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+--- Thread: Tokyo fishmarket closed for foreigners (/thread-2258.html)
Tokyo fishmarket closed for foreigners - Dragg - 2008-12-17
@ kaze
I tried to answer your question but I guess I wasn't clear enough. The reason you can tell who is a tourist/spectator is that you have to be pre-registered as an auction participant. Basically, you have to have a badge, papers, or something like that to get in. The point is that you need to prove that you are supposed to be there and the color of your skin or passport has nothing to do with it. It's not an auction open to the general public including the Japanese public; It's probably only open to people within that industry occupation. Discrimination is not irrelevant at all to how the story was spun by some of the local media who reported it. Many of the local media publications spun it into a story about how discrimination is justified in this case of supposedly *only* obnoxious gaijin. Maybe Japanese tourists tend not to go there because it is in their own country and the idea of a fish auction bores them to tears. (I know it would for me.) People on holiday in another country tend to be off from work and have more time on their hands for crap like this and getting into trouble. As the common expression goes, "Dont piss in your own pool."
Like I said before, it's not a normal "fish-market." Its an auction. That's why you can't just wander around. Lots of auctions aren't open to the general public so this story is barely newsworthy if at all. The selling point is obnoxious foreigners and not the story itself which is why they spun it that way.
@ Jasta
I wasn't trying to blame you. I was merely pointing out the TV report was molded to create a distinct highly biased reality that doesn't necessarily exist. If you type in "Tokyo Fish Market" into google news search you will find a whole load of different versions including one where a trader was quoted saying that southeast asians have been the main disturbance and that Europeans have only caused problems recently. But of course, this probably reflects the traders own personal bias because how is he immediately distinguishing that it is southeast Asians and not in fact Japanese sometimes? I'm guessing that the fish were mainly large and possibly hanging. The main problem other than photagraphy seems to be lots of people trying to pose with the fish which raised hygiene/safety concerns.
Just because the Europeans were the only ones shown being obnoxious doesn't mean that it represents the totality of the situation. I wouldn't be surprised if they have other footage of asians that was edited out, especially in light of what has been written in other versions of the same story.
Tokyo fishmarket closed for foreigners - Dragg - 2008-12-17
Since my last post, I have learned that it is actually the largest fish market in the world, hence all the tourism. However, tourists are NOT being banned from the fish market in entiriety, but only from the pre-dawn auctions that are held in the main hall building. Now you need to have credentials to get into this building.
Tokyo fishmarket closed for foreigners - bodhisamaya - 2008-12-17
Nukemarine Wrote:Just saying that the military draws it's people from the US population.I am not so sure this is true if you mean they are a sampling of Americans in general. I served in the military right out of high school in the late 80's. I knew nothing of the outside world and thought it was my only way to escape red-neckville, Arkansas. I was stationed at Ft. Bragg, N.C.. Rape was common-place and joked about openly (for those who have not been in that environment, I know it is difficult to believe but it was true). Every time a girl came forward, nothing ever came of it. There was an animal-like mentality and lack of perceived consequences for actions. This was 20 years ago and perhaps things have changed, but I doubt it as the standards for admission in the military have steadily been reduced to nothing.
Tokyo fishmarket closed for foreigners - kazelee - 2008-12-17
Dragg Wrote:@ kazeDiscrimination was irrelevant to what I was trying to understand, is what I meant. Thank you for divulging this information. All I got, at first, was tourist being banned from fish-markets, and immediately logic did not compute. When you brought up the auction, I immediately thought pictures, and thus labeled the happenings as two separate events. Now that I know they were auctioning fish in a closed location at the fist market my brain can rest - at least until I get back to studying.
I tried to answer your question but I guess I wasn't clear enough. The reason you can tell who is a tourist/spectator is that you have to be pre-registered as an auction participant. Basically, you have to have a badge, papers, or something like that to get in. The point is that you need to prove that you are supposed to be there and the color of your skin or passport has nothing to do with it. It's not an auction open to the general public including the Japanese public; It's probably only open to people within that industry occupation. Discrimination is not irrelevant at all to how the story was spun by some of the local media who reported it.
Tokyo fishmarket closed for foreigners - oregum - 2008-12-17
I was there in August. It's a really big, really busy fish market. They have auctions for bulk sales/tuna at dawn. I was there around 7 (after a great party at the NewLex). Around the entrance areas there are a bunch of souvenir, restaurant, little shop areas. After that you walk past the fork-lift & fish-cart-thing highway, and arrive at a gigantic covered fish market. I walked around for about an hour and still only saw a fraction. But after seeing 20 kinds of shrimp and 25 kinds of shellfish I had enough.
I've been to other fish markets (Dubai) and can't imagine them banning tourists. I mean, it's a fish market. There are prices on everything, and they will sell you anything you want. I saw housewives buying dinner, and restaurant employees buying by 20-30 pounds. I think its a misunderstanding of who is being banned from what. It's probably as Dragg said, everyone who is not registered/licensed is banned from the pre-dawn auctions. I suspect the rest of the market is open to everyone.
As a side note, the merchants really don't like tourists. They throw water on the fish and try to splatter you with it. As I was walking around, some guy just decided to dump a 50 gallon drum of fish-juice-water right in front of me. (Again, I was coming form the NewLex so my trip was a trial in not getting fish-splatter all over my clothes... Aw, silly gaijin memories)
If anyone is interested, I've been meaning to upload a few hundred photos to zooomr for months. Let me know, I'll post a link.
Tokyo fishmarket closed for foreigners - Dragg - 2008-12-17
@ oregum
Sure, I'd like to see.
But...
You're not one of those crazy gaijin who was hugging the fish for a photo op are you?!?
:O
J/K
Tokyo fishmarket closed for foreigners - activeaero - 2008-12-17
oregum Wrote:If anyone is interested, I've been meaning to upload a few hundred photos to zooomr for months. Let me know, I'll post a link.Post away.
Tokyo fishmarket closed for foreigners - chochajin - 2008-12-17
Uh .. wait .. are you serious?
The fishmarket was on my plan for this winter vacation!!! ;____; ....
Tokyo fishmarket closed for foreigners - Ji_suss - 2008-12-17
Dragg Wrote:Nobody ever gave the US a free pass to police the world and yet we do.Well, actually, WWII gave the US a free pass to police Japan, as well as most of the Pacific. And continued J-US defence agreements show that while the Japanese want the Americans out, they're afraid of what will happen to Japan without the US to do the heavy-lifting in the region. And so they remain, for now at least.
As for the rest of the world, it seems that whenever there's a problem somewhere (Taleban Afghanistan during the 1990's, Darfur now, Rwanda, Burundi, former Yugoslavia in the 1990's, etc.) people are always saying "Why doesn't the US DO something!" But as soon as they do, they're all "Yankee imperialists go home!" The US is damned if it does, damned if it doesn't. Classic no-win situation.
Sorry to digress from the Tsukiji story. Just wanted you to know that you need not beat yourselves up for being the world police. I don't see anyone else stepping up to the plate. China? Russia? ha
Tokyo fishmarket closed for foreigners - dilandau23 - 2008-12-18
bodhisamaya Wrote:I am not so sure this is true if you mean they are a sampling of Americans in general. I served in the military right out of high school in the late 80's. I knew nothing of the outside world and thought it was my only way to escape red-neckville, Arkansas. I was stationed at Ft. Bragg, N.C.. Rape was common-place and joked about openly (for those who have not been in that environment, I know it is difficult to believe but it was true). Every time a girl came forward, nothing ever came of it. There was an animal-like mentality and lack of perceived consequences for actions. This was 20 years ago and perhaps things have changed, but I doubt it as the standards for admission in the military have steadily been reduced to nothing.I am not a big fan of the military as an institution, but I find blanket statements about the people serving in the military bigoted and somewhat offensive.
Tokyo fishmarket closed for foreigners - bodhisamaya - 2008-12-18
dilandau23 Wrote:I am not a big fan of the military as an institution, but I find blanket statements about the people serving in the military bigoted and somewhat offensive.I was giving my personal experience in the military. Were you offended by my personal experience?
Tokyo fishmarket closed for foreigners - Tobberoth - 2008-12-18
Ji_suss Wrote:Sorry to digress from the Tsukiji story. Just wanted you to know that you need not beat yourselves up for being the world police. I don't see anyone else stepping up to the plate. China? Russia? haHow about leaving it up to the UN, the institution we all have DECIDED to be the world police? If the US stops vetoing everything and do everything their own way, we might actually have a world police people can agree with.
Tokyo fishmarket closed for foreigners - kazelee - 2008-12-18
Tobberoth Wrote:We'll never have a "world police" people can agree with. Opinions vary far too much.Ji_suss Wrote:Sorry to digress from the Tsukiji story. Just wanted you to know that you need not beat yourselves up for being the world police. I don't see anyone else stepping up to the plate. China? Russia? haHow about leaving it up to the UN, the institution we all have DECIDED to be the world police? If the US stops vetoing everything and do everything their own way, we might actually have a world police people can agree with.
Tokyo fishmarket closed for foreigners - dilandau23 - 2008-12-18
bodhisamaya Wrote:I was giving my personal experience in the military. Were you offended by my personal experience?Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't realize it was your personal experience. That's totally different then. Feel free to make all the blanket statements you want about people in the military since you have personal experience. :/
Tokyo fishmarket closed for foreigners - cellophane - 2008-12-18
dilandau23 Wrote:But he didn't make any blanket statements.bodhisamaya Wrote:I was giving my personal experience in the military. Were you offended by my personal experience?Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't realize it was your personal experience. That's totally different then. Feel free to make all the blanket statements you want about people in the military since you have personal experience. :/
Tokyo fishmarket closed for foreigners - dilandau23 - 2008-12-18
cellophane Wrote:But he didn't make any blanket statements.Very well then, I am just wrong.
Tokyo fishmarket closed for foreigners - Thora - 2008-12-18
bodhisamaya Wrote:I suspect his point was about making blanket statements, not the content of your personal experience. Many people consider generalizations about a group (military, immigrants, women, etc) to be sloppy thinking which has potential to cause offense and even harm (generalizations -> stereotypes -> discrimination). This came up as well in the recent thread about immigrants and language. I'm not answering for dilandau, just agreeing.dilandau23 Wrote:I am not a big fan of the military as an institution, but I find blanket statements about the people serving in the military bigoted and somewhat offensive.I was giving my personal experience in the military. Were you offended by my personal experience?
On a more personal level, we have members who are in the military. Such generalizations amount to a pretty nasty implied criticism. Somehow I don't think that's what you intended.
It's great that you had the wisdom at 18 to expand your horizons and avoid that "animal mentality". And now you study Tibetan Buddhism and are on your way to Japan. Quite a journey!
So about Japanese language learning...
btw - Tsukiji talked about closing to tourists years ago - an ongoing issue I suppose.[edit: written before seeing dilandau's reply]
Tokyo fishmarket closed for foreigners - dilandau23 - 2008-12-18
Thora Wrote:I suspect his point was about making blanket statements, not the content of your personal experience. Many people consider generalizations about a group (military, immigrants, women, etc) to be sloppy thinking which has potential to cause offense and even harm (generalizations -> stereotypes -> discrimination). This came up as well in the recent thread about immigrants and language. I'm not answering for dilandau, just agreeing.But you said what I lacked the patience to say. Thank you.
On a more personal level, we have members who are in the military. Such generalizations amount to a pretty nasty implied criticism. Somehow I don't think that's what you intended.
It's great that you had the wisdom at 18 to expand your horizons and avoid that "animal mentality". And now you study Tibetan Buddhism and are on your way to Japan. Quite a journey!
So about Japanese language learning...
[edit: written before seeing dilandau's reply]
Tokyo fishmarket closed for foreigners - kazelee - 2008-12-18
Note to self:
Blanketed statement = Generalization. Now I'm even less confused. WOot.
Tokyo fishmarket closed for foreigners - Thora - 2008-12-18
yeah, a bit pedantic ... but there seemed to be a disconnect...
Tokyo fishmarket closed for foreigners - Tobberoth - 2008-12-18
kazelee Wrote:I'd rather have a world police based on the UN where anyone who follow laws of common sense can have a voice than to let the US be a world police since only US citizens are allowed to vote there. Whenever the American people elect a shitty president, the rest of the world have to suffer THEIR opinions. Same isn't true for the UN where everyone is equally responsible (except for the veto countries, THAT is BS).Tobberoth Wrote:We'll never have a "world police" people can agree with. Opinions vary far too much.Ji_suss Wrote:Sorry to digress from the Tsukiji story. Just wanted you to know that you need not beat yourselves up for being the world police. I don't see anyone else stepping up to the plate. China? Russia? haHow about leaving it up to the UN, the institution we all have DECIDED to be the world police? If the US stops vetoing everything and do everything their own way, we might actually have a world police people can agree with.
Tokyo fishmarket closed for foreigners - kfmfe04 - 2008-12-18
Tobberoth Wrote:I'd rather have a world police based on the UN where anyone who follow laws of common sense can have a voice than to let the US be a world police since only US citizens are allowed to vote there. Whenever the American people elect a shitty president, the rest of the world have to suffer THEIR opinions. Same isn't true for the UN where everyone is equally responsible (except for the veto countries, THAT is BS).Doh! - I hope you are referring to the "outgoing" President...
...if you are, as a US citizen, I can't disagree with you there.
Tokyo fishmarket closed for foreigners - Tobberoth - 2008-12-18
kfmfe04 Wrote:I'm a Swede, I lova Obama XD. Universal healthcare ftw.Tobberoth Wrote:I'd rather have a world police based on the UN where anyone who follow laws of common sense can have a voice than to let the US be a world police since only US citizens are allowed to vote there. Whenever the American people elect a shitty president, the rest of the world have to suffer THEIR opinions. Same isn't true for the UN where everyone is equally responsible (except for the veto countries, THAT is BS).Doh! - I hope you are referring to the "outgoing" President...
...if you are, as a US citizen, I can't disagree with you there.
I do indeed refer to Bush in the above post.
Tokyo fishmarket closed for foreigners - plumage - 2008-12-18
Tobberoth Wrote:(The army just happens to have a higher ratio of sick people).Than...? And you know this because...?
Re: the original story it's nice to see it's the French, not in particular, just not Americans. Americans get lots of flack for being bad tourists (possibly because there are simply so many of us touring, likely because people like seeing in us what they refuse to see in themselves), but I've often noted when traveling that Europeans, and French in particular, can be every bit as obnoxious if not moreso.
In any case, it's sad that they're closing the market temporarily. We really enjoyed our visit there. I take it the management will use something akin to our "reserve the right to refuse service to anyone" concept to decide who foreigners are. Oh well.
Tokyo fishmarket closed for foreigners - plumage - 2008-12-18
The U.N. is a joke. Dictatorships getting veto power over democracies.