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Tokyo fishmarket closed for foreigners - Tobberoth - 2008-12-18
plumage Wrote:You want me to find statistics on how much more violent on average people in the military are compared to the general populus? Come on, this is common knowledge. I'm not judging people in the army, i'm just saying there's a lot of people there who shouldn't be allowed to carry a gun simply because how badly they want to.Tobberoth Wrote:(The army just happens to have a higher ratio of sick people).Than...? And you know this because...?
Tokyo fishmarket closed for foreigners - b0ng0 - 2008-12-18
kazelee:
It's a pretty big place, but you go inside this big building and there are all these sort-of "stalls".. it wasn't lit very well when I was there (it was about 6:30am in November mind you..). It smells a bit... and the paths are narrow, covered in fishy water, with people running around like headless chickens and guys on these motorised vehicles.. it's pretty scarey. But I managed to talk to one of the guys by his fish and he was really friendly even though he didn't speak English... no hostility or a sense we were interfering.. I guess so long as you don't get in the way or be a complete tool then it's cool.
Tokyo fishmarket closed for foreigners - plumage - 2008-12-18
Tob: The military is intended to do violent things, but being violent and being "sick" are not necessarily equivalent. I'd guess cops are generally more violent, too. That stands to reason--wusses would likely not want to be either. I don't mind the characterization that either group are more "violent" than others, but saying that that makes them sick is odd, considering every nation depends on these so-called sick people for their civility (cops) and sovereignty (military).
Tokyo fishmarket closed for foreigners - bodhisamaya - 2008-12-18
The subject of the military has always been a challenging thing for me to bring up because it brings out very emotional things in people. I rarely speak of the things I saw during my time in service to people. I probably should not have mentioned it on a public forum, though it was very toned down compared to what I actually witnessed. I don't blame the kids serving. They are just kids and the peer pressure is overwhelming. They enter an environment surrounded by those who have been hardened by all sorts of tragedy. It is unnatural for human beings to kill other human beings. It affects the way one thinks. I wrote a letter to the editor last year for our tiny newspaper here in Kauai when debate over the Iraq war got the better of me. It got a fire-storm of angry replies:
At 18 we are considered mature enough to make a decision on whether or not to smoke. At 21, we are considered mature enough to make a decision on whether or not to drink. If we are over 18, in most states, we are not allowed to have sex with those under 18 because they are not aware enough to understand the consequences of that action. Why do we then allow military recruiters to talk to our youth? Can there be any decision that requires more maturity than to join an organization that will require one to take a weapon and kill another human being? Can a 17 year old understand the consequences of dropping a bomb on a target and killing innocent civilians for political purposes? Is he/she mature enough to make a decision that could lead to his/her own death, permanent hearing loss, stress related illness or psychological effects of possibly killing or deforming a child or mother in battle one day? If we want to teach patriotism then encourage our youth into charitable organizations that promotes America's image abroad. Keep military recruiters away from our youth in our schools until they are at least old enough to drink a beer legally. Then they could make a more clear choice on whether fighting a war to protect corporate interests and cheap fuel is worth a GI bill or career training.
Tokyo fishmarket closed for foreigners - kazelee - 2008-12-18
b0ng0 Wrote:kazelee:Thank you
It's a pretty big place, but you go inside this big building and there are all these sort-of "stalls".. it wasn't lit very well when I was there (it was about 6:30am in November mind you..). It smells a bit... and the paths are narrow, covered in fishy water, with people running around like headless chickens and guys on these motorised vehicles.. it's pretty scarey. But I managed to talk to one of the guys by his fish and he was really friendly even though he didn't speak English... no hostility or a sense we were interfering.. I guess so long as you don't get in the way or be a complete tool then it's cool.
Tokyo fishmarket closed for foreigners - Tobberoth - 2008-12-18
plumage Wrote:Tob: The military is intended to do violent things, but being violent and being "sick" are not necessarily equivalent. I'd guess cops are generally more violent, too. That stands to reason--wusses would likely not want to be either. I don't mind the characterization that either group are more "violent" than others, but saying that that makes them sick is odd, considering every nation depends on these so-called sick people for their civility (cops) and sovereignty (military).I'm just saying, the army does some things which will attract sick people. Just like a dirty toilet will have more bugs, the army will have more sick people. On the news, they tell us about how the army are scum, how they treat prisoners of war, how they throw puppies of cliffs (an internet video I don't want to see again). I don't believe that. I believe the army is filled with decent people. Still, just like in any group of people, there's the bad ones and they are always the most visible. In the case of the army, where the bad ones might have more freedom to express their... "badness"... well, what we get is the problems that the army is accused of all the time.
Tokyo fishmarket closed for foreigners - bodhisamaya - 2008-12-18
Tobberoth Wrote:I'm just saying, the army does some things which will attract sick people. Just like a dirty toilet will have more bugs, the army will have more sick people.Ouch! Might want to change that analogy.
Tokyo fishmarket closed for foreigners - oregum - 2008-12-18
Uploading my photos of Tsukiji. They are probably going to be out of order. But if you follow the photo names numerically, it should give you some idea of how the market is laid out.
http://www.zooomr.com/photos/voh/sets/41832/
Tokyo fishmarket closed for foreigners - Tobberoth - 2008-12-18
bodhisamaya Wrote:Heh yeah, maybe it was a bit uncalled for... I actually didn't intend it that way, really. I just couldn't think of any better analogy of something calling something else together without being innately bad.Tobberoth Wrote:I'm just saying, the army does some things which will attract sick people. Just like a dirty toilet will have more bugs, the army will have more sick people.Ouch! Might want to change that analogy.
Tokyo fishmarket closed for foreigners - Ji_suss - 2008-12-18
Tobberoth Wrote:How about leaving it up to the UN, the institution we all have DECIDED to be the world police? If the US stops vetoing everything and do everything their own way, we might actually have a world police people can agree with.Sure, the same UN where tiny countries like Tuvalu or Kiribati, representing miniscule populations, have the same vote as India with 1 billion or USA with 300 million? And do you really think that dictatorships or one-party states should be on an equal footing with democracies at the UN? (The dictators, failed states, etc are happy to count votes at the UN--just not in their own countries).
Tokyo fishmarket closed for foreigners - Dragg - 2008-12-18
@Ji_suss
It's not equal footing. Only five countries have the power to veto, most of which are democracies.
And, btw, some people seem to enjoy living under a dictatorship. A democracy only really works when most people are politically aware and concerned about the issues anyway. In the modern U.S., most people only seem to pay close attention to their vote when big problems arise, as in now that the economy is falling apart and we're in the midst of a never-ending war.
Tokyo fishmarket closed for foreigners - plumage - 2008-12-19
You really think Russia is a democracy? Wow. That's 2/5 dictatorships.
Tob and bodhis: good follow-up comments. I only resented the immediate implication, which sounded like typical military-bashing. bodhis' comments deserve lots of good discussion, but I think that'd be two tangents too far for this topic. Another time!
The age-limit thing is the biggest topic there. It's so tempting to get into the implications of what 18-yr olds are and are not capable of reasonably deciding. Urgghhhh....must....resist.... :-D
Tokyo fishmarket closed for foreigners - Tobberoth - 2008-12-19
Ji_suss Wrote:Sure, the same UN where tiny countries like Tuvalu or Kiribati, representing miniscule populations, have the same vote as India with 1 billion or USA with 300 million? And do you really think that dictatorships or one-party states should be on an equal footing with democracies at the UN? (The dictators, failed states, etc are happy to count votes at the UN--just not in their own countries).Yes, I do. In the USA, do stupid people have less of a right to vote than really smart people? No. Why not? Because everyone is equally affected. Same with the UN, it doesn't matter how many people there are in the USA, it's still ONE country and they should have no more power in a world police than any other ONE country. The point of the "world police" should be that it takes every country into consideration, the US, Russia and other big countries shouldn't be able to gang up on smaller countries just because those countries are small.
Yes, if a dictatorship or one-party state is "good enough" to join the UN, they should have the same voting rights as everyone else. It's up to the UN to come up with demands on how the member countries should act, not American ideals.
Tokyo fishmarket closed for foreigners - Ji_suss - 2008-12-20
@ Dragg I was talking about general votes, most resolutions, condemnation votes, etc in which every country participates on a one-country one-vote basis. But since you bring it up, the fact that 5 countries have veto power just bolsters my original point that the UN is fairly dysfunctional.
About living under a dictatorship, an analogy: I was happy when I lived with my parents under their roof and following their rules, but a person has to grow up sometime and take responsibility for one's life, including one's government. I feel that democracy, (by which I mean a combination of the rule of law and the power to change governments), is the only "adult" form of government yet developed. But i agree with the subtext of your point (if I read it correctly, and continuing the analogy) that I don't think we should be dragging 20-somethings out of their homes and forcing them to be responsible adults (democracies) until they have the skills to handle independence(democracy and rule of law), UNLESS the parents pose a threat to their
safety.
@Tobberoth
You say that all votes are equal, but clearly they aren't. The government which represents my country in the UN was sent there by voting age folks drawn from a population of 32 million. The government which represents your country was sent to the UN by voting age folks drawn from a population of 9 million. But our countries each have one vote in the General Assembly. You have more power at the UN than I do. At the level of the individual it is patently unfair.
I agree with your point that the UN shouldn't allow larger countries to gang up on smaller ones. But in the real world, the UN has no power to stop them, unless it can get another Great Power to stand up to them. It's too bad.
Re: dictatorships being "good enough" for the UN. If the majority of the states were dictatorships, and they decided that they would not condemn an attack on Sweden by Russia, would you feel that was okay? Of course not. You would say the attack was wrong because you know right from wrong, because you likely share the ideals of freedom, equality, responsible government and the rule of law---oops, sorry, those are American ideals...;-)
Sorry to all--i guess I've contributed to a massive sidetracking of this thread. Feel free to ignore my post and return to Tsukiji!
Tokyo fishmarket closed for foreigners - Nukemarine - 2008-12-20
Tobberoth Wrote:Tobberoth, you`re comparing an entire population to a group that has a small demographic: 18-24 year olds, male, not involved in a family. Now, take that same demographic, say from a major college and compare the uncivil activities. I think you`ll find the military compares better of the two. Part of the reason is the military tends to be more harsh when you step out of line.plumage Wrote:You want me to find statistics on how much more violent on average people in the military are compared to the general populus? Come on, this is common knowledge. I'm not judging people in the army, i'm just saying there's a lot of people there who shouldn't be allowed to carry a gun simply because how badly they want to.Tobberoth Wrote:(The army just happens to have a higher ratio of sick people).Than...? And you know this because...?
Does that mean college attracts sick people? No, its that at that age group we get the more violent, uncivil types. Problems just become more apparent when you collect them in a group than remove social controls (say like parents).
By the way, I`m wary when people say something is common knowledge.
Tokyo fishmarket closed for foreigners - Tobberoth - 2008-12-20
Ji_suss Wrote:@TobberothYes, it is unfair on an individual level, but that doesn't matter since the UN is handled on an international level. While everyone in the US might not have the same opinion, in an international level voting they would all have the USes interests in mind. Which means that if something is good for the US, the majority of people in the US will vote in favor. When something is in favor of Sweden, the majority of Swedes will vote for it. Should the US have a better chance to make things go in favor for their country just because they have a bigger populus? No.
You say that all votes are equal, but clearly they aren't. The government which represents my country in the UN was sent there by voting age folks drawn from a population of 32 million. The government which represents your country was sent to the UN by voting age folks drawn from a population of 9 million. But our countries each have one vote in the General Assembly. You have more power at the UN than I do. At the level of the individual it is patently unfair.
I agree with your point that the UN shouldn't allow larger countries to gang up on smaller ones. But in the real world, the UN has no power to stop them, unless it can get another Great Power to stand up to them. It's too bad.
Re: dictatorships being "good enough" for the UN. If the majority of the states were dictatorships, and they decided that they would not condemn an attack on Sweden by Russia, would you feel that was okay? Of course not. You would say the attack was wrong because you know right from wrong, because you likely share the ideals of freedom, equality, responsible government and the rule of law---oops, sorry, those are American ideals...;-)
Sorry to all--i guess I've contributed to a massive sidetracking of this thread. Feel free to ignore my post and return to Tsukiji!
If the majority of the UN, regardless of government style, decided they wouldn't condemn an attack on Sweden, Sweden would have to oppose it and then there would be nothing else to do. We joined the UN, we have to abide by the rules in it. Sweden wouldn't be a part of a UN where the majority of the members are dictatorships though (that would mean the UN goes against Swedish ideas, as well as American ideas). My point wasn't that dictatorships and "crap" countries like that should be allowed in the UN just like that. My point was that the UN should make the rules for when they should be allowed in or not, no one else. If the UN won't do that properly, let's leave it and create a new "world organization/police" which have ideals we agree with which won't let just anyone in.
Tokyo fishmarket closed for foreigners - kazelee - 2008-12-20
Quote:Yes, it is unfair on an individual level, but that doesn't matter since the UN is handled on an international level. While everyone in the US might not have the same opinion, in an international level voting they would all have the USes interests in mind. Which means that if something is good for the US, the majority of people in the US will vote in favor. When something is in favor of Sweden, the majority of Swedes will vote for it. Should the US have a better chance to make things go in favor for their country just because they have a bigger populus? No.You make it sound like the citizens of the US actually have a say in international policy. They don't. Really.
Tokyo fishmarket closed for foreigners - Tobberoth - 2008-12-20
Nukemarine Wrote:You might very well be right here. From what I've seen though (which might not be correct at all, I have no statistics or anything to support it), most of the horrible things we see mentioned (the rapes, the dog throwing, the hurting and torturing prisoners etc) were all commited by adult armymen, at least not 18-20 year olds.Tobberoth Wrote:You want me to find statistics on how much more violent on average people in the military are compared to the general populus? Come on, this is common knowledge. I'm not judging people in the army, i'm just saying there's a lot of people there who shouldn't be allowed to carry a gun simply because how badly they want to.Tobberoth, you`re comparing an entire population to a group that has a small demographic: 18-24 year olds, male, not involved in a family. Now, take that same demographic, say from a major college and compare the uncivil activities. I think you`ll find the military compares better of the two. Part of the reason is the military tends to be more harsh when you step out of line.
Does that mean college attracts sick people? No, its that at that age group we get the more violent, uncivil types. Problems just become more apparent when you collect them in a group than remove social controls (say like parents).
By the way, I`m wary when people say something is common knowledge.
As for the military being harsh, I think that makes people disciplined but at the same time hurts people. Being verbally and physically abused isn't good for a person and might lead to other mental problems.
As for saying something is common sense, that's even allowed in academic situations so I don't see why you're vary of it. There are facts which are so obvious, you don't have to cite sources and that's the same thing. Search on some fact on google. If the first 10 pages agree on the fact, you don't have to cite it because... it's common knowledge. For example, when I write an academic paper, I don't write sources for the statement "the sun is yellow". If I had to, the whole paper would be an appendix of sources. I simply write it and expect the reader to agree. (You can of course disagree whether what I said in my previous post WAS common sense or not though, it's not like I actually did any search on google etc).
Tokyo fishmarket closed for foreigners - Ben_Nielson - 2008-12-20
Quick notes: I'm a very liberal, midwestern American. Almost always, I'll complain without much reason at all about our military.
Anyways, I gotta agree with Nukemarine's last post there that you have to look at the same type of samples. You can't compare it to total population. I'd further be interested in seeing US Military crime rates vs. other nation's military crime rates. I'm making no assumptions there, just saying it would be interesting to see.
Now of course, military bases do inherently create high concentrations of individuals fitting these descriptions. So obviously, it's going to create a problem anywhere there's a military base (or, as Nukemarine pointed out, a University). I went to college in a town of 5,000 people with a university with around 5,000 students. There was constant friction between the townspeople (who blamed the students for all the town's troubles) and the students (who thought the townspeople were being a wet blanket). Obviously, both sides were a little correct.
Anyways, interesting reading about Okinawan crime rates:
http://nihon.awardspace.com/okinawa_sofa_crime.html
http://www.dprkstudies.org/documents/asia015.html
http://www.japan-press.co.jp/2567/us_forces_5.html
(I'm not gonna vouch for the research these sites did or anything, though the first two cited sources... )
To basically sum those sites up, the US Military has a significantly lower crime rate than native Okinawans of the same demographic.
Another interesting read, albeit about South Korea.
http://rokdrop.com/2008/02/27/gi-myths-is-the-us-military-crime-rate-in-korea-out-of-control/
I think it's also worth noting that military crime rates drastically increase in high tension areas or areas actively involved in combat.
It feels like many of these situations then get applied to the military as a whole, where they're really a product of an insane situation more than the (types of) individuals taking part.
By the way, (a very, very few) Japanese soldiers ate Allied prisoners in World War II. War makes people bleeping crazy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_war_crimes#Cannibalism
Last edit, about "common knowledge" and, more specifically, media sensationalism and public fears... During my childhood (I'm 26 now), on Halloween my parents were always really paranoid about razors, needles, and poison in my Halloween candy. There was this fear, supported by so many years of local news reporting, that strangers were trying to poison children. This belief was very real and considered by most to be just common sense that, "Of course strangers might poison our children!" In truth, there were extremely few cases of this ever really happening at all. But every year, my parents and I sorted through all of my candy looking for razor blades. heh...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poisoned_candy_scare
Edit: I keep finding interesting stuff to add.
Tokyo fishmarket closed for foreigners - Nukemarine - 2008-12-20
Tobberoth, when you say something is "common knowledge" my statistics BS detector goes off is all. Look, I`ve been in the military for 15 years (US Marines and Navy), but I`m definately in the minority in that I`m liberal. However, I try to keep a fair view of the military.
When you say that the military was more violent (than the general population) as common knowledge, I think of the common knowledge of Blacks in the US having a higher poverty rate (than the general population). What was left out was if you compared the poverty rate of married black famlies to married white families, and did the same for single parent families, you`ll notice the disparity of poverty rates disappear. It wasn`t a race issue, but a marriage one. Now, blacks had a higher single mother rate but at least we`re closer to the real issue.
Now, the crime rate of the military is lower than compared to the same population type. Some of this is lack of reporting. Some of it is being punished in house. But even if that`s taken in consideration and removing crimes that are not crimes in the civilian sector (being late, back talking to the boss), the military has a lower crime rate. It`s just noticed easier. Some of it is that few people are labeled by where they work when their crime gets reported. Kind of like how the Japanese will point out if a guy is a foreigner. In addition, the military is selective (though it laxes standards a lot) which skews results in the military`s favor.
So yeah, you can say something is common knowledge, but that does not make it true. Even with hard statistics, be wary of the guy trying to pull a fast one.
As for the horrible things on YouTube, am I allowed to let a single video by a college fraternity to be used to mar all college students? Look, stupid leprechaun exist. Now at least we`re seeing how stupid they are thanks to the internet. All you have is a jerk who thinks he can get away with something, filming himself doing it, then we see the results. If you tube were around in the 1800`s, you may have videos of cowboys having sex with each others and animals. Doesn`t mean much, just that guys thought they could get away with it and did it. More about a lack of supervision. Wait, shoot, lost my point.
Oh yeah, people are jerks.
PS: The sun is not yellow. EVERY Japanese person knows it is red.
Tokyo fishmarket closed for foreigners - Ji_suss - 2008-12-20
i agree with the above posters. People over 30 commit fewer crimes no matter the country. Crime rates in North America have fallen as the population under thirty has decreased. (I can dig up the stats if necessary!) Even if the military were responsible for more crimes (and compelling evidence has been presented here by Neilson and Nukemarine to show that it is not), that could be accounted for by the fact that the members of the military are largely under 30.
Tokyo fishmarket closed for foreigners - Ji_suss - 2008-12-20
kazelee Wrote:You make it sound like the citizens of the US actually have a say in international policy. They don't. Really.Come on, it's that kind of cynical and apathetic attitude which ensures that you never will!
Tokyo fishmarket closed for foreigners - Ji_suss - 2008-12-20
Tobberoth Wrote:[ If the UN won't do that properly, let's leave it and create a new "world organization/police" which have ideals we agree with which won't let just anyone in.I agree. In the meantime, it looks like coalitions of nations with similar interests will work together regionally. I guess that's why NATO, instead of the UN, is in Afghanistan. And why the African Union ('though it has much less scope to operate) is trying to do something in Darfur. It's the best we've got for now. But it does set a bad precedent for ignoring the UN (or rather, ignoring the ideals of a perfect UN) and just doing what you want if you've got enough neighbours to join you.
Good point about national interest.
Tokyo fishmarket closed for foreigners - Ji_suss - 2008-12-20
Re: yellow or red sun
My students in Japan always drew red suns and chose orange crayons to colour (Japanese) people's skin. "hadairo" was really orangey.
Tokyo fishmarket closed for foreigners - bodhisamaya - 2008-12-20
The under 30 argument is a good one. More specific would be 18-22 as that would be a first enlistment range. The statistics are probably very similar to the general population since we feel invincible in that stage of life and and perhaps very selfish if I can remember my own mindset back then. I am not sure how many of the actual crimes commited by members of the military actually make it on the stat sheet though. What percentage of these crimes are dealt with internally by the company commander if the MPs arrive at a scene on base?