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+--- Thread: in japan (/thread-2249.html)
in japan - nest0r - 2008-12-14
So how many folks here are living in Japan, anyways? A really basic question, but something I've always been curious about on this board. I've also read a lot here and elsewhere that not a lot of 'expatriates' and whathaveyou in Japan speak Japanese, or if they do, they don't read and/or write well. Is that true in your experience? Just curious, reply if you're bored. ^_^
in japan - Tobberoth - 2008-12-14
I used to live in Japan, but since I studied Japanese there, I don't think your question about expatriates is something relevant to me since my whole point for being there was to learn Japanese
From my experience though, white foreigners in Japan tend to be really bad at Japanese unless they actively study it there. JET teachers etc.
in japan - ファブリス - 2008-12-14
Actually Japan is second biggest source of visitors after US, so there are many members who are from japan.
in japan - spoonsman - 2008-12-14
Tobberoth Wrote:From my experience though, white foreigners in Japan tend to be really bad at Japanese unless they actively study it there. JET teachers etc.Unless they came here specifically to study the language, many of them will be bad. For example, off the top of my head I know a girl who's been here for around eight months and can barely read kana (if at all), though there are much more pronounced cases that I've come across.
Realize that coming to Japan to learn the language simply isn't many of these people's objective or reason for coming here.
And yes, I live in Fukushima, Japan.
in japan - Tobberoth - 2008-12-14
spoonsman Wrote:Realize that coming to Japan to learn the language simply isn't many of these people's objective or reason for coming here.I never said it was. One could however find it a bit odd how a person can plan to live in a country for a long time without considering learning at least the basics of the language.
in japan - mentat_kgs - 2008-12-14
Meh, I can't understand these people. Even if japanese was a dead language I'd be interested.
in japan - bodhisamaya - 2008-12-14
I lived in Japan last year and will return in a couple years once my Japanese is good enough to get a job doing something other than teaching English. I think next time Nagano or up to Hokkaido as the summers in the Kansai area were unbearable.
In my opinion it is disrespectful to live in someone else's country and not attempt to learn the language. I feel that way about immigrants living in America (legal or otherwise) and also about Americans living abroad. A guest should not make his/her host bend over backwards to accommodate.
in japan - samesong - 2008-12-14
I live in Nagano.
Quote:I've also read a lot here and elsewhere that not a lot of 'expatriates' and whathaveyou in Japan speak Japanese, or if they do, they don't read and/or write well.It's nothing but a stereotype. Like many stereotypes, there are cases where this is true, but you can't say this about everybody here. I know a few people who speak like Dave Spector who've only been here for a few years, and others who can't produce basic sentences outside of greetings.
But yes, just being in Japan won't grant you magical Japanese abilities. You have to break out of the "gaijin bubble" and make an effort.
in japan - Nukemarine - 2008-12-14
Ah, Dave Spector. Got in the market when fluent foreigners were a rarer commodity. I'm guessing now his talent is that he was a talent (or whatever logic is used to determine why a person should be on TV in Japan).
Hopefully if I show up on Japanese TV, it's not in slow motion accompanied by sinister music (so far, so good).
in japan - Dragg - 2008-12-14
bodhisamaya Wrote:I lived in Japan last year and will return in a couple years once my Japanese is good enough to get a job doing something other than teaching English. I think next time Nagano or up to Hokkaido as the summers in the Kansai area were unbearable.Isn't it more disrespectful to impose a language on others just because it makes your life a little easier/less annoying? A lot of modern languages exist in given areas only because of imperial conquest anyway. Under your logic, why should I have to listen to recorded messages in English instead of JUST the Native Miwokan here in Northern California? And why should the people of Hokkaidou have to listen to Japanese instead of JUST the Ainu language?
In my opinion it is disrespectful to live in someone else's country and not attempt to learn the language. I feel that way about immigrants living in America (legal or otherwise) and also about Americans living abroad. A guest should not make his/her host bend over backwards to accommodate. Why do I have to listen to recorded messages in Spanish when I don't live in Mexico?
People should just speak whatever language they want, and if it makes their life any harder by not learning the mainstream tongue, they will be the ones that have to deal with the bulk of the hardships, so please let them be.
in japan - phauna - 2008-12-14
I left Japan yesterday.
in japan - bodhisamaya - 2008-12-14
If we get into who conquered who over history that could get very confusing. How large of a group do we discuss beyond the original small native tribe that occupied a piece of land? What tribe was there before they were conquered and wiped out of existence?
A primary language connects a nation and makes for more effective communication. I have no problem with people speaking what ever language they want when with others of the same nationality. I even wish the American government would leave illegal immigrants alone and let them work in peace, but effort should be given to be a part of the greater community and learn the language spoken by the majority.
Those living in Japan as well should make attemps to engage in the language of the country they wish to reside in, Japanese.
in japan - Dragg - 2008-12-14
@bodhisamaya
As if the idea of what constitutes a nation is any less confusing. I find your claims especially ironic given that you have expressed your strong desire to preserve the Tibetan language. Do you think that all Tibetans should speak Chinese now since they are officially Chinese in terms of the force that tells them they are?
In addition, how do you feel about English being spoken in Hawaii given that the first European never even set foot there until 1778. Furthermore, the U.S. has only recently officially apologized to Hawaii in the 1990's for overthrowing the pre-existing Hawaiian Kingdom in 1887. (My grandfather was even born around the same time in case you don't realize how that is fairly recent history.)
Furthermore, at what point should all Americans be forced to learn Spanish since it is almost inevitably to be spoken by a larger majority at some point within the next few generations??
in japan - bodhisamaya - 2008-12-14
The Tibetans in China are learning Chinese as they should as long as they are part of China and part of that community. I find the Tibetan culture to be the most fascinating culture in the world. It no longer exists in Tibet except among wandering tribes. It is being preserved in the refugee settlements in India and that is where I help.
Before the people who now call themselves Hawaiian arrived, there were a people living in the island chain already. Those "natives" were subjugated, and there are very few traces that they ever existed at all now. They are part of the Menehune legends now. Each island was independent until Kamehameha overthrew the kings of the other islands through warfare. Prior to that, individual sections of each island had wars amongst themselves for power. Like every other section of the globe, people in Hawaii have been defeated with violence and replaced over and over again.
If Spanish one day becomes the official language of America, then I will start studying Spanish immediately. Until then, we should all learn English for the sake of mutual understanding.
in japan - Dragg - 2008-12-14
@bodhisamaya
Spanish is almost certainly to be an official language of the U.S. someday if the population trends continue. My educated guess would be around 2050 to 2060, although it will be spoken approximately as much as English around 2042. I'm thankful for the recorded messages and signs in Spanish because they make for good practice. I'd rather learn Spanish slowly and gradually assimilate into what will become the language of the future America rather than have to learn it all at once when the Spanish-speaking population finally reaches majority. Can a language really be said to be much less influential when the percentage of speakers is 35 to 45 percent of a country's population?
Would it annoy you to hear recorded messages in French if you lived in Canada? It is also considered an official language of Canada although it is only the mother tongue of 22 percent of Canadians. Why should a French Canadian learn English if he doesn't feel the need to? I still can't see the disrepect. Mutual understanding is all well and good, but I don't see the huge problem with issuing statements and recordings in multiple languages in cases where it is practical to do so.
Btw, in most areas of California, learning Spanish will often help you to get jobs even today. The Spanish-speaking population will reach majority even sooner in our state than the nation at large. California is about the same size of many nations, like Japan for example which just goes further to prove the point that nations are hard to define. Can a few lines on a map really always represent a community's connection to each other and invidual needs and concerns of the citizens there? Just another reason to learn Spanish sooner than later.
in japan - mentat_kgs - 2008-12-14
You are obviously from very different regions of the states. Probably the amount of Spanish speakers in Haway is not as big as it is in California.
And now, to heaten up the discussion: What about the children?
in japan - Dragg - 2008-12-14
Mentat, good point. Undoubtedly, Spanish will be less useful for a Hawaiian than for me. However, Bodhisamaya is sticking up for the idea that Tibetans should be speaking Chinese even though I doubt Mandarin has ever taken a very sizeable hold on the Tibetan population. (Even if China has done some studies or polls on the subject, there is no reason to trust them given their history of censorship and vested interest in making Tibet appear "more Chinese.") There are still an estimated several million speakers of the Tibetan language within Chinese-controlled Tibet, whereas it is only spoken by about 150,000 exiled Tibetans.
As far as the sake of the children, all the more reason exists why certain regions of the U.S. need to push Spanish education. In order to compete in the future job markets, young kids will benefit greatly from at least some exposure to Spanish. In some ways, this is already being done through popular children's television programming like "Dora the Explorer" and "Handy Manny" which star bilingual cartoon characters.
in japan - esgrove - 2008-12-15
I live in Kaizu city, Gifu prefecture. I'm about an hour away from Nagoya. I've lived here for about 2 years.
My Japanese is not nearly as good as I would prefer (I just took the ２級). I attribute this mostly to my persistent "foreign bubble" (teaching English, American girlfriend, English internet, English TV).
I feel that it is not the duty of a foreigner living in Japan to learn Japanese, especially if they don't care about the language and will only be here for a limited time anyway. But those who are studying it at all should readjust their goals to a loftier target and re-evaluate their methods if their results are slow.
I've met a lot of foreigners here, and most of them study Japanese but are not very good at it. The root problem seems to be kanji. Without a thorough knowledge of basic kanji you will never be able to move into genuine texts and away from stilted hand-holding textbooks. My advice to friends who have low-level Japanese is always to get RtK. This advice is almost always ignored, while my mediocre "talent" at japanese is praised as admirable.
in japan - shneen - 2008-12-15
I'm in Eastern Yamanashi. Coming up on 2 years in Japan this March.... I passed 2級 last year.. and failed miserably at 1級 this year. I too have a nice English bubble, or I'd probably be better. But I find that occasionally I need the English bubble to keep myself grounded
I don't know that you can point the blame at any one thing when it comes to foreigners in Japan not being able to speak Japanese. A lot of the people I know could care less about learning the language... they came to take a year or two off from 'the real world' and learn just enough so that they can maybe order a beer and talk about their hobbies. But beyond that, they don't really care.
That or they find someone who can translate for them all the time... eliminating the need.
in japan - bodhisamaya - 2008-12-15
Dragg Wrote:Spanish is almost certainly to be an official language of the U.S. someday if the population trends continue. My educated guess would be around 2050 to 2060, although it will be spoken approximately as much as English around 2042. .It is really tough to know what will happen with a language 30-40 years from now. The current trend with Spanish speaking people will only continue if the American enonomy recovers. All empires end and it is posible America is in it's last few gasps. If so, and Mexico's economy improves, Spanish usage may have maxed out from immigration going into a sharp decline. The Chinese factor must be considered also. China owns most of America's debt. It is the fastest growing economy in the world and shows little sign of slowing down. Will Chinese be more important than Spanish in ten years? Maybe Brazilian Portuguese as they are energy independant and growing amoung the world's fastest as well.
There are only 2 million Tibetans left out of the 8 million prior to Mao's invasion. One million unarmed monks and nuns were murdered alone in the initial years. The Tibetan people are very realistic in their thinking. They have taken to learning Chinese while continuing to speak Tibetan at home.
in japan - kazelee - 2008-12-15
Dragg Wrote:@bodhisamayaI think you're missing what this guys saying. He not saying that the people's language should be dissolved. He's saying they should take a little effort to learn a bit of the majority language. They can go home talk however. It would be absurd of me to expect people to speak Patois to me in a America. And if Spanish does become the majority language it would be absurd of Americans to expect to not have to learn it.
As if the idea of what constitutes a nation is any less confusing. I find your claims especially ironic given that you have expressed your strong desire to preserve the Tibetan language. Do you think that all Tibetans should speak Chinese now since they are officially Chinese in terms of the force that tells them they are?
in japan - activeaero - 2008-12-15
I don't see what conquest and majority language has to do with foreigners. We are talking about people who under their own free will have made a choice to move to Japan only to get here to not even remotely attempt to learn the key tool for social interaction and understanding. It just doesn't make much sense to me and to be stereotypical for a second I would think such a person most likely came to the country for very superficial reasons. That is just my opinion at least.
in japan - Dragg - 2008-12-15
@kaze
I get the point just fine. Bodhisamaya said that it was disrespectful to go to a country and not make an attempt to learn the majority language. And the specific example of Spanish recordings was used as a complaint.
I think the modern US is great in the sense that you can do whatever you want when you come to live here. There is absolutely nothing innately disrespectful IMO about moving into an ethnic enclave in L.A. or San Francisco and never learning the language called English.
As far as Japan, there have actually been many discussions about how some native Japanese get bothered if a foreigner knows their language too well. I've hear that in some big cities, many Japanese would rather talk to a foreigner in English anyway if not just for practice.
I have a Taiwanese friend who works here in the US and she brought her retired parents to come live here with her. They never bothered to learn English and I don't really see the big issue with it. They certainly mean no disrespect.
You can contribute to the culture and economy of the US without knowing a lick of English. Chinatown in San Francisco is one of the coolest places in America and plenty of people don't speak English well or at all.
in japan - Evil_Dragon - 2008-12-15
Living in Kawasaki until July 09. And although I visit language courses at university it never stops to amaze me, how horrible some students speak Japanese - especially the pronounciation.
Other than that it's pretty nice.
in japan - theasianpleaser - 2008-12-15
I live in Kobe and have only met a few foreigners who can communicate in Japanese. I mean a conversation about a real topic, not playing charades to figure out what they want to order, etc