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Racism in Tokyo - alantin - 2008-10-13
kazelee Wrote:....LOL! ^^
@_@
Wow...
I meant...
discuss...
the video....
kazelee Wrote:On the general subject of racism:That's a really good point!
It all depends on who you ask. I've known people personally, who others have said were racist. What I found was that the so called racist person just didn't like them on a personal level (not their entire race).
What that means is that, though racism exists, more often people's interaction with you are based on your interaction with them.
There are people who will make assumptions based on stereotypes or one or two past experiences, but these are probably not the type of people you want to interact with anyway.
This holds true for anywhere you go in the world. Hell, this hold true for walking down the block.
Racism in Tokyo - CaLeDee - 2008-10-13
I thought this was quite funny.
http://xorsyst.com/japan/man-skinny-dips-in-imperial-palace-moat/
I can't understand this guys mindset at all! I could never do such a thing :/
Racism in Tokyo - alantin - 2008-10-13
Yeah.. I bet that doesn't really help any suspicions people might have against foreigners..
Quote:this guy seriously had some issuesHave to agree with this!
Racism in Tokyo - kazelee - 2008-10-13
alantin Wrote:Yeah.. I bet that doesn't really help any suspicions people might haveLoL
Id run too if I were naked and they were pointing those things at me.
Were those nets? What'd they think he was, a hairless bear?
Racism in Tokyo - Tobberoth - 2008-10-13
CaLeDee Wrote:I thought this was quite funny.I. Hate.This.
http://xorsyst.com/japan/man-skinny-dips-in-imperial-palace-moat/
I can't understand this guys mindset at all! I could never do such a thing :/
During my whole year in Japan, I always tried to prove that white people can act Japanese, that we can shut up on a train, that we can refrain from shouting loadly in English, that we can respect their values and their history, that we can eat their food, that we can learn their language. Then you watch TV and see one white retard destroying it for the rest of us.
Now, this is special obviously, an insane man who really could have been of any race. Still, have you ever seen shows where Americans (or other europeans) go to report on how wierd Japan is etc? In Sweden we have several shows like this, for example:
* Show on martial arts where they often go to Japan to try their hand at Sumo, Karate etc.
* Travel shows where they simply report on various countries as resorts etc.
* We even have one show where the whole point is to copy the concept of a Japanese game show.
In ALL of these shows, Swedish actors etc who know nothing of Japan, go there and make complete asses out of themselves. I can't ***** stand it.
Racism in Tokyo - ファブリス - 2008-10-13
The word "racism" is loaded with emotions for most people so I'm not too surprised at the reactions. Nevertheless I'm sorry but I will close the topic if it goes too long. I'm pretty sure there's nothing really valuable that's going to come out of it.
I don't want to sound overly patronizing here... but I will say from my experience and countless moments of reflection... that if a person (let's say a Japanese person here) looks into your eyes and gives you a strange look, you can choose to see what you want in there. Most likely, you won't choose but simply out of habit, you will see what you expect to see in there, based on your current mood and mindset. It's so predictable it's both depressing and funny at the same time. The other person is just a mirror to your own self.
There is no anger out there in that pool, there is no racism on the skin of that guy, or in the grass around, or in the policemen's helmets. It's all inside of us. It's not childish or uneducated or even "new age" to think that the world is what we think it to be. That IS the reality. What we call the "world" is all that we project on what we see. If you want there to be rampant racism in Japan there will be, if you want to see just a dumb guy who need to let out some pressure, you can see that too. Recently again I heard a friend say something like "we are ants we can't do a thing about this" (peak oil, the economy , you name it). I don't believe in that, the world is the sum of all of us.
An other way to look at it is this: as long as foreigners in Japan continue to bring up the racism issue (or any foreigners anywhere else in the world), they just make sure that the issue in question sustains itself. This very topic helps the problem to persist. Like this day after day, moment after moment, thought after thought.. the problem just sustains itself. More YouTube videos, more blog posts, more TV reports, more heated debates.. more reactions, more anger, ... This is tiring, seriously. Thinking is good.. but I mean, in the end this is all about fear isn't it?
Racism in Tokyo - annabel398 - 2008-10-13
About showing Japanese that not all westerners are oafs/eradicating racism/making the world a better place, I like this quote:
"Whatever you do will be insignificant, but it is vitally important that you do it." --Gandhi
Racism in Tokyo - phauna - 2008-10-13
I think Ghandi also said, you must be the change you want to see in the world. However, come on Fabrice, should we really not talk about racist landlords? I don't think that is just inside of me. It hasn't even happened to me personally, but when I heard about it, I just knew it was wrong. I feel it's wrong. Someone staring at you on the subway is admittedly a tiny problem and not so racist, but to allow discrimination in housing, and restaurants too, that is not how even most Japanese want Japan to be. I've told a few Japanese people about it and at first they can't even believe it. Then they firmly say it's wrong.
Anyway, there is racism everywhere, but it doesn't make it right, and it shouldn't be swept under the rug. If we are just arguing about degree, then perhaps it's being exaggerated a bit, but so what?
Racism in Tokyo - Tobberoth - 2008-10-13
phauna Wrote:I think Ghandi also said, you must be the change you want to see in the world. However, come on Fabrice, should we really not talk about racist landlords? I don't think that is just inside of me. It hasn't even happened to me personally, but when I heard about it, I just knew it was wrong. I feel it's wrong. Someone staring at you on the subway is admittedly a tiny problem and not so racist, but to allow discrimination in housing, and restaurants too, that is not how even most Japanese want Japan to be. I've told a few Japanese people about it and at first they can't even believe it. Then they firmly say it's wrong.But it isn't just being exaggerated a bit, it's proclaimed in places it doesn't exist. It's true that it can be hard to find housing in Japan because some people don't want to live near foreigners. That's real and proper racism, and should not be accepted.
Anyway, there is racism everywhere, but it doesn't make it right, and it shouldn't be swept under the rug. If we are just arguing about degree, then perhaps it's being exaggerated a bit, but so what?
What is common on the net etc however, is that people claim foreigners aren't allowed into restaurants, izakayas and clubs. Which at least for every place I've been in in Japan simply isn't true at all. I lived in Japan for a whole year and didn't experience racism even once (unless it wasn't racist but simply barriers, for example I couldn't get a バイト at Mcdonalds because "i wasn't good enough at japanese" even though my korean friend had been working at a Mcdonalds since he came to Japan. While I consider this a FORM of racism, it's just really ignorance. Mcdonalds allow foreigners to work there, they just have a preconception that Koreans learn awesome Japanese in days where as caucasians have to spend months or years to reach the same level).
Racism in Tokyo - alantin - 2008-10-13
There is much true in what Faburisu said but I don't buy all of it..
Tobberoth Wrote:In ALL of these shows, Swedish actors etc who know nothing of Japan, go there and make complete asses out of themselves. I can't ***** stand it.We have a travel program like that here too..
I haven't really ever been more ashamed than when watching one episode.. (-.-);
Yeah! I think most suspicions raise from ignorance which brings fear (which brings hate, which is the way to the dark side!!! ^^) and pretty much the best cure is to get to know the people.
I used to be a bit suspicious of a group of exchange students that I have as my neighbors. To me they just looked intimidating, they often go around in larger groups, speak a language I can't comprehend etc.
Now that intimidating look has flown out of the window as I'm friends with many of them and have found them to be most warm hearted, earnest and hard working people!
Heck! It's a pretty sad neighborhood and I'm more scared of an average Finn around here than the foreigners! O_O
I have heard their stories about the kind of treatment they sometimes get here but one story in particular comes to mind.
One guy told me a couple of weeks ago how one night walking outside some guy just came from nowhere, hit his friend (a guy who I also know) with a baseball bat and went his way!
The funny part is that they didn't really seem to think of it as racism and told me that the baseball man must have just had some mental issues! O_O
That really made me think. Is he just too used to being subjected to racism or did he really see the true reason behind this attack being something else than his race? And who decides it?
This really is the kind of thing that makes me hesitant to call something like a Japanese cop asking for my ID or bike registration, racism! It's a pretty big word!
How am I supposed to know if he picked me because I'm white or because of some other reason and it's not automatically because he doesn't like your race..
Of course a landlord not renting to you because you're a foreigner is another thing but there too I wonder.. Would any legislation change it? If anything, they might just feel pressured and get even more suspicious!
The change must come from within!
Racism in Tokyo - kazelee - 2008-10-13
alantin Wrote:There is much true in what Faburisu said but I don't buy all of it..There is another paraphrase: Good or bad, people will always meet your expectations.
This goes down to the core.
As for staring, the easiest thing to do is to stare the person who is staring at you in the eye. Don't stop. Just stare until they break eye contact. Don't stop. Keep staring. No matter what, don't stop. Make a game out of it. See how long you can stare at the person. As you stare count to twenty. Take one step forward. Count to twenty. Take another step. They'll most likely move.
Quote:How am I supposed to know if he picked me because I'm white or because of some other reason and it's not automatically because he doesn't like your race..This isn't racism, but it is prejudice. He sees you're foreign and wants to make sure you are legal.
It's his job, though.
Now if he took you to a dark alley with tonfa in hand, then you might have to ask...
Racism in Tokyo - dilandau23 - 2008-10-13
This may be taken in the wrong light so I will pretext it a bit. I noticed that the people participating in this thread that seem to think discussing racism in Japan is a bigger problem (or at least more annoying) than the actual racism mostly hail from Scandinavia or Finland. I don't know anything about the culture in that region of the world, but I am curious to know if this is a cultural based viewpoint. I come from the US where not discussing racism is considered the more detrimental path. I don't mean to suggest anything by what I said. I don't think one way is better than the other. I honestly just noticed the pattern and became curious.
I personally feel that discussing racism in Japan (or elsewhere) outside of a forum (not just a thread) dedicated to the topic is a bad idea. Along with religion and politics, this topic is so personal that people can rarely avoid boiling over. When I give talks to new arrivals in Japan, I tell them this:
Yes there are racists in Japan, just like the rest of the world. Outside of housing discrimination, which is a whole problem unto itself, when you find yourself in a situation where you feel that you are being discriminated against in Japan, I recommend you act as if you are unaware that it is happening. This can be hard to feign, but give it your best shot. Pretend that the source of the problem is just cultural misunderstanding and deal with the situation as such. 9 times out of 10 it will turn out to be true anyway. The one time that it is actual discrimination, you will still probably get better results due to nuances of Japanese social discourse.
One last note, the only places I have ever seen first hand, that have signs up excluding foreigners, are businesses are all related to the sex trade (or sex-y trade) industry. If you can't get into hostess bar X because of your race, is that really grounds to get angry? Since when has an industry controlled or at least heavily influenced by organized crime had to follow the rules of polite society?
Racism in Tokyo - Dragg - 2008-10-14
I agree that discussing racism is generally useless unless it is of an overt nature. But in the case of specific policies or laws which may be discriminatory, I believe those points are worth talking about. Perceived racism is often based on internal factors as Fabrice suggests, but there are sometimes cases where the racism or prejudice is so blatant that something should be said. I really do believe that racism does exist on both a subjective and objective level to the point where the reality of it can't be ignored. Things like housing discrimination and unfair citizenship requirements are very real in Japan, and it is not any more constructive or morally correct to remain quiet on these issues than it would have been for Rosa Parks to remain silent and move to the back of the bus. The appropriateness of bringing up the subject on this forum is somewhat debatable, but it is simply not true that talking about racism only sustains the problem of racism especially if done in a respectful and civil manner.
Racism in Tokyo - kazelee - 2008-10-14
So only Japanese who look like Japanese have access to potentially underage/illegal sex workers/activities? Well now... now I'm truly offended. What has this world come to?
*begins to blog furiously*
LOL. JK.
You give talks to new arrival, huh? What do you do?
Edit: @dilandau23
Racism in Tokyo - wccrawford - 2008-10-14
Dragg Wrote:but it is simply not true that talking about racism only sustains the problem of racism especially if done in a respectful and civil manner.I've long thought that continuously bringing up racism was prolonging it. I'm not denying it exists, but bringing it up where it -doesn't- exist makes things worse. I've had people accuse me of being racist when I wasn't, simply because I didn't like them personally. It brings up such anger, especially if they are already showing a stereotype, that it makes me see where prejudice comes from.
On the other hand, I've also heard it said that something is in the past once it gets to the point that you can joke openly about it.
Racism in Tokyo - alantin - 2008-10-14
dilandau23 Wrote:This may be taken in the wrong light so I will pretext it a bit. I noticed that the people participating in this thread that seem to think discussing racism in Japan is a bigger problem (or at least more annoying) than the actual racism mostly hail from Scandinavia or Finland. I don't know anything about the culture in that region of the world, but I am curious to know if this is a cultural based viewpoint. I come from the US where not discussing racism is considered the more detrimental path. I don't mean to suggest anything by what I said. I don't think one way is better than the other. I honestly just noticed the pattern and became curious.Well.. I don't know how representative two (or three?) people can be but I think you're on to something here!
The way people (Americans?) often bring the subject up, to me, makes it seem like it is a huge problem and that the Japanese generally discriminate white western people but in my own experience I don't see it.
I also know many Finns who have lived years (some decades!) in Japan and none of them talks about racism in Japan the same way or with the same heat that I encounter on many forums.
Never the less. I assure you, racism isn't something that's considered lightly here!
The history should have much to do with it. Americans have their own history and I wonder if that makes them more racially self aware than an average person elsewhere..? I don't know.
On the other hand, Finland has throughout the history been pretty homogeneous and we have only relatively recently started having lots of immigrants and in this sense we are in a similar situation with Japan although we probably have relatively more foreigners here than in Japan!
I just wonder.. What makes a person perceive everything to be race related and who in a given situation is the one with racial prejudice?
Can't a foreigner in Japan, who gets stopped by the police for an ID check and the first idea he gets is that it is because the cop sees that he is a foreigner, be perceived as the racist in the situation himself?
Is the only way for a Japanese cop to not be a racists to never bother a foreigner despite the reason and even then he becomes a racist the second he asks a foreigner for ID?
Does he not have prejudice when he has to bother a Japanese person and how is different?
Am I really supposed to believe that a Japanese police officer is always a great devil and how come this side of it is rarely addressed if people really are so concerned about racism.
Just some thoughts.
Racism in Tokyo - kazelee - 2008-10-14
"I've had people accuse me of being racist when I wasn't, simply because I didn't like them personally. It brings up such anger, especially if they are already showing a stereotype, that it makes me see where prejudice comes from."
Chances are they identified with that stereotype. You disliked there adherence to it and thus they took is a dislike of their being as well. It's a misunderstanding on both parts. If you are not racist, you have no reason to be angered by a misunderstanding. On the note of prejudice, most people who display it have not been a situation like yours. This might sound hard to hear, and but perhaps it's possible you wanted to understand where it came from and this was the only conclusion you could make with the evidence you had.
alantin Wrote:What makes a person perceive everything to be race related and who in a given situation is the one with racial prejudice?It's a two way street. Or one way. Either one person or both people make assumptions.
Can't a foreigner in Japan, who gets stopped by the police for an ID check and the first idea he gets is that it is because the cop sees that he is a foreigner, be perceived as the racist in the situation himself?
Is the only way for a Japanese cop to not be a racists to never bother a foreigner despite the reason and even then he becomes a racist the second he asks a foreigner for ID?
Does he not have prejudice when he has to bother a Japanese person and how is different?
Am I really supposed to believe that a Japanese police officer is always a great devil and how come this side of it is rarely addressed if people really are so concerned about racism.
It is impossible to gather enough evidence to say what something truly means when it only happens for the first time, and there are exponential unknowns.
Was the officer a new recruit? Was the foreigner demonstrating, culturally, suspicious behavior? Could it be that maybe the officer had never seen a white person before and was just curious? Could it be that an APB was put out on a person meeting the foreigners description? Could the officer having little experience in discerning the faces of foreigners be blamed for making a mistake if he though the foreigner was a suspect? Did the officer just have a bad day and this foreigner was literally the first person he came across? Was the foreigner in an area where many other foreigners get in trouble? Did the officer think the foreigner was John Travolta and stopped him to get on autograph only to be disappointed?
Could it be...?
Could it be...?
Could it be...?
In a situation where there is no evidence to support any conclusion, what the situation means to you is exactly what you tell yourself it means.
A random guy walks up to you and slaps you in the face. You ask the guy why he did, to which he responds, "You tell me?"
When you ask yourself why when you are use to thinking negative the answer will most often be negative. The same is true about thinking positive.
The most important factor is you.
Back on the topic of hilarity, these guys are hilarious on the subject of differences:
http://jp.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=RecklessTortuga
MadTV
http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=OiaR3f_kx7U
Racism in Tokyo - wccrawford - 2008-10-14
kazelee Wrote:Chances are they identified with that stereotype. You disliked there adherence to it and thus they took is a dislike of their being as well. It's a misunderstanding on both parts. If you are not racist, you have no reason to be angered by a misunderstanding.They probably did identify with it... But that wasn't why I disliked them. I disliked them for being rude and ignorant. (The few I'm thinking of, anyhow.) I don't care what race you are, if you're rude and ignorant, I won't like you.
So no, there was no misunderstanding on my part... And probably not on theirs. They saw a way to put pressure on me and took it. Sadly for them, I can handle that situation and it only made things worse.
My point was that they bring up racism where it doesn't already exist and it encourages racism.
While I'm on that point, do-gooders that run around and say things like 'We can't call it Black Friday because it might insult some people' are making it worse, too. Black Friday has nothing at all to do with skin color and making it be about skin color is racist, the very thing they are supposed to be against.
Racism in Tokyo - kazelee - 2008-10-14
wccrawford Wrote:My point was that they bring up racism where it doesn't already exist and it encourages racism.We humans have a nack for bring out in others what we assume be underneath
.Quote:While I'm on that point, do-gooders that run around and say things like 'We can't call it Black Friday because it might insult some people' are making it worse, too. Black Friday has nothing at all to do with skin color and making it be about skin color is racist, the very thing they are supposed to be against.LOL.
What!?
Yes and I suppose martians would be disturbed by the phrase "green with envy" as well.
This problem wouldn't even exist if people would accept that skin doesn't come in primary or secondary colors. Also, sex would be a better way to categorize race than skin color. Between man and woman lies the most variation you will see in the human species.
LOL. What am a saying?
WCCrawford, you are silly. And you know what, your talking about how the talking about of racism only causes more racism is only serving to cause more racism.
Racism in Tokyo - bodhisamaya - 2008-10-14
Actually I am much more racist against white people than Japanese are and I am white! When I returned to Hawaii, I stopped by the grocery store and bought some items. The girl at the register was talking on her cell phone while checking me out. She gave me the wrong change and it was frustrating trying to get her attention. The change was old and torn bills as well. The bus was an hour late and the driver was rude. I had to watch my things closely so no one would take them when I never had to do that in Japan. I experienced culture shock returning home and wondered how Japanese tourists can stand us. I only date Japanese women now as I can not deal with American women's emotional extremes. My co-workers are lazy and give no customer service. I have never been treated with dis-trust in Japan but I can cetainly understand why it would happen. I feel bad about it but is it wrong when pre-judgements are proven correct by behavior?
Racism in Tokyo - Dragg - 2008-10-14
yes, pre-judgements are always wrong if they are based on race even if you think you are justified by an expected reaction that occurs laters. Every individual is different and such generalizations are never reasonable.
Racism in Tokyo - kazelee - 2008-10-14
bodhisamaya Wrote:Actually I am much more racist against white people than Japanese are and I am white! When I returned to Hawaii, I stopped by the grocery store and bought some items. The girl at the register was talking on her cell phone while checking me out. She gave me the wrong change and it was frustrating trying to get her attention. The change was old and torn bills as well. The bus was an hour late and the driver was rude. I had to watch my things closely so no one would take them when I never had to do that in Japan. I experienced culture shock returning home and wondered how Japanese tourists can stand us. I only date Japanese women now as I can not deal with American women's emotional extremes. My co-workers are lazy and give no customer service. I have never been treated with dis-trust in Japan but I can cetainly understand why it would happen. I feel bad about it but is it wrong when pre-judgements are proven correct by behavior?Interesting... so you "only" date Japanese girls?
Racism in Tokyo - bodhisamaya - 2008-10-14
Perhaps race is a bad term. A person's race is less of a predictor than where one is born. Of course, individuals within a culture can vary widely. As someone who grew up among red-necks in Arkansas I know that first hand. Can anyone who has lived in Japan and lived in a Western culture actually say that there is no difference in honesty and work ethic? Can anyone who has dated Japanese girls and Western girls say there is no difference? Show everyone equal respect but to deny there is no difference in habits among different cultures is insane. As a pre-judgment on how good an employee a person would be, I would be inclined to hire a Japanese national over an American no matter the race all other factors being even. Hawaii has a huge population of third and fourth generation people of Japanese heritage but they are no less American in their habits than Caucasians.
Racism in Tokyo - kazelee - 2008-10-14
ah so
Racism in Tokyo - Dragg - 2008-10-14
I understand the point about culture differences, but I don't believe it is polite or morally responsible to take those things into consideration when you are dealing with an individual, particularly in a job interview setting. Every person is a unique individual and should be appreciated for their personal deeds and merits. I wouldn't assume that a Japanese native has a strong work ethic any more than I would assume a black American likes rap music. Just because there are possible likelihoods doesn't mean it is polite to make such assumptions. In the hypothetical job interview you mentioned where both candidates are equally experienced and suited for the job, I would rather flip a coin than make such assumptions.