+- kanji koohii FORUM (http://forum.koohii.com)
+-- Forum: Learning Japanese (http://forum.koohii.com/forum-4.html)
+--- Forum: General discussion (http://forum.koohii.com/forum-8.html)
+--- Thread: What makes AJATT work? (/thread-2069.html)
What makes AJATT work? - QuackingShoe - 2008-11-06
esgrove Wrote:I know a little Japanese girl who has watched Disney movies in English a bunch of times and has become adept at mimicking American accents. Her accent is practically flawless, except that all she can say in it is gibberish because she doesn't know any vocabulary.That is adorable.
What makes AJATT work? - alyks - 2008-11-07
Tokyostyle, you misunderstand me. It's a mindset difference. If you think "I have to memorize the language and memorize all the vocab and grammar points" you'll probably get nowhere. But if you go in with the mindset of "I'm going to do as much stuff as I can in Japanese and read thousands of pages of books I like and watch thousands of hours of Japanese movies/dramas I like" then you'll have a lot more fun and learn a lot because of it. In no way does this contradict the shortcuts you can take, such as using an SRS. In fact, using SRS is so effective when you go in with that mindset, because you get to the point you can't not find stuff to put into your SRS.
Specifically, I formulated those ideas based on reading a combination of:
Antimoon
AJATT
Stephen Krashen
Amorey Gethin
Feed me Japanese
I don't see how you can disagree with the rules I wrote. They're basically AJATT in a nutshell.
What makes AJATT work? - Cranks - 2011-02-04
Thoughts: What I think Khatz was doing with his reading and media early on.
You know AJATT for all it's fame as a method, doesn't really explain Khatz early experiences in enough depth in my opinion (do we have the right to ask him to share it anyway?), but from what I have read so far, I have come to some conclusions about Khatz's reading and listening experiences.
Firstly, my feeling on reading about his early experience working over Evangelion is that he went through that book in a very similar way to myself. He picked through the vocabulary looked up the grammar (and in his case SRSed the sentences, perhaps?) and reviewed the material over and over. Also, in my opinion, he did his rounds of the grammar books as well - regardless of his current opinion - and that had an affect on his understanding as well. Obviously, this would result in the ability to read to a reasonable level.
In addition, I remember him discussing how he went through media in the earlier days: listening to the same material over and over again, SRSing words and sentences and relistening again later.
All of this makes me think that he did a massive amount of repetition over a relatively small amount of media and really worked that media over. This for me confirms my own conclusions that working over media and repetitively reviewing it is quite powerful and that, within reason, we should doing a perhaps relatively large amount of review on materials we have covered in detail.
So to state my observation, Khatz was probably about half as motivated as he is or seems to be now at the time, but I still believe he put in some serious hours to get where he was prior to moving to Japan. I also believe that he did a lot of production in the form of writing notes at school in Japanese - I believe he would have begun non-copying type writing at some point - and discussions with native speakers (if not consistent enough to be considered more than his input), which clearly states to me that some output is necessary at an early stage. Also, the mystery of how good he was in spoken production at the time he interviewed in Japan is pretty much unprovable, as if any media existed, I doubt he would release it to the public.
I guess what I'm doing here is just out letting some of my feelings about his particular method, which I have and still in a way do follow to some extent (I think I am more leaning towards the 3monthstofluency.com approach at the moment.)
What makes AJATT work? - Kanjiiz - 2011-02-04
Virtual country of the desired language.
A program that studies your learning abilities and schedule the material to be studied in a way that optimizes the learning process. Though this might be boring and a person may depend on it too much.
Glasses that translates words heard by the user!
Just to mention some.
But I think that all what people need to learn languages is material to learn from, the rest depends on the person.
What makes AJATT work? - Javizy - 2011-02-04
tokyostyle Wrote:Care to point us to the research study that you used to decide this was simple and effective? One reasons people trust Hesig and AJATT is because the authors are handing out methods that worked for them to get a high degree of competency very very fast.Has anyone proven to be a competent speaker "very, very fast" using AJATT? I thought that was just the theory if you continue immersion. The majority of people seem to end up with a terrible lack of balance between receptive and productive skills. If we're talking about overall fluency, I'd hesitate to call AJATT a "proven method" any more than anything else.
When I'm all happily fluent and sound more like a Japanese drama and less like a textbook I'll beat everyone up with my personal theories too. Until then I'm cognizant enough to realize that I should be listening to those who have proven their methods.
What makes AJATT work? - Javizy - 2011-02-04
I didn't realise the thread had been bumped (who keeps doing that?). I don't really disagree with any of the methods, especially since different things work for different people. I was just interested in seeing some success stories of speakers, rather than people who can read, and presumably fully understand, "98%" of a novel after studying for just 2000-3000 hours. Wait, 18 months sounds a lot more impressive...
What makes AJATT work? - ta12121 - 2011-02-04
Javizy Wrote:I didn't realise the thread had been bumped (who keeps doing that?). I don't really disagree with any of the methods, especially since different things work for different people. I was just interested in seeing some success stories of speakers, rather than people who can read, and presumably fully understand, "98%" of a novel after studying for just 2000-3000 hours. Wait, 18 months sounds a lot more impressive...agreed!
What makes AJATT work? - nest0r - 2011-02-04
Wow so many old threads to randomly reactivate! Let's get started. I think I saw Thora asking some n00b questions back in 1997 that were never answered.
What makes AJATT work? - jcdietz03 - 2011-02-04
禁止じゃありませんよ。
What makes AJATT work? - nest0r - 2011-02-04
jcdietz03 Wrote:禁止じゃありませんよ。18 minutes, eh. Did you do AJATT? ^_^
What makes AJATT work? - jcdietz03 - 2011-02-04
それが必要ないよ！
返事すれば、日本語で下さい。
先は本当の間違いでしたか？
What makes AJATT work? - Irixmark - 2011-02-04
Raichu Wrote:I would suggest that the difficulties in learning a new language have a physiological basis. These "habits" are probably connections that have formed in your brain in childhood and have been reinforced to the point of permanence. When you are trying to learn a radically new language you are trying to forge new connections that in some cases conflict with the existing ones.Yes, but after learning one martial art it becomes much easier to learn "related" arts. Or from African dance to Capoeira, for that matter. So I don't think that L2s have to necessarily be impeded by L1.
The reason why a martial art (or other sport) takes years to learn is that you are doing just that: forging new pathways in your brain so you train yourself to respond in particular ways to particular stimuli.
Hmm, the quote is from something posted in 2008...
What makes AJATT work? - nest0r - 2011-02-04
jcdietz03 Wrote:それが必要ないよ！Took you over an hour to write that? Sheesh. And even then you had to edit it? Stop embarrassing yourself.
返事すれば、日本語で下さい。
先は本当の間違いでしたか？
What makes AJATT work? - jcdietz03 - 2011-02-04
^^
それも必要なかった。
What makes AJATT work? - mezbup - 2011-02-04
Javizy Wrote:I've reached a decent level of conversational fluency (not quite native level yet though of course) being able to actively participate in group discussions which switch topic rapidly as the conversation flows. I'm also read 2 novels so far aswell, so I have a very functional reading ability. I've been studying via AJATT + Anki for 2.5 years... and I think it's not possible to reach native level fluency in 18months (that's too high of a mark) but to reach the level I'm at in 18 months might have been possible for me if I had not have done RTK and just started vocab deck + grammar deck right from the very beginning. It's an extremely efficient method. University Japanese courses haven't got shit on it IMO. Not to say that they are no good or that they don't work, just that they are much slower and less efficient than AJATT + Anki method. Even then... 2.5 years at university wouldn't get you close to where I've gotten so far I don't think.tokyostyle Wrote:Care to point us to the research study that you used to decide this was simple and effective? One reasons people trust Hesig and AJATT is because the authors are handing out methods that worked for them to get a high degree of competency very very fast.Has anyone proven to be a competent speaker "very, very fast" using AJATT? I thought that was just the theory if you continue immersion. The majority of people seem to end up with a terrible lack of balance between receptive and productive skills. If we're talking about overall fluency, I'd hesitate to call AJATT a "proven method" any more than anything else.
When I'm all happily fluent and sound more like a Japanese drama and less like a textbook I'll beat everyone up with my personal theories too. Until then I'm cognizant enough to realize that I should be listening to those who have proven their methods.
What makes AJATT work? - Aijin - 2011-02-04
mezbup Wrote:Even then... 2.5 years at university wouldn't get you close to where I've gotten so far I don't think.The majority of the students in elementary Japanese classes are not that passionate about the language, nor willing/capable of investing a large amount of study to it. Most are majoring in completely unrelated subjects such as engineering, mathematics, and whatnot, and are only taking the course due to a combination of the necessity of fulfilling general breadth requirements, as well as having a casual interest in Japanese, usually due to anime, manga, video games, and pop culture. Teachers have to teach at a pace reflective of that reality. If they taught faster and more intensively then their students are all going to fail.
That's why there's a huge difference between the pace and intensity of elementary, intermediate, and advanced courses. Elementary courses weed out all the people without a strong desire to learn Japanese, and intermediate and advanced courses are usually filled with students majoring in either Japanese or a related field, and teachers can teach accordingly.
What makes AJATT work? - Cranks - 2011-02-05
Aijin Wrote:I did JP for 6 months during university. I agree totally. I had to do a language and I was silly enough to choose Japanese over German due to scheduling. I virtually slept through it - I don't even count it in my "time spent" learning as I seriously didn't get anything out of it.mezbup Wrote:Even then... 2.5 years at university wouldn't get you close to where I've gotten so far I don't think.The majority of the students in elementary Japanese classes are not that passionate about the language, nor willing/capable of investing a large amount of study to it. Most are majoring in completely unrelated subjects such as engineering, mathematics, and whatnot, and are only taking the course due to a combination of the necessity of fulfilling general breadth requirements, as well as having a casual interest in Japanese, usually due to anime, manga, video games, and pop culture. Teachers have to teach at a pace reflective of that reality. If they taught faster and more intensively then their students are all going to fail.
That's why there's a huge difference between the pace and intensity of elementary, intermediate, and advanced courses. Elementary courses weed out all the people without a strong desire to learn Japanese, and intermediate and advanced courses are usually filled with students majoring in either Japanese or a related field, and teachers can teach accordingly.
That said, after doing the rounds and stealing from home brewer's like AJATT, I have to say I have gotten more in the last 12 months than I ever got in Japanese class (I actually think classes in country are a good idea though as long as you do 90% of the work outside of class and use it as question time). An example would be: I just started reading Pirates of the Caribean in Japanese. I could understand about 60%+ of the first page and didn't need half the Kanji the furigana'ed. In university I struggled to figure out the stuff the textbook was trying to say and that was mostly hiragana!
What makes AJATT work? - zachandhobbes - 2011-02-06
AJATT works because it motivates you to keep going.
What makes AJATT work? - Womacks23 - 2011-02-06
Can someone explain in 5 bullet points or less what AJATT is?
What makes AJATT work? - ta12121 - 2011-02-06
mezbup Wrote:Cool, nice progress. I can agree with you on the vocab deck, it's enabled me to learn so much kanji/create better reading skills. I've been at it for 1.5 years now, so one year less then you are at now. How do I stand? In terms of reading/listening. I'm getting close to being "proficient". Why did I label this? Because, I feel in a few months, I will get pretty close to that. Not fluent just yet, but eventually I will gain that. As for the fluency debate, I believe if you put in the time, you can succeed. But it can aim from 2-5 years. Lately I've been thinking, 3-5 years is a good estimate to gain overall fluency in a language.Javizy Wrote:I've reached a decent level of conversational fluency (not quite native level yet though of course) being able to actively participate in group discussions which switch topic rapidly as the conversation flows. I'm also read 2 novels so far aswell, so I have a very functional reading ability. I've been studying via AJATT + Anki for 2.5 years... and I think it's not possible to reach native level fluency in 18months (that's too high of a mark) but to reach the level I'm at in 18 months might have been possible for me if I had not have done RTK and just started vocab deck + grammar deck right from the very beginning. It's an extremely efficient method. University Japanese courses haven't got shit on it IMO. Not to say that they are no good or that they don't work, just that they are much slower and less efficient than AJATT + Anki method. Even then... 2.5 years at university wouldn't get you close to where I've gotten so far I don't think.tokyostyle Wrote:Care to point us to the research study that you used to decide this was simple and effective? One reasons people trust Hesig and AJATT is because the authors are handing out methods that worked for them to get a high degree of competency very very fast.Has anyone proven to be a competent speaker "very, very fast" using AJATT? I thought that was just the theory if you continue immersion. The majority of people seem to end up with a terrible lack of balance between receptive and productive skills. If we're talking about overall fluency, I'd hesitate to call AJATT a "proven method" any more than anything else.
When I'm all happily fluent and sound more like a Japanese drama and less like a textbook I'll beat everyone up with my personal theories too. Until then I'm cognizant enough to realize that I should be listening to those who have proven their methods.
What makes AJATT work? - ta12121 - 2011-02-06
Womacks23 Wrote:Can someone explain in 5 bullet points or less what AJATT is?-Motivation
-Srs
-Immersing
-Japanese
-Learning
What makes AJATT work? - Asriel - 2011-02-06
--A buzzword that gives "Khatz" credit for coming up with all these supposedly awesome ideas that boil down to common sense that "immersing oneself in Japanese helps you learn it"
--Learning vocab through SRSing sentences
--Throwing out "stupid, boring textbooks" because "grammar doesn't exist" and learning from "real Japanese" because it's fun.
What makes AJATT work? - Myrddhin - 2011-02-07
After having read Khatz's latest post, "A Day In The Life of Khatzumoto (No, For Real)" http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blog/a-day-in-the-life-of-khatzumoto-no-for-real , I found one of his activities during his hardcore phase to be quite enlightening:
"Speak Japanese with Japanese friends and get roundly abused for the tiniest error — or even for speaking too slowly! Aaaaah…tough love.
* I taught my Japanese friends to be cruel by insisting they not let me get away with saying anything “un-Japanese”. It takes several repetitions of such a request until people know you’re not just feigning humility. But once they know…oh boy."
Apparently part of a typical day. It might go some way towards explaining his leet speaking skills.
What makes AJATT work? - Splatted - 2011-02-07
For some reason it made me really happy to know trhat Khatz had (has?) a scheduled frisbee time. =D
What makes AJATT work? - NinjaViking - 2011-02-07
It's simple, really. Khatz has created a method for really lazy bastards to learn Japanese by making it impossible to fail. If (almost)everything in your life can be turned japanese, chances are you'll pick up the language eventually.