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Pronunciation help - tatsuya - 2008-11-08
Can anyone give some pointers on developing a native sounding accent in Japanese?
Pronunciation help - Tobberoth - 2008-11-08
tatsuya Wrote:Can anyone give some pointers on developing a native sounding accent in Japanese?Listen to and talk a lot of Japanese. There really is not shortcut. These techniques are good:
* Shadow Japanese, IE listen to some Japanese audio and mimic it as it's playing.
* Record yourself talking Japanese to find where your pronounciation is lacking.
Pronunciation help - Raichu - 2008-11-08
Tobberoth's recommendations are great. I definitely used to "shadow". I never did the second technique since I can't stand the sound of my own recorded voice.
What helped make the difference for me, though, was finding a book that explained the fine details. Like the fact that Japanese /t/, /d/ are more dental than English, and all the varieties of sounds made by ん. When I combined the theory with actual listening and mimicking, I ended up quite happy with the results.
Mind you I've never asked a Japanese person how close to authentic I sound.
If you have specific questions, then feel free to ask and I'll try to dig up what info I have.
Pronunciation help - Ryuujin27 - 2008-11-09
The best thing to do is speak Japanese to a native and force them to tell you every single time your pronunciation is off.
Mind you, this takes some work. You have to go make a Japanese friend who is a little more Americanized so that he/she will actually correct you. Luckily, I've got a Japanese roommate right now who does tell me every time I mess a word up. Recently, I've found that my pronunciation is much better, as he stopped correcting me quite so often.
Also, that shadowing is a good technique. http://www.whiterabbitpress.com/catalog/Shadowing-Lets-Speak-Japanese-CD-included-p-16500.html This site was posted a while ago in a thread and that book definitely sounds like a fantastic idea.
Pronunciation help - alyks - 2008-11-09
I suppose just imitate speakers. But look for people who you can idolize and role model. Real people are good (Adopt a JP parent, anybody...?), awesome TV show characters are good too. It's just, try and find people you really like and imitate them. Make yourself sound exactly like them and go around thinking about how they would say things.
I guess. This isn't an exact science here.
Pronunciation help - Katsuo - 2008-11-09
tatsuya Wrote:Can anyone give some pointers on developing a native sounding accent in Japanese?There's a long thread here on the subject.
Pronunciation help - Erubey - 2008-11-09
I just watched a ton of TV. That being said, what the shows didn't' cover I also didn't, so my keigo still sounds like I'm learning but when I'm just chatting its good. I have to say though that written explanations about sounds never helped me personally, though it could to you. For example the whole R-L deal and how the R is a mix of d/l/r was it? Has that ever helped anybody? I'm not even sure how that works.
I also say everything in my SRS out loud when I review it, no exceptions
Pronunciation help - zoletype - 2008-11-09
Make Japanese friends.
Speak a lot of Japanese.
When you hear them speak and it sounds radically different to yourself, you'll naturally adjust your own speech.
Watching tv and listening to music etc is all great but if you have an opportunity to have Japanese friends and hear real Japanese, you really can't beat it.
I don't know how native my accent sounds but I've heard from many people that it's very natural and very different to the majority of foreigners in Japan.
Case in point, I was at a burger stand with some buddies (they've lived in Japan for several years) and we got talking to some salarymen. They told me my Japanese was really good and that I should help my friends improve, but actually their Japanese is far superior to my own, but they sound soooooooooooooo american/australian when they speak.
A good accent is key to faking fluency
Pronunciation help - Evil_Dragon - 2008-11-09
zoletype Wrote:A good accent is key to faking fluencyDefinately true! I had a talk in German with a french guy the other day and because of the accent it sounded so natural, he might as well have been German himself. So I try to copy Japanese people as much as I can, even when watching TV or DVDs I focus on how their mouths move when pronouncing certain sounds that I have difficulties with.
Hopefully I won't pick up a Kansai dialect by watching ダウンタウン too often.
Pronunciation help - timcampbell - 2008-11-09
From my experience with exchange students, shadowing seems to be the best way to develop a good accent. Whenever I run into a student who has a very natural accent and way of speaking I always ask how they studied, and they always say shadowing (I'm not sure if it's a coincidence, but they always seem to be female as well). For example, they will watch episodes of "Friends" and copy the lines the female characters say - not repeat afterwards, but speak AT THE SAME TIME, copying every up and down and intonation. Over time they develop a feel for the rhythm of the language, just like a native speaker.
I do this myself for shorter sentences - can't keep up on the longer ones yet. Though my intonation still needs work, I rarely have a problem with anyone understanding my Japanese pronunciation. (completely buggering up the structure of a sentence is another matter, though ...)
Pronunciation help - phauna - 2008-11-09
Ryuujin27 Wrote:You have to go make a Japanese friend who is a little more Americanized so that he/she will actually correct you.Now where will I find one of those in Australia? I think perhaps you mean Westernised, but even that is all manner of stereotypical. I find just asking them to do it is sufficient, whether they are 'Japanised' or not.
Pronunciation help - thermal - 2008-11-09
On top of what has been mentioned, an important part is trying with every word and sentence you say. If you do this you will see steady progress. Don't forget that this especially includes katakana words. Don't say "three" say "surii". It's not "America" it's "Amerika". Also there are no stresses! Be careful of saying for example "baNAna", it's "banana"
In particular you want want to focus on the sounds that are different to english. らりるれろ for example. I would go so far as to practice the individual sounds, repeating after a tape or something. If you can get this basis right, then you will have the building blocks to have great pronunciation.
Also if you ever find something difficult to say, practice it over and over again. Some examples:
暖かかった
輸出する
弱肉強食
管理する（the ん into らりるれろ group is a tough one for me)
You should move forward with the goal of never interspersing your Japanese with English, even to the degree of getting rid of um. You need to have you Japanese flow around your fillers and meaningless language （まあ、あのう、えっと〜）
Pronunciation help - Jarvik7 - 2008-11-09
thermal Wrote:Also there are no stresses! Be careful of saying for example "baNAna", it's "banana"...but Japanese does have stresses, or rather pitches. According to the NHK pronunciation dictionary it's BAnana.
Quote:You should move forward with the goal of never interspersing your Japanese with English, even to the degree of getting rid of um. You need to have you Japanese flow around your fillers and meaningless language （まあ、あのう、えっと〜）Ideally you would remove filler words from your language entirely, in both English and Japanese. It makes you seem like a better speaker/smarter. I can recall a foreign speaker of Japanese who really overused Japanese filler words and seemed like a complete fool because of it.
Pronunciation help - Hashiriya - 2008-11-09
if you study vocabulary from http://www.iknow.co.jp all the vocab and sentences have audio to them... just repeatedly shadow the sentences when you study and you will have a native accent in no time... my japanese girlfriend says I have a native accent when I speak in japanese and that's all I have been doing... well that and watching a lot of japanese tv....
Pronunciation help - Jarvik7 - 2008-11-09
Hashiriya Wrote:if you study vocabulary from http://www.iknow.co.jp all the vocab and sentences have audio to them... just repeatedly shadow the sentences when you study and you will have a native accent in no time... my japanese girlfriend says I have a native accent when I speak in japanese and that's all I have been doing... well that and watching a lot of japanese tv....A lot of the sentences at iknow have exaggerated pronunciation to the point of hilarity. Some sound like a dramatic moment in a videogame or anime or something, but it's just a sentence like "the car is red". Overall it's pretty good but don't trust it 100%/as much as spontaneous native speech.
Pronunciation help - Ryuujin27 - 2008-11-09
phauna Wrote:Saying "Americanized" was just a little less obvious way of saying "rude" haha (at least by Japanese standards). Also, I did a couple of tests with some more of my Japanese friends. I would say something intentionally wrong but kind of close (just chose an awkward word or mispronounce something) and they would just keep flowing... until I yelled at them for not correcting meRyuujin27 Wrote:You have to go make a Japanese friend who is a little more Americanized so that he/she will actually correct you.Now where will I find one of those in Australia? I think perhaps you mean Westernised, but even that is all manner of stereotypical. I find just asking them to do it is sufficient, whether they are 'Japanised' or not.
.Generally, you need to check them on that. Because while I will help them all with their English, and tell them the second they make a mistake, they often don't do the same (except for two... one who just laughs at me for a bit when I make a "dumb" mistake).
P.S. - As to the last part, the whole laughing at you thing is great! Find a Japanese friend who will! It'll force you to get it right, lest you be laughed at and mocked again... And nobody likes that, right?
Pronunciation help - Jarvik7 - 2008-11-09
Ryuujin27 Wrote:P.S. - As to the last part, the whole laughing at you thing is great! Find a Japanese friend who will! It'll force you to get it right, lest you be laughed at and mocked again... And nobody likes that, right?I see you've met my girlfriend... It's just a shame that she doesn't speak English, otherwise I could return the favor.
Pronunciation help - Hashiriya - 2008-11-09
I think iknow mixed with some tv watching really isn't that bad for studying pronounciation though... sure somethings are exaggerated but if you watch tv along with studying I think you develop an intuition of what is and isn't exaggerated...
Pronunciation help - thermal - 2008-11-09
Jarvik7 Wrote:True it does have pitches, but they are different from the stresses in English. For stresses in English the stressed point of the word is lengthened and louder than the rest of the word. Then there are sentence stresses, which is another pitfall to be avoided when speaking Japanese.thermal Wrote:Also there are no stresses! Be careful of saying for example "baNAna", it's "banana"...but Japanese does have stresses, or rather pitches. According to the NHK pronunciation dictionary it's BAnana.
Quote:You should move forward with the goal of never interspersing your Japanese with English, even to the degree of getting rid of um. You need to have you Japanese flow around your fillers and meaningless language （まあ、あのう、えっと〜）Ideally you would remove filler words from your language entirely, in both English and Japanese. It makes you seem like a better speaker/smarter. I can recall a foreign speaker of Japanese who really overused Japanese filler words and seemed like a complete fool because of it.
I have also noticed foreigners who overuse filler words. I am actually a bit guilty of this myself, but it is not exactly overuse, since I really am thinking about what to say and they convey this. It's better to use them rather than to have long pauses! あのう also has additional functions of interjecting politely and such. まあ softens the following sentence.
I know it is nicer to not say um in English. But things like, "arrr" "well" "you know" "mmm" "heh" everyone uses and are important.
Pronunciation help - Ryuujin27 - 2008-11-09
Jarvik7 Wrote:Haha, I laughed out loud at this!Ryuujin27 Wrote:P.S. - As to the last part, the whole laughing at you thing is great! Find a Japanese friend who will! It'll force you to get it right, lest you be laughed at and mocked again... And nobody likes that, right?I see you've met my girlfriend... It's just a shame that she doesn't speak English, otherwise I could return the favor.
Fortunately for me, my Japanese friends all speak/are learning English. So I get to return the favor plenty
Pronunciation help - samesong - 2008-11-11
A few tips:
-If you're a guy, listen to guys. If you're a girl, listen to girls (this is especially speaking to you dudes).
I've heard many, many guys raising their voice half an octave when they start to speak Japanese because they are unconsciously mimicking their female friends / girlfriends/ favorite hentai voice actress. The differences in speaking intonations between males and females aren't radically different, but there's enough of a variance that you will sound pretty feminine when speaking if you don't get an idea of how males speak.
-Listen and repeat whatever you're currently reading. Have a Japanese friend/teacher read a sentence, listen to their pronunciation and intonation, and mimic them.
-Sing in Japanese! Find some songs, memorize the lyrics, and sing them to yourself. Listen to the song again, compare your pronunciation with the singers, fix what's wrong, sing again. As this is singing, it won't help with intonation, but it will do wonders for your vowels and consonants.
-Practicing and paying special attention to these sounds will improve your pronunciation dramatically:
-ら り る れ る. It's best NOT to think about this as "ra ri ru re ro". (as pronounced in English). Think of them as closer to the sound of D in English.
(warning: if there is a variance in an American English accent and others, I apologize. I'm just a yank! And I don't know anything about linguistics; I just have a pretty accent
)Say the word "dam". Feel where your tongue is inside your mouth when making the "D". It should feel like a good part of your tongue flatly flick against the roof of your mouth. Now say the word "ram". You should feel your tongue curling to a point inside your mouth. Now try pronouncing ら by combining these two sounds. Your tongue should curl like it's about to pronounce an R, but should extend all the way up to flick agains the roof of your mouth like you would pronounce a D.
-ふ
Correct way: purse your lips like you're going to give somebody a peck on the cheek, but open them slightly. Bring air up all the way from your chest, and push that air out, like blowing out a candle. If you over-emphasize it, you'll actually feel your stomach muscles slightly contracting.
Incorrect way: Connecting the bottom of your lip with your upper row of teeth and forcing air out solely through your mouth. This is an English F - no place for this sound in Japanese!
Pronunciation help - kazelee - 2008-11-11
You seem to operating under the assumption that foreign men "don't" want to sound like little girls when they talk.
Pronunciation help - TheSpartan - 2008-11-11
As a gay, that is exactly the way I want to sound.
Pronunciation help - PrettyKitty - 2008-11-11
If that's the case, don't worry about it since most straight guys trying to sound like straight guys end up sounding effeminate anyway.
Pronunciation help - kazelee - 2008-11-12
PrettyKitty Wrote:If that's the case, don't worry about it since most straight guys trying to sound like straight guys end up sounding effeminate anyway.Cute
Quote:As a gay, that is exactly the way I want to sound.I was not expecting that...