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want to go "sentence mining" but not yet completed RTK1 - palmaris_longus - 2008-07-31
I've been wondering if it's O.K to start sentence mining despite not having finished RTK1 yet. What do you guys think? I'm now at 400+ through Heisigh
want to go "sentence mining" but not yet completed RTK1 - chamcham - 2008-07-31
You can do whatever you want. As long as you're comfortable.
IMHO, time spent sentence mining is time that you could've used to study Heisig.
want to go "sentence mining" but not yet completed RTK1 - The_Dude - 2008-07-31
This is something I've been wondering as well. It being summer vacation, I'm willing to put forth many hours of study a day, but I feel there's only so much RTK that can be considered useful in a day. I'm pushing the limits at over 100 kanji a day, and I sometimes finish those by noonish. Then I sit around all day wishing there was something ELSE I could learn. Readings would be great, and I think learning them for the kanji I already know would just reinforce what I learned previously. Basically, I need to incorporate another method besides RTK...
want to go "sentence mining" but not yet completed RTK1 - Zarxrax - 2008-07-31
A lot of people say you shouldn't do other stuff while doing heisig, because the idea is that you want to finish heisig as fast as you can, so time spent doing other stuff is time that could go towards heisig.
However, I never really cared for that idea. I say set a goal for heisig every day, and once you meet that goal, study whatever else you want to study. Heisig does need to be your #1 priority each day though.
want to go "sentence mining" but not yet completed RTK1 - Savara - 2008-07-31
I started with sentences and readings before starting RTK
... But I only seriously started doing sentences after I reached 700~800 words and could read 250~300 kanji (I 'knew' or could recognize 500~600 kanji by then, but could only actually read 250~300). I did that for some months before giving RTK a try.Learning new reading is much easier now (after finishing RTK) because I don't confuse similar looking kanji ... that often. I still do at times xD When I'm tired or just want to go too fast.
Just try to learn sentences that use kanji you A) see *a lot* (私 or 人 or whatever) and B) the kanji you've 'learned' through RTK... And I think you should be fine ^_^ (Or throw in a few (just a few) kanji you 'don't' know at all, and see how big the difference is...)
want to go "sentence mining" but not yet completed RTK1 - cescoz - 2008-07-31
You are free to do whatever you want because there's no "rules" to respect in learning a language.
The point is that,at least for me,the good of sentences mining is take something that you like,that interest you,especially at the beginning,but this can't be done knowing 500 kanji or,however is more difficult.
I thought to concentrate on sentences when I was at 1000 kanji or so through heisig for the boring of the book,but then I started to study it in a more serious way.
Now I'm at 1950 and tomorrow or the day after tomorrow I'll finish this book.
After this even if I'll review for a long long time kanji I will be concentrated only on sentences and,really,not have that brick near me is super motivating (^^)
Anyway do what you like,this is the way to succeed
want to go "sentence mining" but not yet completed RTK1 - chamcham - 2008-07-31
Zarxrax Wrote:However, I never really cared for that idea. I say set a goal for heisig every day, and once you meet that goal, study whatever else you want to study. Heisig does need to be your #1 priority each day though.Definitely agree with this. Although you're free to do whatever you like.
Also I think, Heisig is more about patience and perseverance than speed. Whether or not you finish Heisig in one month or one year doesn't make a difference.
Keep in mind that some people spend their whole lives studying kanji and never get anywhere.
So the fact that it's possible to study all Joyo kanji in less than a year is truly amazing.
want to go "sentence mining" but not yet completed RTK1 - palmaris_longus - 2008-07-31
Thanks for the reply guys.
Anyway, I'm concerned about how learning kanji from sentence will affect my RTK1 study. My guess is it will give a bad effect since I tend to underestimate kanji characters when I see them for the first time in Heisigh but I've seen them numerous times in sentences. It might hurt the story building process and make it more difficult to memorize for a long run. Just like when I learn Kanji for "in front" which is a very common Kanji. I tend to remember it visually, instead of building it up from its story. Yet again, either way (with story or visually) this common Kanji eventually pass the review process.
Nevertheless, starting sentence mining is very tempting. But, maybe I should focus on heisigh first....
want to go "sentence mining" but not yet completed RTK1 - Dragg - 2008-07-31
@palmaris
Yes, mining for kanji-heavy sentences might pose some problems particularly if you are still fairly new to RTK 1. It would also somewhat defeat the purpose of the Leitner system that this site uses if you end up seeing the kanji in readings elsewhere before their scheduled due date here.
Perhaps you could mine from very simple children's books or some other source that is very light on kanji. That way you can get into the flow of sentences and pick up some grammar along the way without getting overwhelmed with kanji.
Personally, I didn't mine sentences early on because I was busy doing Pimsleur on the side.
want to go "sentence mining" but not yet completed RTK1 - alantin - 2008-07-31
400 kanji is still very few.
I tried the sentences when I was around 500-600ish and it quickly turned out that I simply didn't know enough kanji to pick any sentences that liked. I tried but having over 2/3 of the kanji being unfamiliar wasn't very motivating.
I have now finished the book and I still encounter lot's of characters that I have never seen before although the 2042 makes it quite few and far apart.
Even some pretty common aren't covered in the first book! ( " 誰 " anyone! )
It took me two years to finish the book and in the between I mostly studied grammar, listened to speach in television shows, watched anime, etc. and actually became quite good at listening comprehension. Now it is nice to consentrate on building vocabulary through sentences.
But yeah. I agree with the others. Do whatever whatever works for you.
EDIT:
Quote:It would also somewhat defeat the purpose of the Leitner system that this site uses if you end up seeing the kanji in readings elsewhere before their scheduled due date here.I don't really buy this. Repetation is what makes masters and using a kanji in context only serves to reinforce the memory.
Studying characters just to scedule it further and further into the futurure and avoiding seeing anywhere in the between doesn't sound very good to me..
The sceduling makes sure that you see it before you forget it even if you didn't encounter it IRL. Learning them to be able to use them is the point!
want to go "sentence mining" but not yet completed RTK1 - The_Dude - 2008-07-31
If I were to start Pimsleur now, and complete it within a month or two, would I have a good enough grasp on grammar and the language in general to start using sentences?
Edit: I agree with the edited comment above. I believe the scheduled cards are reviewed when they are for maximum efficiency, not quality. He made the system for learning large amounts of knowledge with the fewest reviews possible. It's my opinion that reviewing a kanji before it comes up in your review stack can only help you, for both long term and short term memory. So if you don't mind the increased time required, and therefor a less efficient method, you are much better off. Just remember that the cards are scheduled for a minimum guideline, not maximum. It's so you review it AT LEAST that often.
want to go "sentence mining" but not yet completed RTK1 - Dragg - 2008-07-31
@ alantin
I'm not a hardcore Leitner fanboy so I dont want to misrepresent his ideas. However, based on my scarce indirect knowledge, I think his theory involves the belief that over-exposure of subject matter, in this case kanji, in the early stages of learning causes the newly learned info to get stuck in short term memory. So I think the point of SRS is basically a loophole method devised to optimally enchance learning through limited exposure.
Obviously, once the info is stored within long-term memory, unrestrained exposure can only be beneficial. That's why a person who is still new to RTK should probably consider holding off on kanji-heavy sentences.
want to go "sentence mining" but not yet completed RTK1 - chamcham - 2008-07-31
IMHO, I think that reviewing kanji is actually MORE important than learning new kanji.
So don't half-ass reviews just so that you can increase the number of new kanji you'll learn that day. It will haunt you in the long run when you're forced to re-learn that kanji again.
I think an advantage of only doing 20-25 kanji per day(instead of 50-100) is that
a)you have more time to review kanji
b)your review/failed piles won't get to the point where it'll bog you down
So in any way, going slower may help you out better in the long run.
But people are people and will do whatever they want.
So just figure out what works best for you.
want to go "sentence mining" but not yet completed RTK1 - Dragg - 2008-07-31
@ The_Dude
Yes, Pimsleur should give you enough of a grasp to begin mining basic sentences. You still won't be able to read very much, but you will understand enough to be able to select the sentences that will benefit you the most at your stage of learning.
People say that Understanding Basic Japanese Grammar is good for beginners so you might want to consider it as a source.
want to go "sentence mining" but not yet completed RTK1 - The_Dude - 2008-07-31
So what you're saying I need to do before I can learn to read is... learn to learn... to read?
Bollocks!
Japanese sure is fun.
...
want to go "sentence mining" but not yet completed RTK1 - HerrPetersen - 2008-07-31
I also think that "sentence mining" could start before finishing RTK1. I have finished it now, so for me there is pretty much no point in working in this direction, but I could imagine RTK starters to join a group, creating a spreadsheet with possible sentences up to frame no. soandso. If one had a very large list of sentences one could run some kind of database hack on it, that sorts the sentences according to frame number.
Of course this would take away the "by context" part away from learning sentences in context, but still one would have example sentences for a lot of kanji.
want to go "sentence mining" but not yet completed RTK1 - The_Dude - 2008-07-31
Should it even be called "sentences in context?" I thought the entire point was to learn the words in the context of a sentence... So it doesn't really matter if the sentences are out of context, because the words would be in some sort of context.
want to go "sentence mining" but not yet completed RTK1 - Dragg - 2008-07-31
I'm sorry but it looks like I wrongly attributed some of my earlier points to Leitner. Actually, the idea about too much exposure during the early learning phase being counterproductive is the result of several memory studies done in the '60s, '70s, and '80s. I just found this in an article on the Supermemo site by typing "spaced repetition learning research" into google. Its the first one that pops up if anybody is interested.
Apparently, it was considered to be some kind of breakthrough at the time because the idea of "less is more" is fairly non-intuitive after all. Again, this idea seems only to be true during the beginning stages. You definitely dont want to forever keep pushing your exposure back.
want to go "sentence mining" but not yet completed RTK1 - Dragg - 2008-07-31
@ The_Dude
Japanese is one of the few languages I've encountered that is often purposely ambiguous when properly spoken. If we are talking about English, then yes, most sentences are self-contained and make perfect sense even when not surrounded by other sentences. The Japanese, on the other hand, are often fond of omitting a lot of what an English stickler would consider important info. For example, in most of my posts I use the word "I" quite frequently. In Japan, if you say "watashi" over and over again it sounds distinctly unnatural.
I'm not saying that mining Japanese sentences is useless because of the context issue. But you do have to be more selective than in English.
want to go "sentence mining" but not yet completed RTK1 - plumage - 2008-07-31
I haven't tried, but it seems unnecessarily hard to sentence mine before finishing RTK, and things that are that difficult tend to sap motivation, and motivation is key for learning a new language. I'm looking forward to that stage as I finish or approach finishing RTK1, but can't imagine trying it now. Time-sink and knowledge that doesn't seem like it'd stick off the bat.
I do do vocab and grammar stuff already, since it doesn't rely on kanji. Although I can already apply certain kanji to vocab I know and SRS them that way.
want to go "sentence mining" but not yet completed RTK1 - QuackingShoe - 2008-07-31
The_Dude Wrote:Just remember that the cards are scheduled for a minimum guideline, not maximum. It's so you review it AT LEAST that often.No, it isn't. Read the article Dragg mentioned for information on what it's actually about.
That said, the idea of overexposure has always rubbed me the wrong way in regards to reading outside of reviews. If reading poses such a huge danger of exposing you to specific kanji constantly and ruining your transition to long-term memory, it's also showing up so constantly that it's *always* in your short term memory and it really doesn't matter. Further, reading drills you kanji to keyword (if that), not keyword to kanji, so the exposure is different in the first place.
THAT being said, it is pretty hard to read a text without running into kanji you don't know constantly until you're at least 3/4ths of the way through, which can make mining lackluster. And for me, personally, SRSing sentences on top of SRSing kanji on top of learning NEW kanji would have destroyed my mind. Neither of those things should keep you from READING, but the SRSing... eh.
want to go "sentence mining" but not yet completed RTK1 - alyks - 2008-07-31
The_Dude Wrote:So what you're saying I need to do before I can learn to read is... learn to learn... to read?I'm not exactly sure what context you're saying this under, but I would like say learning all the kanji first is like learning the alphabet, and is necessary to effectively learn from sentences.
Bollocks!
Japanese sure is fun.
...
want to go "sentence mining" but not yet completed RTK1 - palmaris_longus - 2008-07-31
QuackingShoe Wrote:That said, the idea of overexposure has always rubbed me the wrong way in regards to reading outside of reviews. If reading poses such a huge danger of exposing you to specific kanji constantly and ruining your transition to long-term memory, it's also showing up so constantly that it's *always* in your short term memory and it really doesn't matter. Further, reading drills you kanji to keyword (if that), not keyword to kanji, so the exposure is different in the first placeyea. since starting heisigh method, I've been pretty hesitant to encounter new Kanji outside RTK. So, in a nutshell, It's okay to get overexposure, right!
want to go "sentence mining" but not yet completed RTK1 - erlog - 2008-07-31
It would be silly and defeat the purpose to not try to apply your Heisig knowledge outside of Heisig. Ideally Heisig would be used in conjunction with other Japanese study, in my opinion. Doing Heisig everyday doesn't take up that much time, and you can work through it in a few months. The few months you spend only recognizing 1/4, half, or 3/4 of the kanji aren't really that big of the deal. In the long term you'll just have studied some kanji for a few months while you also kept on your path of actually learning the language.
This business of, for some reason, having to halt all other language learning except for Heisig is a bizarre notion. Random reinforcement of kanji outside of Heisig has actually helped cement many kanji into long-term memory for me.
I'm not sure Heisig ever said to halt other language study. I think he mostly just cautioned against reviewing cards in the Leitner system too early, and rushing them forward because that was not productive. Doing actual other language study, not RTK flashcards, will, of course, only help you.
want to go "sentence mining" but not yet completed RTK1 - Mcjon01 - 2008-07-31
I'm pretty sure that Heisig had no concept of Leitner-style systems when he created RTK. Even if he did, he makes no mention of it in the book, so there's no way he could warn people against using it improperly.
What he warns against specifically is using his method as concurrently with or as a supplement to traditional kanji study, as it is counterproductive in the long run.