Question about this sentence - Printable Version

Question about this sentence - Printable Version

+- kanji koohii FORUM (http://forum.koohii.com)
+-- Forum: Learning Japanese (http://forum.koohii.com/forum-4.html)
+--- Forum: General discussion (http://forum.koohii.com/forum-8.html)
+--- Thread: Question about this sentence (/thread-1877.html)

Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6

Question about this sentence - Virtua_Leaf - 2008-09-15

車のエンジンから異常な音がしたので急停車した

I know by adding する onto the end of a noun makes it into a verb. But here there's a が as well. Why is it 音がした and not 音した?

And at the end of the sentence it's 急停車した instead of 急停車がした. What's the difference and when do you use it?

Question about this sentence - Tobberoth - 2008-09-15

The subject is different.

車のエンジンから異常な音がしたので急停車した
Because a strange sound was made from the engine, i made a sudden stop.

急停車した is a pure verb. To make a sudden stop.
音がした means "a sound was made". The person saying the sentence didn't make the sound, it was made by itself. The がした structure is quite common. For example, 変な匂いがした which means "it smelled funny".

Question about this sentence - thermal - 2008-09-15

To paraphrase a dictionary of basic japanese grammar:

がする is used when something is percieved by the subject's non-visual senses.

Thus it is a special case. As mentioned, 急停車した is just a normal verb. Here are some more examples.

変な味がする。
子供たちの声がする。
寒気がする。

Question about this sentence - Virtua_Leaf - 2008-09-15

Okay, interesting. The 'non visual' rule would certainly explain why I keep seeing 感じがする。

But what exactly is a pure verb? I assumed at first it was just a standard, non n-suru verb but 停車 is, according to Denshi Jisho a "Noun, Suru verb". - http://jisho.org/words?jap=%E5%81%9C%E8%BB%8A&eng=&dict=edict&common=on

Question about this sentence - Tobberoth - 2008-09-15

Virtua_Leaf Wrote:Okay, interesting. The 'non visual' rule would certainly explain why I keep seeing 感じがする。

But what exactly is a pure verb? I assumed at first it was just a standard, non n-suru verb but 停車 is, according to Denshi Jisho a "Noun, Suru verb". - http://jisho.org/words?jap=%E5%81%9C%E8%BB%8A&eng=&dict=edict&common=on

I didn't mean anything special with pure, I just meant that it can be treated just like any non-jukugo verb, like taberu, yaru etc. So while the 音がする thing is a semi-special structure, 急停車する is not, it's just a normal suru verb.

Question about this sentence - QuackingShoe - 2008-09-15

This also works into the idiomatic 気がする, which means to gain an impression of something with NONE of your senses.

I don't believe Tobberoth was calling 急停車 a 'pure verb,' he was saying 急停車する was a verb, pure and simple. As opposed to a が or に or whatever use.

Edit: Beaten!

Question about this sentence - samesong - 2008-09-15

Interesting! I suppose においがする also falls under this rule.

Question about this sentence - mentat_kgs - 2008-09-15

Tobberoth Wrote:変な匂いがした which means "it smelled funny".

匂 is a non RTK kanji, btw.

Question about this sentence - samesong - 2008-09-16

nest0r Wrote:
QuackingShoe Wrote:This also works into the idiomatic 気がする, which means to gain an impression of something with NONE of your senses.
Those idioms can be quite tricky. I just discovered that 亡くなりました technically means or can mean 'become nothing (past)' or something like that, but is a euphemism for dying, like 'passed away'. Interesting stuff though.

　I believe the kanji is different depending on the intended meaning.
If somebody died, it's 亡くなった、which makes sense. And if if it's in the sense of something 'becoming nothing', as you said, like plans, it would be 予定が無くなった。

But the first time I heard 無くなる used was when I thought it only meant for someone to die, so when somebody told me the plans to go the beach died yesterday, I was pretty puzzled.

Question about this sentence - QuackingShoe - 2008-09-16

nest0r Wrote:Those idioms can be quite tricky. I just discovered that 亡くなりました technically means or can mean 'become nothing (past)' or something like that, but is a euphemism for dying, like 'passed away'. Interesting stuff though.

On the flip side, 無くなった just means to have vanished. Or いなくなった for animate, but the first was more fun since it's pronounced the same as 亡くなった >.>
It's not necessarily idiomatic though. You can do that with anything. 忙しくなる, 暑くする, etc. They're just adverbs modifying verbs, but the Japanese think of them a little differently, IE 'to do hotly' means 'to make hot.'

Question about this sentence - Virtua_Leaf - 2008-09-17

This may have been covered in the explanations above, but...

すぐ輸血する必要がある

What's the difference between that and with the がある dropped (and then presumably with だ/です added)?

Question about this sentence - pm215 - 2008-09-17

Virtua_Leaf Wrote:This may have been covered in the explanations above, but...

すぐ輸血する必要がある

What's the difference between that and with the がある dropped (and then presumably with だ/です added)?

Roughly the same as the difference between "there is a need for an immediate blood transfusion" and "it is a need for ...", I think. (I don't think the latter makes much sense in either language unless you happened to have a suitably odd context.) If you wanted to end with
必要だ then perhaps すぐ輸血することが必要だ or すぐ輸血が必要だ ? (Disclaimer: my Japanese may have errors too :))

Question about this sentence - Tobberoth - 2008-09-17

Another good way of writing it with だ would be:

すぐ輸血するのは必要だ。

The main point is that 必要だ and 必要がある means two different things.
必要だ simply means "is important". As in これは必要だ。(This is important.) You use it with things that are important, with nouns.
必要がある however means "is important that it's done". As in これをやる必要がある. (It's important that this is done). You use it with actions which needs to be implemented, with verbs that is.

The reason why it works with my example is because of the の. 輸血するの is thus turned from a verb into a noun, more or less. It's the same with pm215's example where こと was used instead.

Question about this sentence - thermal - 2008-09-17

Whilst bearing in mind that translation is an inexact science, I would say this:

必要がある - There is a need for ...

必要だ - ... is needed.

The latter sounds more urgent, like time is a factor. The first sounds like X must be done before Y, but time is not so important. Also 必要がある sounds like this need was concluded earlier. Maybe a nurse makes the conclusion, then the doctor comes in and she informs him. 必要だ sounds more like the conclusion was just made eg "Oh no! A tranfusion is needed!"

Subtle differences in any case. I would worry too much though. Doing AJATT and getting a lot of Japanese input your brain should naturally choose the most appropriate.

Question about this sentence - Virtua_Leaf - 2008-10-09

Hey, can I ask about another sentence? I got it off an article at AJATP:

「捨てぜりふを発した。」

I basically don't know what ぜりふ means and no dictionary seems to be helping.

Thanks.

Question about this sentence - albion - 2008-10-09

It's せりふ (台詞・科白).

Question about this sentence - Virtua_Leaf - 2008-10-09

albion Wrote:It's せりふ (台詞・科白).

Thank you very much.

You know when you come across something like this, what's the best thing to do? Just ask people in the know like I did?

Question about this sentence - Tobberoth - 2008-10-09

Virtua_Leaf Wrote:
albion Wrote:It's せりふ (台詞・科白).
Thank you very much.

You know when you come across something like this, what's the best thing to do? Just ask people in the know like I did?

Yeah, that's your best bet. For me, I understood it from context in this situation but if I hadn't, my first thing to do would easily be to ask my girlfriend Smile

Question about this sentence - albion - 2008-10-09

I think in cases like this with compound words (or words that look like compounds), you could just try taking off the 連濁（れんだく）, so try changing ぜ to せ or び to ひ, etc.

But if you're still unsure, it never hurts to ask for confirmation.

Question about this sentence - Virtua_Leaf - 2008-10-11

Thanks for the advice. It was sort of lingering in the back of my head when I was sentence mining and in turn was affecting my progress.

Question about this sentence - Virtua_Leaf - 2008-10-12

Okay, let's see how you handle these. Smile

(these are from the same source (Xenogears), but not directly linked to each other):

- おうっ！　新型のギア一機に助っ人二人ってとこかな。
- ってわけだ。
- いててて！！　耳、ひっぱんなって！

Ugh, slang seems like another language to me sometimes. Sad

But then here's some polite speech that confuses me:

メイソン　「驚かれたでしょう？
　　　　　　近頃は若の近くにもヤバンな... ...、いやいや元気の良過ぎる輩が多すぎましてな。
　　　　　　教育係のこのメイソン、無理を言ってこのような部屋をこしらえたのでございます！！」
　　　　　　（しかし、そのために内職せねばならないハメに... ...）

What the hell does this mean!? My very rough interpretation would be:

Mason: Were you startled?
Recently wherever the master (Balt) goes ruckus follows... Oh no no,
comrades that are too healthy are too much.
I his teacher, by saying unreasonable things, make this sort of room!!
(however, for that reason I must have a home-based job...)

That came out worse than Google translator. And for the record he's in the gun room...

And one last one:

もう一度、指差し安全確認！　注意一秒、若一生！

Thanks.

Edit - Here's the link to the script: http://wiki.livedoor.jp/xenowords/d/Xenogears%20%2d%20%b3%a4%c2%b1%a5%a2%a5%b8%a5%c8

Question about this sentence - albion - 2008-10-12

I think I've seen these, though I'm not that far and it's been a while since I've had the chance to play it.

- おうっ！　新型のギア一機に助っ人二人ってとこかな。
One new model of Gear, and two [new] helpers (for the ship).

ってとこ（というところ） is used to explain a current situation (この段階での状況を説明する).

- いててて！！　耳、ひっぱんなって！
Reworded to be less slangy: 痛い、痛い！　耳を引っ張るな（引っ張らないで下さい）って（言った）！（だからやめて）～るな gets shortened to ～んな (also ～てるの to ～てんの, for example).

もう一度、指差し安全確認！　注意一秒、若一生！
注意一秒、若一生 is a play on 注意一秒、怪我一生, which means that if you let your attention falter for even one second you could end up with an injury that won't ever heal so you'd better be careful (注意を一秒怠ると、一生直らない怪我をするので気を付けよう). 若 is what the crew of the ship call Bart.

I don't remember the context of this (or if I've even got to this part yet), so I don't really know what else to say. The first part would be something like "check again/double check [or has been checked and confirmed] finger-pointing safety"? Making sure people don't get their fingers trapped in machines? Reference to something completely different? Again, I don't really know what to say.

Now I've finished eating:

- ってわけだ。
わけだ shows a reason or explaination for something, or another way or. In this case, "there you have it, [you can ask for anything you want], so forgive me [for what happened]"?

As for the long one, my reading:

近頃は若の近くにもヤバンな... ...、いやいや元気の良過ぎる輩が多すぎましてな。
Lately, around [Bart] there are too many uncivilized [rough, uncultured]... I mean, overly-enthusiastic fellows.

教育係のこのメイソン、無理を言ってこのような部屋をこしらえたのでございます！！」
I, Mason, who is in charge of education, made an unreasonable demand and made a room like this one!

（しかし、そのために内職せねばならないハメに... ...）
But as a result, I ended up having to take a second job [working on this room in addition to my main butlering duties]...)

はめになる（陥る） means as a result of something, you end up in some unfavourable situation.

Sources: the 注意１秒・・・ definition I got off a website. Other grammar explainations came from 日本語文型辞典.

Question about this sentence - Virtua_Leaf - 2008-10-13

This has proved a great help, thank you.

albion Wrote:I think I've seen these, though I'm not that far and it's been a while since I've had the chance to play it.

- おうっ！　新型のギア一機に助っ人二人ってとこかな。
One new model of Gear, and two [new] helpers (for the ship).

Does this mean the に is being used like an 'and' particle?

albion Wrote:- いててて！！　耳、ひっぱんなって！
Reworded to be less slangy: 痛い、痛い！　耳を引っ張るな（引っ張らないで下さい）って（言った）！（だからやめて）～るな gets shortened to ～んな (also ～てるの to ～てんの, for example).

Christ that was tangled up. I'll paste your whole expl into Anki.

albion Wrote:もう一度、指差し安全確認！　注意一秒、若一生！
注意一秒、若一生 is a play on 注意一秒、怪我一生, which means that if you let your attention falter for even one second you could end up with an injury that won't ever heal so you'd better be careful (注意を一秒怠ると、一生直らない怪我をするので気を付けよう). 若 is what the crew of the ship call Bart.

Is this one of those cases (like a newspaper headline) where the particles are done away with and only the essential information is left?

albion Wrote:近頃は若の近くにもヤバンな... ...、いやいや元気の良過ぎる輩が多すぎましてな。
Lately, around [Bart] there are too many uncivilized [rough, uncultured]... I mean, overly-enthusiastic fellows.

Ahh, I see it now. But what does にも mean?

albion Wrote:教育係のこのメイソン、無理を言ってこのような部屋をこしらえたのでございます！！」
I, Mason, who is in charge of education, made an unreasonable demand and made a room like this one!

I'm always seeing stuff like このメイソン and そんな俺 etc.. What purpose are these 'this/that' words serving?

My inability to comprehend a lot of this slang type of talk is really hindering me. Can you suggest a good way of improving in this area? I'm going to start again with Making Out in Japanese but will that suffice for this type of thing?

Question about this sentence - Tobberoth - 2008-10-13

Virtua_Leaf Wrote:
albion Wrote:教育係のこのメイソン、無理を言ってこのような部屋をこしらえたのでございます！！」
I, Mason, who is in charge of education, made an unreasonable demand and made a room like this one!
I'm always seeing stuff like このメイソン and そんな俺 etc.. What purpose are these 'this/that' words serving?

My inability to comprehend a lot of this slang type of talk is really hindering me. Can you suggest a good way of improving in this area? I'm going to start again with Making Out in Japanese but will that suffice for this type of thing?

Using この before your name/your self is simply a way of "reinforcing" that you are indeed referring to yourself. It's not a must, it's not like the grammar is broken if you remove it. Translate to English and think about it.

教育係のこのメイソン
"This Meison who is in charge of education"

教育係のメイソン
"Meison who is in charge of education"

It is often used to speak a bit more highly about oneself, so seeing この俺 is quite common.

As for learning slang, i really don't think there is a definite good way of learning slang in particular. Watch japanese movies/series, read books and manga, talk to japanese people... Simply put yourself in a situation where you hear a lot of slang. Personally I wouldn't recommend Making Out In Japanese, it mostly teaches you "funny" set-phrases which are often not even useful.

Question about this sentence - Virtua_Leaf - 2008-10-13

Thanks once again Tobberoth. Smile

In that case I might use that grammar sparingly (been saying it a lot lately... may have come across as big-headed).

Tobberoth Wrote:As for learning slang, i really don't think there is a definite good way of learning slang in particular. Watch japanese movies/series, read books and manga, talk to japanese people... Simply put yourself in a situation where you hear a lot of slang. Personally I wouldn't recommend Making Out In Japanese, it mostly teaches you "funny" set-phrases which are often not even useful.

I am currently reading manga which has a lot of slang in it, but I'm more just reading it and wondering the hell what it means rather than picking it up. I've realised basic things like saying じゃねぇ～ instead of　じゃない etc., but most of it just goes over my head.

I guess just sentence mining some slang would do the trick, right? I might ask here again when I come across structures I truly can't make heads or tales of.

Do you know any good sources ready to be copy and pasted? Online manga scripts etc.?