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+--- Thread: Pitch accent (/thread-1650.html)
Pitch accent - furrykef - 2008-07-19
mentat_kgs Wrote:You should separate your spanish learning from your japanese learning.Why not? Pitch accent is exactly like stress except:
You can't compare learning japanese with spanish.
* It is not marked in the standard written language (big deal, I'll just mark it myself)
* Accented syllables are not pronounced louder or longer (that has nothing to do with knowing where accents belong)
* There is a lot of regional variation (not a problem unless you try absorbing it through only the spoken word)
* The two languages do not follow the same pitch contours, so listening and paying attention to pitch accent sounds is required (I've already got that covered)
I guess you could add that up to "pitch accent is nothing like stress", but I don't. The basic problem of knowing where accents belong is the same in both languages.
Mcjon01 Wrote:but how could attempting to produce the sound of a spoken language through nothing more than accent markings and a list of rules*applies head to desk*
I don't want to be rude, but I'm tired of people not listening to what I'm actually saying. I have explicitly stated, several times now, that I am not trying to reproduce the sound of pitch accent through the written word alone, nor am I trying to memorize a list of rules by rote. Please pay attention.
- Kef
Pitch accent - Mcjon01 - 2008-07-19
That's cool. I'm still right, though. Refusing exposure to Japanese media, at any level for any reason is silly.
Pitch accent - furrykef - 2008-07-19
What about not having time? What about having other priorities?
*sigh* I'm sick of arguing. Just forget the whole thing...
Pitch accent - Mcjon01 - 2008-07-19
Not having time is a fair excuse, as are other priorities. It's not like everyone has to treat language learning like a madcap race to the finish, at the expense of having a life. You have to understand, though, that until now the only information you'd given on the subject is that you felt it wouldn't help you any, which is preposterous.
Pitch accent - Ryuujin27 - 2008-07-20
furrykef Wrote:What about not having time? What about having other priorities?How about take the time you would be using to study pitch accents and listen/watch some Japanese media?
*sigh* I'm sick of arguing. Just forget the whole thing...
Pitch accent - QuackingShoe - 2008-07-20
You guys are way too concerned about how one guy studies.
Pitch accent - furrykef - 2008-07-20
Ryuujin27 Wrote:How about take the time you would be using to study pitch accents and listen/watch some Japanese media?You must think I study pitch accent on hours on end or something... I don't get why people seem to think it'd soak up all this time.
Probably more time-consuming than actually learning pitch accent is finding the information, and that wouldn't be so time-consuming if people would just give information instead of taking an "oh, you don't need that" attitude.
- Kef
Pitch accent - alyks - 2008-07-20
It's not that we won't give you information, but rather that there is no information. Seriously, all the people I've talked to about a Japanese accent (I've looked myself) have all agreed that it's something you pick up and imitate.
I mean, just what exactly are you looking for? If it's a "how-to"/general set of rules/whatever, there probably is none. Try a Japanese speech therapist.
Pitch accent - furrykef - 2008-07-20
alyks Wrote:It's not that we won't give you information, but rather that there is no information.Oh, I know. I probably already got all the information I'm going to get here, but people insisted on arguing, and I can't resist a good argument...
It's more of the general attitude that bothers me. Nobody wants to make any resources because they don't think they're important, and it really baffles me why they don't.
Quote:Seriously, all the people I've talked to about a Japanese accent (I've looked myself) have all agreed that it's something you pick up and imitate.And I still think the idea that you "have" to do it that way is silly.
Quote:I mean, just what exactly are you looking for? If it's a "how-to"/general set of rules/whatever, there probably is none.Of course there is. English stress follows rules. Why wouldn't Japanese pitch accent?
- Kef
Pitch accent - erlog - 2008-07-20
I think you're spoiled by techniques like RTK. Not everything in language has a good system for short-circuiting the learning process. In terms of learning how to speak there is no substitute for listening to Japanese and actually speaking. If there were, we'd be using it, and whoever invented it would become a millionaire.
Also, knowing where/what to accent is different from actually being able to do it with your vocal chords. That kind of thing takes practice, like learning how to play jazz. You can come up with all the rules you like for improvisational jazz and put together awesome stuff on paper, but you're forgetting the part where you actually have to practice playing the instrument.
Just like jazz, all languages have a tone and rhythm that speakers must be acclimated to. You can't acclimate yourself with it by reading a book.
Pitch accent - alyks - 2008-07-20
That idea that you "have" to do it that way is for lack of better option.
Doing a search on English stress rules, I have agree that there will be equivalent in Japanese. But can you find any in English? Doubt it.
Fine whatever. Try it your way. There's no rule saying you can't try something new. But you're still not clear on what you want. You told us you don't want to learn the accent through learning the rules. But then you get all pissed off because we're not giving you what you want, whatever that may be.
Pitch accent - furrykef - 2008-07-20
erlog Wrote:Not everything in language has a good system for short-circuiting the learning process. In terms of learning how to speak there is no substitute for listening to Japanese and actually speaking.I'd like to repeat my argument that pitch accent isn't terribly different from stress accent, and having written accents has helped me a ton with Spanish. Tell me, what is so different about Japanese that it would not work? Nobody has offered anything beyond "Japanese is not Spanish", which I find to be a rather vacuous argument.
erlog Wrote:If there were, we'd be using it, and whomever invented it would become a millionaire.Just a little note: it's "whoever", not "whomever". You have a subject pronoun there, not an object pronoun.
- Kef
Pitch accent - woodwojr - 2008-07-20
Serious question, erlog, how much money do you think RtK brings in a year in sales?
(Though now that I reread your comment, you said "how to speak" rather than limiting it to pitch, which might actually generate millions)
~J
Pitch accent - furrykef - 2008-07-20
alyks Wrote:You told us you don't want to learn the accent through learning the rules. But then you get all pissed off because we're not giving you what you want, whatever that may be.I said I didn't want to do it solely through rules. That doesn't mean I don't want to have access to them. I want to be able to take any reasonable sentence and correctly figure out where the accents go.
I'm not pissed off that I'm not getting what I want. I'm mostly annoyed that I'm apparently the only guy in the world who thinks this is important. It's nothing personal, of course.
- Kef
Pitch accent - Mcjon01 - 2008-07-20
But I thought "Only Sane Man" situations were supposed to be funny, not annoying. That's what the television taught me.
Pitch accent - erlog - 2008-07-20
furrykef Wrote:I'm mostly annoyed that I'm apparently the only guy in the world who thinks this is important.Maybe you should take this as a clue because it seems like there's a lot of people in this thread(who might know more Japanese than you) telling you it's not important or that you're going about it the wrong way.
It's clear that you don't want any actual advice or guidance. If you did, you wouldn't be arguing with everybody about this.
Pitch accent - alyks - 2008-07-20
Listen, I share your sentiment. I also am concerned about a proper accent. But I have been having success using the classic imitate/listen method. What your looking for seems very difficult.
You've probably already seen these, just a basic google search:
http://everything2.com/e2node/Japanese%2520accent
http://www.blueseapress.com/accent.html
http://everything2.com/e2node/Pitch%2520accent%2520in%2520the%2520Japanese%2520language
There are of course dictionaries that will probably give an overview and provide accent as well:
http://www.sasugabooks.com/product_info.php?manufacturers_id=531&products_id=33411
On the internet, I cannot find many resources. Looking in books will probably be your best bet. Dictionaries, phrasebooks, etc. Baron's "Japanese at a glance" has extensive pronunciation guidelines for it's phrases, but no rules.
Pitch accent - johnzep - 2008-07-20
I would say:
1) Find a general over view about pitch accent with some example and basic rules, and read it.
2) Then try to listen and imitate Japanese you hear...be cognizant of pitch accent but don't stress too much. And remember 80% of words are "unstressed", so get that pattern down first and try to catch stressed words as best you can.
3) Use a dictionary or something if you have a question about a specific word (or if possible ask a native speaker). This might be specially good for when you learn a word you know has a homophone, but you don't want to wait for someone to say "今、居間にいます" to distinguish the pitch.
If the two extremes are, on one hand, saying "learn pitch accent for every new word from a text or dictionary", and on the other, saying "don't worry about it, you'll pick it up via osmosis just by listening"...then I think something in the middle is reasonable.
Pitch accent - Nukemarine - 2008-07-20
Couldn't there be some program that analyzes dialogue and auto generates your stress symbols? That way, you could then get the results put in your own version of Anki flashcards. Akin to those of us generating TTS audio for our flashcards.
Granted, I don't know if such a program exists.
Pitch accent - AlexandreC - 2011-01-07
Furrykef, I'm ages late, but I have the answer to your MIsete question.
First of all, I entirely share your point of view on the pitch; I've felt the same frustrations, and finally decided to find the rules out for myself. Perhaps 2 years down the road, you've stopped caring, I don't know...
Now, to the answer:
Verb endings have their own pitch patterns. They have 2 patterns -- one for accentless verbs and one for accented verbs.
The -te ending is a 0/-3 morpheme, meaning that on a verb that is accentless, there remains no accent, and on a verb that is accented, such as taBEru or miSEru, you'll get a downfall (move from high to low) occur on the 3rd mora from the end, yielding TAbete and MIsete. This is even true of words that have a downfall on the 4th mora -- the -te ending will make the downfall come on the 3rd mora from the end.
Pitch accent - buonaparte - 2011-01-07
Japanese pronunciation, pitch accent included.
PRONUNCIATION:
buonaparte's audio and text links
http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?tid=6840
http://www.nhk.or.jp/strl/open2002/tenji/id34/34index.html
http://rutracker.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1238557
http://akusento.narod.ru/akusento.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_phonology
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_pitch_accent
http://sp.cis.iwate-u.ac.jp/sp/lesson/j/doc/accent.html
http://www.coelang.tufs.ac.jp/english/modules/en/pmod/practical/contents/01-01-01.html
http://japanese.human.metro-u.ac.jp/mic-j/accent/index.html
http://japanese.human.metro-u.ac.jp/mic-j/kitekitte/china/index.html
http://accent.u-biq.org/english.html
http://www.japanesepod101.com (line-by-line audio)
Dictionary with audio:
http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~jwb/cgi-bin/wwwjdic.cgi?1C
http://www.saiga-jp.com/kanji_dictionary.html
Charles Inouye - Pronounce It Perfectly in Japanese
http://rutracker.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3131530
Introduction to Japanese Pronunciation. Theory and Practice
http://rutracker.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1419029
In Polish:
Romuald Huszcza, Maho Ikushima, Jan Majewski - Gramatyka japońska tom I
(The best description of Japanese pronunciation.)
Get Japanese Pronunciation Right
http://ideogramme.ca/japan/article/14/get-japanese-pronunciation-right
Unicode Playlists
Pitch accent - AlexandreC - 2011-01-07
Can you be more precise on which of those resources include pitch, otherwise than simply by having audio available?
Pitch accent - easypronunciation - 2014-12-23
You may find useful my Japanese phonetic converter:
http://easypronunciation.com/en/japanese-kanji-to-romaji-converter
Unlike other converters that just add furigana to Japanese text, my converter also displays the pitch accent in Japanese words.
Several options are available for output: furigana, kana, romaji.
I appreciate any feedback!
Pitch accent - yogert909 - 2014-12-23
easypronunciation Wrote:You may find useful my Japanese phonetic converter:Your tool seems to be useful. There a few things that I can think of that would make it even better.
http://easypronunciation.com/en/japanese-kanji-to-romaji-converter
Unlike other converters that just add furigana to Japanese text, my converter also displays the pitch accent in Japanese words.
Several options are available for output: furigana, kana, romaji.
I appreciate any feedback!
1. a written explanation / example about how the different colors indicate pronunciation.
2. an easy way to export/copy text with furigana and pitch accents to import/paste into flashcard apps, websites etc.
Pitch accent - vonPeterhof - 2014-12-24
The idea is great, but I've tried out a few phrases, and the converter seems to fail completely with verbs. 行きます got the き marked as accented rather than the ま, and 行かなかった became accentless, even though the な should be accented. I realize that there aren't many resources on pitch accent in conjugated forms of verbs (this dictionary here is the only one I'm aware of, and its vocabulary size isn't that great), but the converter even gets some of the unconjugated forms wrong (e.g. 分かる).