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+--- Thread: Creating Stories (/thread-179.html)
Creating Stories - Seiun - 2006-09-19
Hi, I'm new to this community and just starting on my journey through RTK1.
Recently, I've been wondering if I've understood Heisig's method properly. In that, I'm not exactly sure what I'm supposed to be doing with the stories. I had my first second review of 40 kanji today, and I failed one of those.
The things is I remembered the elements of the kanji (Rise Up), however I wrote them in the wrong order. I drew my sun below the measuring box. So I've been wondering how people are keeping track of their primitives.
I've only a few kanji to remember, so I'm confident I can remember the 70 odd I have even if I'm not doing the method properly. But I can imagine that as that becomes thousands, I'm going to have more trouble.
I know I'll figure it out as I continue, but perhaps with a little advice I can remember the earlier kanji better. So, how does everyone do it?
For example, do you start with the keyword, then list the primitives in the correct stroke order then create a story following that order? Or do you simply create a story including all primitives, then remember how the kanji looked and stroke it correctly. Or do you have a story with all primitives, and create an image of how the kanji should look with your primitives? ie, for "straightaway" maybe you could have a needle stuck into an eyeball for a pin-cushion with the fish hook lying to the bottom left -- ready to be straightened out and passed though the eye of the needle?
Another thing is will the jump from keyword to story remain memorable after you've learned hundreds of characters. For example, will I easily make the jump from straightaway to straightening out a fish hook further down the line.
I feel that the stories should start with the keyword, then follow with the primatives in the correct order, but is this really necessary?
I'd be grateful for any advice. Thanks in advance!
Creating Stories - Christoph - 2006-09-19
Well, I definitely agree with you that having the keyword at the start of the story is preferential, however you'll probably find that when you start hitting high numbers of kanji, any story that is memorable enough to allow recall of the correct pieces is golden. Yes, it'd be nice to slot primitive order into the stories somewhere as well, but sometimes you might find that ordering the pieces compromizes how memorable the story is.
Also I've found that after a long time regularly going through the kanji you get a "feel" for where the primitives should go. Usually I can remember primitive order (regardless of where I placed it in the story) without too many hitches, of course thats not infallable and there are exceptions to the rules, but with this site, those kanji where you forget the primitive positions will get filtered, and you will end up reviewing it more often and that will re-inforce it.
Creating Stories - CharleyGarrett - 2006-09-19
I also try to start with the keyword, and then each of the primatives in the order that they would be written, and then I try to fit the keyword again at the end. Then I try to let the story form on that skeleton. If I misplace a primative a couple of times, I'll rework the story to add some more explicit primative-location cues.
Of course the point is the remember it, so whatever works for you is "golden". So, as advice, look for something visible, unusual, notable, maybe violent, maybe sexy, disturbing, humourous, naughty, puns. Commonplace, too logical, and then it's not as memorable (at least for me that's true).
Part of what makes this website great is just this. The community shares stories, and some are really very good. I always look for one to borrow, before I create my own. But some don't work for me personally. References to people, books, movies or vidio games that I'm not into, for example, don't work for me, but even then, I may know something similar that I can adapt the story too.
Good luck on your progress! Hang in there!
Creating Stories - ziggr - 2006-09-19
Going from keyword to elements in your story will help you later on when reviewing: facing a blank screen with nothing but the English keyword, you'll have a better chance at recalling the story. This isn't always possible without twisting the story or sentence into a convoluted mess, so I skip this recommendation probably 25-40% of the time.
I try not to let the kanji do the work for me: don't just look at the kanji and say "mouth+dirt=spit" and move on. When I do that, I end up stumped two weeks later when flash card for "spit" comes up and I can't remember a thing.
For positioning, many of the elements have a usual spot in the kanji. Sometimes this is called out in the book text, other times a helpful student here might have noted it within a story. You can often guess at usual positions just from the few kanji introduced with a new primitive: if you never see that primitive move in its first lesson, you don't need to worry about positioning. Later if it moves, you can adjust that story to reflect position.
There are some primitives that move all over the place. In those cases, I tend to make them the subject of the story (the actor) when on top or on the left, and an object of the story (acted upon) when bottom, left, or enclosed. This can really tax the imagination when the remaining elements aren't particularly strong, or are inanimate objects, in which case I often add a third actor to the story (making sure that the third actor is one never associated with a primitive, but usually associated with the object). But this trick has saved my hide on many occasions. For example, I think of 76 craft 工 as Futurama's Bender. In 82 paragraph 項, Bender is cranking out the pages full of paragraphs, but in 520 rainbow 虹, the insects are shredding and scattering Bender to create a rainbow.
Creating Stories - ziggr - 2006-09-19
And don't sweat it if you forget some kanji. As you get deeper into the book and start reviewing dozens of kanji each day, you'll invariably forget a few, especially on the second review. It's part of the learning process, not a personal failing. Usually you just need to reread the story, maybe tweak it here or there until it is more memorable, or occasionally let another story come through and replace the one you can't remember well.
I've had mornings where I forgot 20+ kanji on their second review. After spending 2-3 minutes with each one, reviewing and reforming the stories, I never forgot them again. I rarely forget them after that. If I let myself get frustrated at all the failed kanji, I just end up forgetting even more. Gotta stay relaxed and imaginative to let the stories come forward.
Creating Stories - astridtops - 2006-09-19
I also would say that you shouldn't worry about failing kanji. It can be actually helpful for a more difficult kanji to stay in your study area or your first or first two stacks for a while, so that you see it often. I sometimes fail a kanji on purpose if I did recall it, but it took too much effort, or if I have the feeling that I merely gambled on where the primitives should be.
And everyone works very differently on how they study and how much they allow themselves to fail. I work 'quick and dirty', I finished RTK1 in a steep pace once I found this site, and I still fail sometimes more than 10% of my daily study load of the kanji in the last stack. I don't see it as a problem. These kanji just go back to zero, and I will take a new look at them and see them a bit more often in the next few days.
With newly studied kanji, I often fail more than 50% in the first review. But in 3 or 4 reviews, I get them and they move on. So, all kinds of different ways to study.
Creating Stories - jondesousa - 2006-09-19
astridtops Wrote:I work 'quick and dirty', I finished RTK1 in a steep pace once I found this site, and I still fail sometimes more than 10% of my daily study load of the kanji in the last stack. I don't see it as a problem. These kanji just go back to zero, and I will take a new look at them and see them a bit more often in the next few days.I also followed this approach and I think that it is pretty good. I finished RTK1 in about 3 months and I also find that I don't always get my kanji right the first, second, third time, but overall, I remember much, much more than I forget. I think that if you feel comfortable with forgetting a few and going back to correct them, that is fine. If you feel that you need to know every kanji, every time, that is fine also. I think it is truly up to what you feel makes sense to you.
Creating Stories - Seiun - 2006-09-19
Thanks for all the responses!
I'll try not to worry about failing. I was just afraid that down the line I wouldn't be able to keep track of the stroke order and positioning. I feel a lot more confident with all your encouragement! Thanks.
I was unsure about the method I was following and was becoming hesitant. It's good to hear some opinions of those more experienced.
It seems that this site will really help with troublesome kanji. I reworked the one I failed with a submitted story and I doubt I'll forget it now. I suppose I haven't used the system long enough to really witness that feature.
I'll try to use the skeleton you mentioned, charlie, where possible but focus on making my stories memorable as everyone's saying. The idea for actors as primitives sounds interesting. I'll keep a lookout on the site stories for those kind of ideas.
I was trying to be quick too, but thought I was maybe being too clumsy. It's nice to hear this site (review and study) provides a helpful saftey net!
I appreciate the support!
Creating Stories - twincy - 2007-02-20
guys... when u make stories, do you actually make one for keyword>kanji and one for kanji>keyword?
like this:
66. TEXTURE
kanji > keyword: a bodypart in the wind gets its texture affected.
keyword > kanji: the texture of the body part gets affected in the wind.
for me it seems a good thing (almost necessary).
any ideas?
::twincy
Creating Stories - chamcham - 2007-02-20
well, Heisig recommends that you only go from keyword-> kanji
Going from kanji -> keyword will take care of itself naturally.
So you're really doing double the work.
With 2042 kanji, that's a lot of extra work.