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+--- Thread: 尺 A better primitive? (/thread-213.html)
尺 A better primitive? - Hyland1 - 2006-10-10
Shaku (尺） may not be the most difficult primitive and Heisigs "Shakuhachi" idea may be enough for most. However, I see a mouth above two legs (I know, I know, that's close to 只, but stick with me) and then I think shakuhachi, Japanese slang for fellatio, and B.J. just seems like a better primitive. Very easy to remember, very graphic, very good for sticking in your mind. Normally I would just post the stories I have in mind, but I wasn't sure about posting stories about B.J.s, I didnt want to offend anyone. What are your thoughts about the primitive itself? About posting? Should I post them on this thread first?
Thanks in advance-
Hyland
尺 A better primitive? - laxxy - 2006-10-10
Hyland1 Wrote:Shaku (尺） may not be the most difficult primitive and Heisigs "Shakuhachi" idea may be enough for most. However, I see a mouth above two legs (I know, I know, that's close to 只, but stick with me) and then I think shakuhachi, Japanese slang for fellatio, and B.J. just seems like a better primitive. Very easy to remember, very graphic, very good for sticking in your mind. Normally I would just post the stories I have in mind, but I wasn't sure about posting stories about B.J.s, I didnt want to offend anyone. What are your thoughts about the primitive itself? About posting? Should I post them on this thread first?I think this belongs to the stories about that primitive, not to the forums, people introduce their versions of the keywords quite often in their stories.
Thanks in advance-
Hyland
尺 A better primitive? - ファブリス - 2006-10-11
As laxxy points out, you can introduce your alternative primitives in the same story that uses them, usually the first story where the primitive appears.
That said, please do not share stories with sexual content (you can save them but keep them private) as the website is accessible to people from all corners the world, with no age restrictions.
Also keep in mind that while stories with sexual content or violence or other emotionally loaded material can work well on the short term, they are not very creative, and I think you'll find that they won't help you on the long run. If I remember well, James Heisig also addresses this point somewhere in RTK1.
尺 A better primitive? - leosmith - 2006-10-11
ファブリス Wrote:Also keep in mind that while stories with sexual content or violence or other emotionally loaded material can work well on the short term, they are not very creative, and I think you'll find that they won't help you on the long run. If I remember well, James Heisig also addresses this point somewhere in RTK1.I respectfully disagree. Lek, my imaginary Thai girlfriend, is the star of many of my stories. She is "person", or "Mr. T". I remember those stories very, very well.
尺 A better primitive? - laxxy - 2006-10-11
ファブリス Wrote:As laxxy points out, you can introduce your alternative primitives in the same story that uses them, usually the first story where the primitive appears.I absolutely disagree. When I can think of a way to put sex or violence into my stories in a reasonable way, I would normally do so, and I appreciate good stories that other ppl make. These things do help me remember stories a great deal.
That said, please do not share stories with sexual content (you can save them but keep them private) as the website is accessible to people from all corners the world, with no age restrictions.
Also keep in mind that while stories with sexual content or violence or other emotionally loaded material can work well on the short term, they are not very creative, and I think you'll find that they won't help you on the long run. If I remember well, James Heisig also addresses this point somewhere in RTK1.
Being child-friendly is another matter, and I am not sure it is really achievable on this kind of a site with user-submitted content.
尺 A better primitive? - synewave - 2006-10-11
Firstly I just want to make clear that this is [kana]FUABURISU[/kana]'s site so I will accept his decisions that have to do with 'rules' of use. It might be a good idea to make a sticky or put something on the HOME page if there are certain story topics that you feel are unacceptable.
Having said that,
ファブリス Wrote:please do not share stories with sexual content (you can save them but keep them private) as the website is accessible to people from all corners the world, with no age restrictions.What I see as a potential problem with this is that there are so many other story types that could also be seen to be offensive. Without giving examples, I have come across (no pun intended) stories relating to politics, religion, gender and race that could be argued are inappropriate (i.e. someone somewhere could find them offensive). So should the line just be drawn under "sex" stories?
Just to labour the point, I use an 'alien face hugger' as my primative for mysterious, perhaps this is inappropriate coz someone might find it scary. When I was younger, I was genuinely scared of them!
ファブリス Wrote:Also keep in mind that while stories with sexual content or violence or other emotionally loaded material can work well on the short term, they are not very creative, and I think you'll find that they won't help you on the long run. If I remember well, James Heisig also addresses this point somewhere in RTK1.Not so sure about this, while Heisig doesn't go into detail regarding sexual images, without saying explicitly, he does point you in that direction on various occassions. I certainly got that impression from see.
尺 A better primitive? - Hyland1 - 2006-10-11
Well, like I said in my original message I posted here first so as to not offend anyone. By posting here anyone (as you all have done) can put offer their two cents. Having read Fabrice's statement I won't be offering up these stories for public use. Thanks for your quick reply Fabrice, I appreciate it.
That said, I think you are way off on your statements regarding sexual stories. And indeed Heisig used them indirectly as well (remember seduce? Heisig refers to fellatio himself, so actually there is nothing posted here that isnt in the book in one form or another). You also stated that sexual stories aren't creative. Wouldn't that completely depend upon the story in question? Of course, if you tried to rely just on the shock value of a sexual image, that would be easily forgettable. However if you created an interesting story that INCLUDED sex or violence, it would be that much better. We are instinctively sexual creatures, we have to be, and inclusion of sex is usually increases peoples level of interest. The fact that sex sells beer, a drug that makes you fat and stupid and LOWERS your levels of sexual arousal, should prove that beyond a shadow of a doubt.
Indeed the original meanings of the kanji themselves are blatantly sexual. 士 is a pictograph of an erect penis, 壮 is that same penis lying in a bed, suggesting the fertile qualities of a large phallus in bed, 壁 the upper part of this represents anal sex, 宴 shows a prostitute in a building and on and on and on.
Please, don't take any of this as an argument to have sexual stories on this site. Indeed I completely understand your position to not allow such posts on the site(though I agree with synewave about having a sticky note somewhere, as there are already some sexual stories floating around). That is why I posted here first. (did I already say that? sorry..) Rather I thought your blanket dismissal of sexual stories to be very surprising and wanted to discuss that (not flame, I promise) because I find it interesting.
Best to everybody- Hyland1
尺 A better primitive? - dilandau23 - 2006-10-11
This was basically the same issue I was bringing up in the thread Rating System for suggestions / hide ones which you don't want to see. I don't think the site needs to be monitored in the context of censorship. That would turn it into a nightmare for anyone trying to administrate it. Not to mention that some people may actually benefit from these graphic stories. I think it is the burden of the readers (and their parents if they are "too young") to decide what is offensive and to avoid it. I think that ファブリス's idea to just start the stories collapsed rather than expanded is a fine method to accomplish this goal. That being said, if you will look at the frames where Heisig guides you to a story with sexual or graphic connotation, you will see that he always does so creatively rather than explicitly (at least as far as I have gotten in the book). For instance when he introduces the "crotch" primitive (frame 696) he just uses the words "or whatever" to make the suggestion, and quite effectively, for me at least. If one were to utilize a similar method of clever suggestion in a story I could see myself finding it very useful. Its the outright crude (to me) stories that make me role my eyes and long for a blacklist. So I think that your primitive idea would be fine and if you can recreate Heisig's method of vague, clever suggestion then more power to you.
尺 A better primitive? - nyquil - 2006-10-11
Just to support [kana]FABURISU[/kana]'s position, there is a difference between sexual content and potentially offensive content, so I think the line can be drawn there. In many countries a site cannot legally include sexual content without warnings and without the user stating that he is of legal age to view this content. Offensive content does not have the same legal status in most countries, although some forms of speech may be restricted, for example speech which may incite racial hatred in France. I find it very reasonable to ask people not to share stories with sexual overtones but too allow other possibly offensive content. Everyone should also judge whether a story is fit for public viewing or not, but in my opinion site censorship/administration woudl be difficult, both on practical ([kana]FABURISU[/kana]'s time) and ethical (who defines "offensive") grounds.
尺 A better primitive? - synewave - 2006-10-12
I don't think any of us disagree that 'what [kana]FUABURISU[/kana] says, goes'. So perhaps we should wait for him to clarify the position regarding the (self)censorship vibe.
However, I totally disagree with the arguement that sex is out but "other possibly offensive content" is in. I've got 尺 sorted so have no need to think of it as 'blow job'. But is posting stories of it as say, 'nigger' or 'dirty Jew' okay?
Personally, I'm against any form of censorship. Our own consciences I hope will help us make appropriate decisions.
I think we are pretty much in agreement on this point,
nyquil Wrote:Everyone should also judge whether a story is fit for public viewing or not
尺 A better primitive? - nyquil - 2006-10-12
synewave Wrote:However, I totally disagree with the arguement that sex is out but "other possibly offensive content" is in. I've got ? sorted so have no need to think of it as 'blow job'. But is posting stories of it as say, 'nigger' or 'dirty Jew' okay?If you are asking me if I, as a user, would accept to see such stories posted, I would have to say yes, although I would prefer the authors to keep them private. Were I the site administrator, I would not monitor every story posted, but probably only react on complaints by users. I would then censor or not depending on my own purely subjective criteria, in this case I would not allow your examples.
In my previous post, I just meant to stress the difference between what seems to me to be a legally necessary censorship (sexual content) and what has to be decided by the administrator/owner of the site. I agree with you that ultimately [kana]FABURISU[/kana] will decide.
I am actually pretty confident that there will not be problems with this as people will "make appropriate decisions."
尺 A better primitive? - synewave - 2006-10-12
nyquil Wrote:I am actually pretty confident that there will not be problems with this as people will "make appropriate decisions."I agree.
That's enough hypotheticals for one day...time I got back to actually studying as opposed to talking about studying!
Cheers,
尺 A better primitive? - ファブリス - 2006-10-15
Quote:I don't think any of us disagree that 'what フアブリス says, goes'. So perhaps we should wait for him to clarify the position regarding the (self)censorship vibe.I was a little surprised by the quick responses but discussion is always good and it's very interesting to see different point of views.
Also this made me realise that as the author of the website, my personal opinions may be regarded as "rules" or expectations I have of members within the use of the website.
The simple answer is : if it's not stated explictly in the Study area (on the website, not on the forum), then you are free to post stories with sexual content or other material that may not be suitable or acceptable for everyone, and even publicly share them.
That said, I expect all members to be their own judge and to be responsible about what they post, and to consider whether each story they decide to share publicly will be of use or not to the community.
I don't think any censorship or administration is required, but I have to think ahead. I am more concerned about having quality stories that help everyone rather than the legalese. Legal-wise I don't think there is any issue at the moment.
My goal is to encourage and support users in sharing quality stories. I have to try to do that in the most transparent way possible. Two examples are the silent formatting of stories, and the "share this story" being UNchecked by default.
Quote:Normally I would just post the stories I have in mind, but I wasn't sure about posting stories about B.J.s, I didnt want to offend anyone. What are your thoughts about the primitive itself? About posting?You can but if you can use clever suggestion or avoid vulgar or slang terms, then the more power to you. I am of the same opinion that dilandau on that topic.
Regarding slang or vulgar terms : I think that it will automatically generate other associations for readers, associations that the reader may not want and that may not be helpful for learning. Search for "fellatio" and then for "blowjob" in Google, two things that are technically the same, however you get quite different results.
I think it's more the way you write about something that makes a difference into the reader's mind. And regarding suggestion Heisig did a good job on that, suggestion will give more space for interpretation and will make the story more appealing and flexible for other learners.
尺 A better primitive? - Raichu - 2006-11-25
I've started posting stories like that because I've seen others do it and they can be very effective. Having read this thread though I'm beginning to have reservations because, like ファブちゃん said, many people who read them may be offended. I for one wouldn't go to a site where people swore frequently.
Perhaps I'll modify my stories and make them less obvious. I did that with some of my stories with political references to our present prime minister (the children overboard affair, for instance), and they still read well.
ファブリス Wrote:...while stories with sexual content or violence or other emotionally loaded material can work well on the short term, they are not very creative, and I think you'll find that they won't help you on the long run.I have to disagree. We've found in my kanji group that stories like that are the most effective. If every story was forced into an R-rated mould, I doubt it would work then, but we 've found that judicious use of loaded/risque stories appears to work extremely well.
Back on topic, I find a lot of Heisig's keywords unhelpful because they are things I can't relate to. It seems Heisig has had a broader range of experience in his life than mine. Maybe he's even seen a shakuhachi played!
Anyway, I use "restricted" for 尺, including but not limited to "R-rated". For example, for "exhaust", think about how access to a resource would be restricted when only two drops of it were left. Or how you would have to be careful what words you use when you "translate" R-rated material.
尺 A better primitive? - laxxy - 2006-11-25
As I mentioned before, I almost always found your stories rather effective, and now I can't recall being turned off by anything particularly inappropriate there.
尺 A better primitive? - dihutenosa - 2007-09-08
here's a somewhat off-the-wall idea disguised as a feature request:
what if there were, in addition to a "share this" checkbox, a "may offend" checkbox? In other words, you could choose to share something, but if it has possibly offensive imagery, you could flag it?
Then, users could specify in their own preferences whether or not they want to see such material. That would leave it up to users as to their own level of prudishness.
I say this because for some of us, sex is absolutely not an offensive thing - it's merely a fact of life. For some of us, it seems that a story about fellatio (nevermind the slang term, it's all the same act) is far, far worse than bludgeoning a dog. But then that decision on what constitutes "offensive" starts to come down to cultural, religious, and political biases, which should probably have little to no place in a site dedicated to learning a bunch of scribbles.
So, if people think they might be offended if I specifically refer to Republicans in my "party" description (politics) or that they might not like my substitution for cocaine as "white" (drugs) or certain people's idea of what "virtuous" is (sex) or my story for "lean" (horrible, brain-burning imagery), that's fine. Let them (or their parents?) check that box at signup.
For those of us who feel that they might be helped by graphic, grisly, or sexual references (nods to Hyland1) - let us brave those risks.
No hard feelings either way - I just know that while some of the stories seemed over the top to me, some of the more crazy stories really solidified a few things for me, and others seem to feel the same way.
尺 A better primitive? - yawfosu88 - 2007-09-08
synewave Wrote:But is posting stories of it as say, 'nigger' or 'dirty Jew' okay?I sure am happy I haven't come across any stories like that on this site. I've got to admit to finding some stories with sexual content almost instantly and easily memorisable, such as someone's story for good luck as a samurai recieving a special kind of goodbye kiss for good luck. I tried to make my own story to erase this image from my head but the simplicity and starkness of it was just too powerful.
I try to limit making or using stories that have overly gruesome content especially. I probably take this more seriously than sexual stories as at least sexual stories can be light hearted in nature. But recently there was a thread where someone said they used a open heart with blood spurting out of someone's chest to remember the primitive for invariably. I definately would not want to think of that whenever I saw a kanji with that primitive. So my problem is more when a particular 'disgusting' image is too memorable and I can't get it out of my head. Some people might say to that 'What's the problem, remembering it is the most important thing'. However, if my head is to be filled with about 2000 memorable images, I would rather my head be filled with mostly positive, unperverted images than the opposite.
So really, my problem is if a gruesome or perverse story is too good in terms of being easy to remember and it overpowers my ability to use a different image. Anyone agree?
尺 A better primitive? - Megaqwerty - 2007-09-08
dihutenosa Wrote:what if there were, in addition to a "share this" checkbox, a "may offend" checkbox? In other words, you could choose to share something, but if it has possibly offensive imagery, you could flag it?Yes! It solves any administrative problems: people tag content as offensive and people decide if they want to see offensive content. That way, these stories are still accessible, but they're restricted so that if you don't want to see them, you don't have to.
尺 A better primitive? - wrightak - 2008-01-03
Megaqwerty Wrote:I agree, I think it's a good idea. Either that or an option not to display reported stories, or to display them at the bottom.dihutenosa Wrote:what if there were, in addition to a "share this" checkbox, a "may offend" checkbox? In other words, you could choose to share something, but if it has possibly offensive imagery, you could flag it?Yes! It solves any administrative problems: people tag content as offensive and people decide if they want to see offensive content. That way, these stories are still accessible, but they're restricted so that if you don't want to see them, you don't have to.
尺 A better primitive? - Transtic - 2008-01-03
I think we have to tell apart "reported" from "perverted" (or whatever word you want to use) as, at least I, tend to see the "report" option as a chance to call attention over stories without the adequate primitives or that use a wrong meaning of the kanji or just don't work well as a mnemonic aid for any other reason.
尺 A better primitive? - cangy - 2008-01-19
Transtic Wrote:I think we have to tell apart "reported" from "perverted" (or whatever word you want to use) as, at least I, tend to see the "report" option as a chance to call attention over stories without the adequate primitives or that use a wrong meaning of the kanji or just don't work well as a mnemonic aid for any other reason.yeah, it has its original use, reporting heisig stories, then the additional use of marking the story as something you might need to watch out for, wrong primitives, wrong meanings, offensive content... how about a drop list of check boxes to specify the issues, maybe with room for a small optional comment (but you have to draw the line somewhere or you end up with slashdot/digg/reddit...)