregum - 2009-01-08
joxn_costello Wrote:I think Heisig refer to it as an "abbreviated form" for his own purposes - ie. primitives. 月 is considered a pictograph, because it looks like a crescent with a cloud in front of it.alyks Wrote:Heisig mentions it in his note on frame 1022.annabel398 Wrote:Flesh and moon used to confuse me too (not mixing up the writing, just wondering WTF those two concepts had in common), until I found that the flesh radical that looks like moon is actually a simplification of the kanji for meat 肉 --> 月. That really cleared things up.That's really interesting. Could you give us a source?
see this, its in the first few pages
http://www.scribd.com/doc/6560635/Basic-Kanji-Book-Vol-1-2
255-> king, scepter, ball - Katsuo - 2009-01-08
gyuujuice Wrote:The primitive (king, scepter, ball) or the kanji king appears a lot but I always get the stroke order wrong. Sometimes there is a line and sometimes there isn't.It's confusing because RTK refers to:
玉 as "jewel"
王 as either "king", "jewel" or "ball".
Therefore, if you remember that a particular kanji contains the primitive "jewel", which is it, 王 or 玉?
玉 is the less common form, only in 256玉, 257宝, 581国, 2075璽, 2249掴, (also in 璧 which is not in RTK, but is in the common word 完璧).
Anyway, I got it straight in my mind by calling 玉 "earring" (i.e. a specific kind of jewel).
255-> king, scepter, ball - oregum - 2009-01-08
I never had this problem because I always thought of
王 as king
玉 as a jewel
for example"
珠 the 'king' 'vermilion' clam is where a pearl comes from
球 I 'requested' an audience with the 'king' but he showed me his balls and left
If two kanji/primitives are different I will either think of them as unique characters, or I will add something to my story to explain the added strokes
255-> king, scepter, ball - Raichu - 2009-01-08
With RTK you need to separate the etymology of the kanji from it's modern appearance.
王 is the kanji for king, no problem there.
玉 is the kanji for jewel/ball, but it does appear to change it's form to 王 when it's a left component.
The question each of us needs to answer individually is, do we make up mnemonics based on primitives 王=king, 玉=jewel, which is the simplest approach (I try to follow this as much as possible)? Or can we--without getting confused--make up mnemonics with 王=king or jewel, 玉=jewel?
It's pretty much the same with flesh and moon/month. 肉=flesh and 月=moon/month. However, 肉 more commonly appears as 月 or as 月 with a straight left side. In this case our options are made much more difficult because for so many kanji it's pretty obvious that 月=flesh (胆, 肺, ...).
255-> king, scepter, ball - Tobberoth - 2009-01-08
Personally I think it's really easy. king is 王. jewel is 玉. Both become 理 on the side, so just pick jewel or king depending on what fits the story. Since they are written the exact same as a radical, it doesn't matter which one you pick.
255-> king, scepter, ball - gyuujuice - 2009-01-08
How embarrassing! I mixed hem up. >.>;
I am going to stick to my plan; it doesn't look too destructive.