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+--- Thread: は vs が - A fight to the death (/thread-2104.html)
は vs が - A fight to the death - samesong - 2008-11-13
Well they'll be fighting in my head until my death, anyway.
about 90% of the time I can use wa or ga correctly. The other 10 percent, I'm just throwing in what "feels" right, and a lot of times it's wrong. I would like to be certain I am using the correct particle from a grammatical standpoint.
So my question: Are there any good resources that thoroughly, completely explain the differences between the two? (Japanese or English is okay). Even if it reads like something made for linguists, that's also dandy.
Unless you can fully explain how to use wa and ga in each and every situation, an explanation in this thread is not needed =).
Thanks!
は vs が - A fight to the death - bodhisamaya - 2008-11-13
All About Particles: A Handbook of Japanese Function Words by Naoko Chino
Not thorough but has helped me alot
http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/4770027818/ref=dp_olp_used?ie=UTF8&condition=used
は vs が - A fight to the death - kazelee - 2008-11-13
Even Japanese don't fully understand the subtleties. Therefore, abandon all hope...
I kid, of course.
は vs が - A fight to the death - Zarxrax - 2008-11-13
The book Making Sense of Japanese has a pretty good explanation. It actually dedicates an entire chapter with something like 20 pages to it. It doesn't really get down into the nuts and bolts of it, but more or less gives a broad explanation that *seems* to make some sense, at least to me.
は vs が - A fight to the death - samesong - 2008-11-13
After some googling I came across this site (it's in Japanese, though)
http://www.pantomime.org/nihongo-tusin/note.html
は vs が - A fight to the death - thermal - 2008-11-13
I second Making Sense of Japanese. I doesn't include every usage, but it does go through the fundamental difference between them, something which I think is sorely lacking from many textbooks such as Minna no nihongo.
は vs が - A fight to the death - snallygaster - 2008-11-14
I remember Unicom's 3級 JLPT grammar book had a pretty clear explanation, if you happen to be studying for the ３級.
I second the "Making sense of Japanese" recommendation -- if you've read some other explanations of は・が, it might not seem to be saying anything new, but it goes on at such length that the essential "feel" of は vs が will be burned into your head.
The Japanese intoduction goes all brokeback over the は・が explanation, too. For most Japanese, being able to articulate even the most general differences between particles that all students of Japanese learn in the first few weeks of Japanese 101, is like some kind of magic trick.
は vs が - A fight to the death - kazelee - 2008-11-14
thermal Wrote:I second Making Sense of Japanese. I doesn't include every usage, but it does go through the fundamental difference between them, something which I think is sorely lacking from many textbooks such as Minna no nihongo.Making Sense of Japanese: What the Textbooks Don't Tell You
or
Making Sense of Japanese Grammar
Which one?
は vs が - A fight to the death - mentat_kgs - 2008-11-14
Meh, you can just listen to tons of anime/dorama/whatever.
は vs が - A fight to the death - QuackingShoe - 2008-11-14
kazelee Wrote:Making Sense of Japanese: What the Textbooks Don't Tell YouMaking Sense of Japanese: What the Textbooks Don't Tell You by Jay Rubin, is what I believe they're talking about. I further the recommendation.
or
Making Sense of Japanese Grammar
Which one?
は vs が - A fight to the death - Shtephen - 2008-11-14
I don't know I bought the Making Sense of Japanese by Jay Rubin forever ago and read the は ＆ が chapter at least twice but his explanation just made me want to go to sleep. Just looking at my copy is making my eyes close. Of course that's just me I bought it cause everyone who reviewed it on amazon seemed to think it was such an awesome book but it didn't make Japanese make much more sense to me than anything else does.
は vs が - A fight to the death - strugglebunny - 2008-11-14
kazelee Wrote:Even Japanese don't fully understand the subtleties. Therefore, abandon all hope...Yeah, any Japanese I talk to seems to say they don't really know when to use one or the other. Most people are probably smart enough to figure out what you are trying to say. Although, I guess it never hurts to try and be more proficient than a native.
I kid, of course.
は vs が - A fight to the death - samesong - 2008-11-14
You will never be more proficient than a native Japanese speaker at differenciating between wa and ga. Explaining when to use which particle and knowing when to use which particle are two completely separate things.
You know how to use the / a, right? But could you explain the differences between both of them clearly and concisely?
は vs が - A fight to the death - Tobberoth - 2008-11-14
samesong Wrote:You know how to use the / a, right? But could you explain the differences between both of them clearly and concisely?Yes, easily. Then again, I'm not a native English speaker, so I've learned such things in school.
は and が are way more simple than people think. は is the topic marker, が is the subject marker. You really don't need to know much more than that, after that you simply need to know when Japanese people consider something a topic or a subject. Besides, exposure will teach you the smaller things, this one is a classic:
魚が食べている。
魚は食べている。
These sentences mean the same thing, but aren't the same. When you can tell the difference and understand it, you don't have to worry anymore, you know は from が as good as you ever will, you know the small neuances they bring.
は vs が - A fight to the death - playadom - 2008-11-14
samesong Wrote:But could you explain the differences between both of them clearly and concisely?To an extent.
I can imagine that it would be very hard for a non-native speaker to convey the subtle nuances possible with these two prepositions.
は vs が - A fight to the death - mentat_kgs - 2008-11-14
kazelee Wrote:Even Japanese don't fully understand the subtleties. Therefore, abandon all hope...That's true. They don't understand the grammar. Fortunaly grammar knowledge is not used while speaking, reading or listening.
I kid, of course.
は vs が - A fight to the death - yukamina - 2008-11-14
Tobberoth Wrote:魚が食べている。Is this the difference?
魚は食べている。
These sentences mean the same thing, but aren't the same. When you can tell the difference and understand it, you don't have to worry anymore, you know は from が as good as you ever will, you know the small neuances they bring.
魚が食べている。 The fish(and not anything else) is eating.
魚は食べている。 The fish is eating.
は vs が - A fight to the death - mentat_kgs - 2008-11-14
You got が meaning, but the は has its nuance too.
The は means that you are comparing that fish to something else.
Also the sentences might mean that you are eating fish too.
は vs が - A fight to the death - samesong - 2008-11-14
Tobberoth Wrote:That's exactly my point. I would argue that the great majortiy of native English speakers couldn't write out when to use a / the in particular situations; there is no need for a native speaker to understand the rules, because we can produce the correct article based on what "sounds right".samesong Wrote:You know how to use the / a, right? But could you explain the differences between both of them clearly and concisely?Yes, easily. Then again, I'm not a native English speaker, so I've learned such things in school.
Just because a Japanese speaker doesn't know the nuances of when to use which doesn't mean they can't use them correctly (in fact, I would even argue that no matter how they use them, they are using them "correctly", because language is constantly changing, and it is whatever the native speakers desire it to be. But that's a whole other topic). The problem is, we aren't native speakers, so (again, in my opinion), without years of exposure to the language, non-native speakers will not be able to produce the correct particle 100% of the time without knowing the rules.
Here's an example when I confused myself (and the person I was talking to) with wa and ga:
彼はひろみがよく知らない女の子と仲良くなっても平気？
(I changed her name, BTW. Couldn't think of a more common name than ひろみ) I was having a conversation about her boyfriend, and I was trying to ask her "So you'd be fine with your boyfriend getting close with a girl that you don't know?"
Her response:
彼 は ？
彼 が ？
Ultimately I rewrote the question because I didn't know what the correct particle was. This is why I'd like a firmer understanding between the two particles.
は vs が - A fight to the death - Tobberoth - 2008-11-14
yukamina Wrote:Is this the difference?From my point of view, it's more like:
魚が食べている。 The fish(and not anything else) is eating.
魚は食べている。 The fish is eating.
魚が食べている。 - The fish is eating.
魚は食べている。 - Other creatures do other things or this thing, but as for this fish, it is eating.
は has a feeling of comparision which isn't present in が at all. But yes, your idea that が has a feeling of... exclusion is also true. が can single things out. As in この本の中で、この本が赤い. which would mean something like "Among these books, THIS book is red."
は vs が - A fight to the death - Tobberoth - 2008-11-14
mentat_kgs Wrote:You got が meaning, but the は has its nuance too.From what I know, 魚が食べている can not mean that you're eating the fish, the が forces 魚 to become a subject. You would have to use を.
The は means that you are comparing that fish to something else.
Also the sentences might mean that you are eating fish too.
は vs が - A fight to the death - PrettyKitty - 2008-11-14
That's a possibility... If 魚が食べている is in response to a question of "Who/what is eating?"
It all depends on what happen before to cause someone else to say 魚（が・は）食べている
It can also be an exclamation of surprise at the discovery of the fish eating. "Oh look! A/the fish is eating!"
It can also be said to bring up a new topic. Suddenly you want to talk about a fish. The difference in "A fish, which I am just now bring up for the first time, is eating" and "The fish, that we've already spoken about, is eating." Without any context, and just seeing the two sentences together, this is probably what the meaning would be interpreted as.
Under some circumstances 魚は食べている can mean "I am eating fish."
Under no circumstances will 魚が食べている mean "I am eating a fish."
Without context, it's really hard to give an exact definition to the sentences...
は vs が - A fight to the death - Mcjon01 - 2008-11-14
samesong Wrote:Would my explanation that "a/an" is used in the general case of a noun (i.e., to refer to a single instance of the concept of cat), and that "the" is used in the specific case (i.e., to refer to a specific, known cat) be deficient? Because it's all my native brain can come up with. I like to think that any deficiencies come from the fact that I'm not a grammarian, and thus am unfamiliar with how to formulate clear grammar rules, but then again, I have a huge ego.Tobberoth Wrote:That's exactly my point. I would argue that the great majortiy of native English speakers couldn't write out when to use a / the in particular situations; there is no need for a native speaker to understand the rules, because we can produce the correct article based on what "sounds right".samesong Wrote:You know how to use the / a, right? But could you explain the differences between both of them clearly and concisely?Yes, easily. Then again, I'm not a native English speaker, so I've learned such things in school.
は vs が - A fight to the death - playadom - 2008-11-14
I think we can can interpret は and が in the following way:
これは私のです - This is mine
これが私のです - This [particular one] is mine
が here is acting as an emphatic specifier[that's a really awkward term, but I can't think of anything good]
これはあなたのですか？
これがあなたのですか？
は is also used in negative sentences[correct me if I'm wrong, I'm not terribly sure of all this]
The following sentences are from a Japanese friend that I asked a while ago.
これはあなたのでありませんか？ Isn't this yours?
いいえ、これは私のでありません。 No, this is not mine.
これがあなたのですか？ Is this one yours?
いいえ、これは私のでありません。 No, this is not mine.
Anyone care to shed some light on these (random) sentences?
像を食べている魚は僕のアパートにいる
像を食べている魚が僕のアパートにいる
は vs が - A fight to the death - playadom - 2008-11-14
PrettyKitty Wrote:That's a possibility... If 魚が食べている is in response to a question of "Who/what is eating?"Sort of like how the sentence 私は学生です, something you'd see in every intro textbook, is actually only used in a response-to-a-question case.
It all depends on what happen before to cause someone else to say 魚（が・は）食べている
It can also be an exclamation of surprise at the discovery of the fish eating. "Oh look! A/the fish is eating!"
Quote:It can also be said to bring up a new topic. Suddenly you want to talk about a fish. The difference in "A fish, which I am just now bring up for the first time, is eating" and "The fish, that we've already spoken about, is eating." Without any context, and just seeing the two sentences together, this is probably what the meaning would be interpreted as.I like this explanation.
Quote:Under some circumstances 魚は食べている can mean "I am eating fish."魚は食べてる could be parsed literally as "As for fish, I am eating it." Not the way you'd normally say it though.
Under no circumstances will 魚が食べている mean "I am eating a fish."
Quote:Without context, it's really hard to give an exact definition to the sentences...I completely agree on the context issue.