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+--- Thread: The Discouragement Thread (/thread-1762.html)
The Discouragement Thread - kazelee - 2008-11-30
Dragg Wrote:I forgot I asked that.kazelee Wrote:Did Khatzu says all classes suck?Yes, Khatzu says that "classes suck" on the AJATT website. But I suppose the fact that he didn't use the word "all" makes it open to interpretation to some folks. It seems pretty clear to me.
Whether he's says "all" or not makes a big difference, I think. For one, if he were to say all classes suck, he's not a source you'd want to be taking advice from because of the clear bias. If he didn't say "all" classes such and there are people saying that he does, then that creates a problem as well. I'm starting wonder who has actually read his site.
Ironically, I did a search on his site after typing the above.
http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blog/classes-suck
http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blog/a-proposal-towards-reduced-suckage-in-the-classroom
The Discouragement Thread - Dragg - 2008-11-30
@kaze
I had actually never read those two articles, not out of laziness, but because I can never figure out how to properly navigate the AJATT site in order to see everything.
Khatzu seems to be biased against classes based on those articles, don't you think? On the home page of his site he also says, "I didn't take classes (except for a high-level newspaper reading class which merely confirmed that classes, um, suck)." He had only taken one class and yet instead of just saying that his own class experience was bad, he generalizes about other classes which seems to infer that he thinks all existing Japanese classes suck. The fact that he can think of a hypothetical example in his article of how a class might work in the future doesn't really change how he thinks about all the existing ones now.
The Discouragement Thread - kazelee - 2008-11-30
He seems to be towards the schools suck direction. This is clear. It seems, perhaps just to me, that this opinion is more towards the current way in which schools are setup. The part about teachers not caring is often true, especially at the University level, where they may have hundreds of students to focus on. Well... not caring is a little strong... I'd say unable to give that personal touch to each and every student.
I agree with a lot of what he says. And now I see that he doesn't really like schools. However, I'm sure, much like his position on textbooks, does have exceptions to the rule. Otherwise.... to be blunt.... That's ignorant!
Edit: Then again, he could just analyzing cost versus return, and putting more cost at the sucky end of the spectrum.
Edit again: These are my last thoughts on his thoughts about classrooms as he's not actually here to give us any definite thoughts.
The Discouragement Thread - sutebun - 2008-11-30
It depends a lot on your goals and what you're willing to do to get there.
If you want to start from zero and get a really high level of ability in a short amount of time, normal classes will slow you down probably.
This might be different if considering language schools. I've heard (and on this board too) almost nothing but good things about language schools in Japan. Aside from the immersion, they tend to be intensive, which is good. Khatz had experience taking foreign language classes in America. The Antimoon dudes took their English classes in their home country I believe. Those type of classes don't tend to move very quickly and I can definitely understand their bias against classes because of them.
@Input vs Output
The important thing about the output is the interaction and forcing you to think for yourself. As much as I love input, I don't think input alone is sufficient to produce someone who can speak really, really, well.
However, I still wonder how much benefit simulating interaction can net a learner. For example, take a person (even an adult) with an outgoing/positive personality who might be able to talk back to their tv shows they watch, produce fake news casts on their own, and make up situations and role play by themself. They could probably get to a very high level with little interaction with native (or even non-native) speakers.
(Go out and make friends in that speak the language though. It's more fun.)
The Discouragement Thread - Dragg - 2008-11-30
@sutebun
I completely agree with your whole post. I think simulating Japanese interaction (if you have no Japanese-speaking friends handy) is a great idea for more advanced learners who are confident in their grammar skills, or, alternatively, for cautious lower level learners who take great pains not to guess on grammar points beyond their immediate knowledge at the time.
Personally, I talk to myself in Japanese while in the shower every morning. (I avoid practicing in public so people don't point and stare at the crazy man.
)At this point, I'm confident that I don't have to worry about ingraining bad grammar habits.
The Discouragement Thread - samesong - 2008-11-30
sutebun Wrote:However, I still wonder how much benefit simulating interaction can net a learner. For example, take a person (even an adult) with an outgoing/positive personality who might be able to talk back to their tv shows they watch, produce fake news casts on their own, and make up situations and role play by themself. They could probably get to a very high level with little interaction with native (or even non-native) speakers.Interacting with your shows will certainly help you more than if you passively watched the programming, but unfortunately there is no interaction or feedback in doing this.
Many times I would say something (to a native speaker), and thought what I said was completely intelligable, but either a)they didn't know exactly what I was getting at or b) misunderstood me and responded in a manner I wasn't expecting. Only real interaction can provide you with this type of feedback so you know how to clarify yourself or better state your intended meaning.
Quote:(Go out and make friends in that speak the language though. It's more fun.)Absolutely =)
The Discouragement Thread - oregum - 2008-12-27
This would be my favorite threads, if there were more discouragements and insults. They are like gasoline under my fire. I'm one of those people who try harder when I'm told I can't do it. Unfortunately, every time I'm told I'm doing great, I stop trying.
So keep 'em discouragement coming. Tell me, why 'they' told you that you can't do it. Tell me why I can't do it. Burn, baby, burn... and all that... hahahahaha
Here's some of mine:
"you're learning Japanese... why?"
"you're learning Japanese... what for?"
"Japanese? might as well learn Chinese"
"how many characters? ...that's impossible!"
"you've been studying for 2 years, can't you read yet?" (reason, I don't like class)
"do you like anime or something?"
on finding out that I'm studying Japanese
him: "it's the girls right?"
me: no not really, but yeah"
him: "come on, its the girls"
while I'm studying Japanese
him:"are you planning to go to China?"
me (annoyed): "this is Japanese"
him: "what's the difference?"
years back, talking to a guy RE-taking JPN101
me: "dude, you're failing because you never study"
him: "it's too hard"
I loved meeting 外人 in Tokyo who lived there for 3 years and didn't know jack (and for some reason half of them were dating Chinese chicks, go figure)
The Discouragement Thread - kazelee - 2008-12-28
Hilarious posts. I got those same question when I was studying Korean.
"Why?"
-like languages
"You know that's pretty much useless, right?"
-thanks for that
"You're into the Asian chicks"
-nah
"Why would you be studying all that time and watching all those shows if you weren't?"
.....
-like languages
"Dont lie"
-not
"Just admit"
-kay...
"See I knew it"
I'm a little more concise when I speak
While studying Japanese...
"Why are you learning Japanese"
-Shrugs shoulders
"You know that's pretty much useless, right?"
-kay
"You're into the Asian chicks"
-got me
"Why would you be studying all that time and watching all those shows if you weren't?"
.....
-hawt
"Dont lie"
-not
"Just admit"
-kay...
"See I knew it"
Or
*randoms stream of characters appears while watching tv*
"What's that say?"
-Dunno
"Common, You've been studying all this time you should know something"
-Few, she, earth, prison (少女地獄)...
"What?"
-said don't know
"What does that say then"
-Yesterday Sony Corporation announced it is expecting to layoff thousands of workers this holiday season and thousand more come early next quarter.
"Liar"
-said don't know
or yet again
"You're only studying that because you're into Asian Chicks"
- really
"Why else would you devote so much time"
- learning
"Just admit it"
-yes
"see you prefer the Asian Chicks"
-prefer?
"Yeah"
-no preference
"Everyone's gotta have a preference"
-really
" Of course. And you prefer Asian Chicks"
-I do?
"Okay, so what do you prefer?"
-no preference
"So then you like Hispanic women"
-no preference
"You're lying. Common just admit it."
-kay. I like thai.
"See you do like Asians"
-Culturally
"BS"
-Got me
or even worse
"You're only studying that because you want to move to Japan and... (rest omitted; think catholic priest if you want more info)"
- ....mmmkaayyyy.....
"You think they're pets dont you"
-ehhhh?
"say something in Chinese"
-.....
I have an interesting family.
The Discouragement Thread - mentat_kgs - 2008-12-28
Recently some of my family noticed I actually know a lot already, so my mom started to brag about her son speaking Japanese. Well, I must study more so I won't make my mom a lier.
The Discouragement Thread - playadom - 2008-12-28
kazelee Wrote:"You're only studying that because you want to move to Japan and... (rest omitted; think catholic priest if you want more info)"In all honesty, from your style of speech, I'd be led to believe that you're of the age to be targeted by the priests :p
- ....mmmkaayyyy.....
The Discouragement Thread - kazelee - 2008-12-28
Cool.
So where's the bar in this joint?
The Discouragement Thread - igordesu - 2008-12-28
@kazelee: ROFL. That's awesome...
The Discouragement Thread - igordesu - 2008-12-28
This past semester, I did a lot of my kanji studying in the commons at lunch in front of my friends. They thought it was weird for a while, but then they gained respect for me as they watched my journey from 0-ish kanji to 700-ish.
So, the other day, one of my friends (from the lunch table) starts telling me about something that happened between him, one of the other people at the lunch table, and that other person's best friend who is away at a different college and who has studied Japanese the traditional way in school in the past. My friends are all telling that third person about how I know 700 kanji-ish (it's more at this point). She goes off and starts telling them how I'm such an idiot (in much harsher words). "Nobody can do that. Nobody can learn Kanji that fast!"
The encouraging part is that my friends stood up for me. They were like, Sally (fictional name of third person) just because you can't do something or don't have the will power or motivation to do something doesn't mean Dave (<---igordesu) can't do it. I was so shocked. Even though I've explained to them the RTK method and all that, they valued my effort and hard work more. It was so cool. Now I'm just waiting for her to get back from college so I can be like "Prepare to bow before the mere demonstration of a fraction of my kanji skills! Haha, silly mortal!" Just kidding. I really am itching to show off my skills though (although I think she'll be less impressed when she finds I don't know how to use them in context [yet] or the readings).
The Discouragement Thread - playadom - 2008-12-28
kazelee Wrote:Cool.I dunno, but wherever it is, there had better be Asian chicks!
So where's the bar in this joint?
Of course, I don't even consider Japanese girls as a reason, or even a benefit of studying Japanese.
The Discouragement Thread - Tobberoth - 2008-12-28
igordesu Wrote:The encouraging part is that my friends stood up for me. They were like, Sally (fictional name of third person) just because you can't do something or don't have the will power or motivation to do something doesn't mean Dave (<---igordesu) can't do it. I was so shocked. Even though I've explained to them the RTK method and all that, they valued my effort and hard work more. It was so cool. Now I'm just waiting for her to get back from college so I can be like "Prepare to bow before the mere demonstration of a fraction of my kanji skills! Haha, silly mortal!" Just kidding. I really am itching to show off my skills though (although I think she'll be less impressed when she finds I don't know how to use them in context [yet] or the readings).I'm pretty sure she won't be impressed at all, the traditional way of learning kanji is too different. When I had just passed JLPT2 and hadn't done any RtK, I simply laughed when people said they knew 2000 kanji. In my opinion, they didn't and it was hilarious to hear them talk down on traditional schooling because of how slow it was when they in fact couldn't read or work with any of the kanji they "knew". Now I know the benefits of RtK, but I still don't think it's impressive, just smart (How could it be "impressive" when the RtK way of "learning kanji" is MUCH easier and faster?). So yeah, the whole situation was of course a misunderstanding. She thought your friends meant you learned that many kanji in such a short time in the same way she has learned kanji, which is of course not true. Her reaction is completely understandable. Be sure you're ready to explain why you learn kanji the way you do when you meet her so it won't turn into a crappy "this is the right way to learn kanji, yours is the wrong way" etc argument. You seem like a reasonable guy, so I doubt your intention is to brag. Take this chance to make her realize the good parts about RtK, anyone who studies Japanese should IMO complete it.
The Discouragement Thread - bodhisamaya - 2008-12-28
kazelee Wrote:Cool.LOL
So where's the bar in this joint?
The Discouragement Thread - Jeromin - 2008-12-29
I haven't had many objections, probably because my family and friends are all polyglots. But to the question, why Japanese? I answer truthfully: I have a fascination for that culture and great Japanese friends. Besides, to keep my brain sharp as I approach my forties it beats the Nintendo Braintrainer. What I don't mention is the proud (arrogant?) satisfaction I know I'll derive from reading the Yomiuru Shimbun in a coffee shop here in Dublin
J
The Discouragement Thread - igordesu - 2008-12-30
Tobberoth Wrote:Good call. Lol. Yeah, maybe she'll even benefit from RTK.igordesu Wrote:The encouraging part is that my friends stood up for me. They were like, Sally (fictional name of third person) just because you can't do something or don't have the will power or motivation to do something doesn't mean Dave (<---igordesu) can't do it. I was so shocked. Even though I've explained to them the RTK method and all that, they valued my effort and hard work more. It was so cool. Now I'm just waiting for her to get back from college so I can be like "Prepare to bow before the mere demonstration of a fraction of my kanji skills! Haha, silly mortal!" Just kidding. I really am itching to show off my skills though (although I think she'll be less impressed when she finds I don't know how to use them in context [yet] or the readings).I'm pretty sure she won't be impressed at all, the traditional way of learning kanji is too different. When I had just passed JLPT2 and hadn't done any RtK, I simply laughed when people said they knew 2000 kanji. In my opinion, they didn't and it was hilarious to hear them talk down on traditional schooling because of how slow it was when they in fact couldn't read or work with any of the kanji they "knew". Now I know the benefits of RtK, but I still don't think it's impressive, just smart (How could it be "impressive" when the RtK way of "learning kanji" is MUCH easier and faster?). So yeah, the whole situation was of course a misunderstanding. She thought your friends meant you learned that many kanji in such a short time in the same way she has learned kanji, which is of course not true. Her reaction is completely understandable. Be sure you're ready to explain why you learn kanji the way you do when you meet her so it won't turn into a crappy "this is the right way to learn kanji, yours is the wrong way" etc argument. You seem like a reasonable guy, so I doubt your intention is to brag. Take this chance to make her realize the good parts about RtK, anyone who studies Japanese should IMO complete it.
The Discouragement Thread - OrangeNut - 2008-12-30
First of all, hello. I found this site with a bit of Googling, and I have to say, the review system here is pretty awesome.
Okay, back on topic. I'm fortunate in that I haven't really gotten any direct discouragement, but people do look at me strangely when I tell them I'm learning Japanese. I believe it's that they wonder why I'm doing so, but to make it easier for myself, I just tell them it's because I want to learn a second language. (I actually have a bunch of reasons, but it would be a pain to explain them all.)
The Discouragement Thread - oregum - 2008-12-30
Ow, just remembered one.
So I live in Chicago, and I use the public transportation system - planes, trains, buses, and whatnot. So one day I'm on the train, I got my headphones on, rocking, minding my own business, practicing the kanji, when a nice old women starts getting in my grill. Well, actually, she kindly complemented my writing. Words were exchanged. I don't remember which ones though.
Then I inform her that its Japanese not Chinese. It must have been like WW2 all over again because she gave me this look. It was like utter disappointment, fear, hate, and diarrhea all in one. Then she turned around and left me to my rocking, minding my own business, and practicing the kanji.
Anyways, I'd just thought I'd share that with you.
The Discouragement Thread - bodhisamaya - 2008-12-30
oregum Wrote:Ow, just remembered one.I understand her. My step-grandfather will break down into an uncontrollable fit of crying if anyone mentions the war or Japan. There was an elderly woman at the eikaiwa school I taught at in Nara who would tell me ever time I saw her, "Americans bombed my house".
So I live in Chicago, and I use the public transportation system - planes, trains, buses, and whatnot. So one day I'm on the train, I got my headphones on, rocking, minding my own business, practicing the kanji, when a nice old women starts getting in my grill. Well, actually, she kindly complemented my writing. Words were exchanged. I don't remember which ones though.
Then I inform her that its Japanese not Chinese. It must have been like WW2 all over again because she gave me this look. It was like utter disappointment, fear, hate, and diarrhea all in one. Then she turned around and left me to my rocking, minding my own business, and practicing the kanji.
Anyways, I'd just thought I'd share that with you.
The Discouragement Thread - annabel398 - 2008-12-30
oregum Wrote:<snip>A little OT, but something weirder than this happened to me just yesterday. My daughter and I were browsing in a bookstore, when a man came in and walked over to the table of books close to us. He picked up a book I had been looking at a few minutes earlier, a history of an Englishman's obsession with China. He leafed through it for a minute or two and then asked my daughter whether she had read it. I stepped in and said that I hadn't read it but thought it might be good, since I have another book by the same author (Krakatoa, Simon Winchester) and like it.
Then I inform her that its Japanese not Chinese. It must have been like WW2 all over again because she gave me this look. It was like utter disappointment, fear, hate, and diarrhea all in one. <snip>
The man proceeded to open the book directly to the last chapter or possibly an appendix, and read and point out a few sentences about Chinese ICBMs, a Chinese astronaut, and some motto written on a building. "She ought to read this, and every kid her age ought to know about it. If they don't buy the book, they should steal it. And it was Bill Clinton (God have mercy on that worthless piece of trash) who gave missiles to the Chinese, OUR ENEMY! And don't think they aren't!" etc. etc.
It was pretty freaky.
My husband showed up about a minute later and the man left almost immediately. We high-tailed it out of there too, a little unnerved by this weirdo. And as we were in the car telling him about it, he said "Oh, that guy? He was walking up and down in front of the store just now, and then he went back in."
I wonder what his reaction would've been if he'd known I study kanji...?
The Discouragement Thread - kazelee - 2008-12-30
annabel398 Wrote:Wow... So he asked your daughter first, and then ran away when your husband came along... normally I'd just say he was passinate, but that is just... weird...oregum Wrote:<snip>A little OT, but something weirder than this happened to me just yesterday. My daughter and I were browsing in a bookstore, when a man came in and walked over to the table of books close to us. He picked up a book I had been looking at a few minutes earlier, a history of an Englishman's obsession with China. He leafed through it for a minute or two and then asked my daughter whether she had read it. I stepped in and said that I hadn't read it but thought it might be good, since I have another book by the same author (Krakatoa, Simon Winchester) and like it.
Then I inform her that its Japanese not Chinese. It must have been like WW2 all over again because she gave me this look. It was like utter disappointment, fear, hate, and diarrhea all in one. <snip>
The man proceeded to open the book directly to the last chapter or possibly an appendix, and read and point out a few sentences about Chinese ICBMs, a Chinese astronaut, and some motto written on a building. "She ought to read this, and every kid her age ought to know about it. If they don't buy the book, they should steal it. And it was Bill Clinton (God have mercy on that worthless piece of trash) who gave missiles to the Chinese, OUR ENEMY! And don't think they aren't!" etc. etc.
It was pretty freaky.
My husband showed up about a minute later and the man left almost immediately. We high-tailed it out of there too, a little unnerved by this weirdo. And as we were in the car telling him about it, he said "Oh, that guy? He was walking up and down in front of the store just now, and then he went back in."
I wonder what his reaction would've been if he'd known I study kanji...?
The Discouragement Thread - gyuujuice - 2009-01-23
Awesome idea for a topic!
1) "You can't read\speak that, you're only pretending."
2) "You can never learn to write in it."
3) "You're going to fail, even Japanese people struggle to learn Japanese."
4) (not entirely related but...) "Manga is pronounced MAENG (with long A) A (as in dad).
"You know nothing about Japanese"
5) "Oh you're not faking?"
6) "You can't learn two languages at once. You WILL FAIL."
(Mandarin and Japanese)
The Discouragement Thread - gyuujuice - 2009-01-23
(sorry double post)
7) "Japanese people are evil and too weird. Why do you want to betry your country, traitor."
I'm not unpatriotic. >.>