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+--- Thread: RTK2 'pure groups' - signal primitive 白 (/thread-1592.html)
RTK2 'pure groups' - signal primitive 白 - abaddon - 2008-06-23
I recently checked out RTK2 (the 'pure' groups) and the idea of having a signal primitive to signal a single, unique chinese reading for each kanji containing this primitive sounds great.
One of these pure group signal primitives is 白 with as chinese reading ハク (see R-89/94). So, my assumption would then be that all kanji containing the 白 signal primitive would have this reading.
Unfortunately, I encountered the word 練習 (れんしゅう) (R-1044), where obviously the chinese reading of 習 is not the ハク that was expected. Did anyone encounter more of these exceptions for the pure groups? Or is it just that that perhaps Heisig forgot to mention that the signal primitive 白 needs to be in a 'prominent position' such as mentioned R-110 or R-114.
Despite this, the method (at least for the pure groups) sounds interesting and a good investment of the (always limited) resource called 'time'. Has anyone good/bad experiences with learning/applying the pure groups?
RTK2 'pure groups' - signal primitive 白 - QuackingShoe - 2008-06-23
I think you're just going to have to be prepared for loads of exceptions and inconsistencies within the book. I haven't (and don't intend to have) done the book, so I can't give you anything specifically enlightening to this case. But I imagine his construction of 'pure groups' and 'semi-pure groups' and everything else follows largely the same pattern as his creation of primitives. That is to say, they're by convenience. "This group I'm showing you is pure because I didn't put any characters with different readings in it," and not "This group I'm showing you is pure because different readings don't exist." It's only organized the way it is for convenience, I'd imagine. I'd imagine that, should 練習 not be such a convenient 'everyday word,' he would have moved the 白 group into the 'semi-pure,' or whatever, and introduced you to 習 there. So, expect to find different readings later on. But hey, not in that clump group he showed you.
RTK2 'pure groups' - signal primitive 白 - Katsuo - 2008-06-23
RTK1 kanji with 白 that have ON reading "haku": 泊柏迫拍伯舶白
RTK1 kanji with 白 that don't have ON reading "haku": 百的泉皇錦皆激習綿
Can you see the pattern?
RTK2 'pure groups' - signal primitive 白 - abaddon - 2008-06-23
Hmm... yes. I see a pattern there. I think I will check out these pure groups a little bit further. If it is only a matter of positioning, with clear rules, then it should not be a big problem and a big help in getting ON readings for 'free'.
RTK2 'pure groups' - signal primitive 白 - Katsuo - 2008-06-23
For many pure groups there is a clear pattern, though others are not so clear. But they are still useful for learning a large number of ON readings quickly.
RTK2 'pure groups' - signal primitive 白 - laner36 - 2008-06-24
Katsuo Wrote:RTK1 kanji with 白 that have ON reading "haku": 泊柏迫拍伯舶白Sorry, I feel a bit like Watson, but what IS the pattern?
RTK1 kanji with 白 that don't have ON reading "haku": 百的泉皇錦皆激習綿
Can you see the pattern?
RTK2 'pure groups' - signal primitive 白 - Katsuo - 2008-06-24
If 白 fills the right hand side then the reading is "haku", otherwise it isn't.
OK, there is one small exception 迫 where the trailing edge of "road" also reaches the rhs, but you just have to make a mental note of that one.
RTK2 'pure groups' - signal primitive 白 - ファブリス - 2008-06-24
Correct me if I'm wrong I think the general pattern is, the phonetic component does not occupy a dominant position (typically then, NOT the left side), because that would be the position of the "meaning" component (the radical).
In 綿 for example I'd suspect the whole right part (white+towel) could be a phonetic component, but so not the same as 白.
In the case of 習 it's less clear. Two components, I would have guessed the top is the meaning, which seems to be the case, however the bottom doesn't become the phonetic. But perhaps 習 as a whole appear as a phonetic somewhere else? (I'm at work not JWPce at hand
)In 的 "white" would seem to be carrying the meaning, in the dominant position so it's not the phonetic element. That does not mean "bound" is a phonetic. AFAIK, chinese characters have lots of phonetic components but the Japanese only characters don't follow the rules.
As a sidenote, I used to think of all components as chinese radicals but on Wikipedia they have a definition for (chinese)radical where it is only a component acting as the meaning part.
RTK2 'pure groups' - signal primitive 白 - abaddon - 2008-06-24
I'm not sure about that. For example, in 工 (R-114/121) the signal primitive can be both on the left and the right side and still carry the ON reading. With what I have seen up till now (and please correct me if I'm wrong), it would seem that:
i) the presence of the signal primitive marks the ON reading, where it doesn't really matter if it is on the left or right side of the character.
ii) There may be an extra condition for the signal primitive's positioning to mark the ON reading. For example, for 工, Heisig mentions that it must assume a 'prominent position' (i.e., not tucked away in a corner of the character as a minor element). Other example is signal primitive 且 (R-148), where the condition is that the signal primitive must appear on the right, alone.
I will check the above assumptions further, but if these hold, it seems a good deal to learn the RTK2/3 pure groups.
RTK2 'pure groups' - signal primitive 白 - ファブリス - 2008-06-24
Ahh, thanks for pointing that out. I was deriving some information from here (maybe one case is "phonetic-ideographic" and the other "compound ideograph"?). It seems the "signal primitive" comes on the left when it's paired with another one that does not normally appear on the left (such as "saber" and "taskmaster").
"Pure groups" seem useful. But they already end at frame 537 of RtK2. Interestingly if you build groups of kanji based on chinese reading (see example list from kanji chain article), they will include what Heisig called the "exceptions", but you can spot the "signal primitives" when there are any.
RTK2 'pure groups' - signal primitive 白 - abaddon - 2008-06-25
Interesting reference. Reading the description of the 'phonetic-ideographic' type of kanji, it would seem that the pure groups are of this type. Looking again at the 工 example, one could indeed identify element that represents sound (工) and another element that roughly expresses meaning. For example 功 (R-863, kanji meaning: 'achievement'), where the sound is represented by 工 and the 力 ('power') would hint at an 'achievement'.
Taking a 'random draw' in RTK2 (coming to R-734: 唇 'lips'), where 辰 (R-730) carries the sound, this 'phonetic-ideographic' type still seems to hold.
Interesting question would then be when a kanji is member of one of the other five types. Would this be if it doesn't contain a signal primitive?
RTK2 'pure groups' - signal primitive 白 - radical_tyro - 2008-07-06
I'm just starting to apply the pure groups and am getting frustrated. Just in one day of using them, I notice
情 is in the pure group 青精清晴静請情 : セイ, but the reading ジョウ is way more common.
凡 is in the pure group 凡帆 : ハン, but ボン is more common.
化 is in the pure group 化花貨靴 : カ, but ケ is also common.
To quote Heisig on pure groups: "Each time you see this primitive, you can be sure what the Chinese reading will be."
What's the deal?
Edit: To answer my question, I noticed these frames have a cross-reference number in the book. Upon looking up that frame, I found the other readings for these kanji. So, pure does not mean they all share 1 onyomi and you "can be sure" what the reading is. Instead, it means there is at least 1 word that uses that reading. So, perhaps these aren't even that useful for guessing an unknown reading after all...
RTK2 'pure groups' - signal primitive 白 - rich_f - 2008-07-06
Yeah, if you look at the entries for those kanji in the book, you'll see a number somewhere in the middle of the card-- that's an internal cross-reference to the frame where the same kanji shows up again, but with a different reading.
It's not a perfect system by any means, but it has its uses.
RTK2 'pure groups' - signal primitive 白 - alyks - 2008-07-09
radical_tyro Wrote:情 is in the pure group 青精清晴静請情 : セイ, but the reading ジョウ is way more common.You sure about that reading?
RTK2 'pure groups' - signal primitive 白 - rich_f - 2008-07-09
Yes, it's ジョウ as in 情報, which means "information." That word is about as common as dirt. It's also ジョウ in 事情 and 感情, too. It doesn't even show up as anything but ジョウ in KO. But it's okay. It shows up under both readings in RTK2, it's just a lot further on in the book.
RTK2 'pure groups' - signal primitive 白 - alyks - 2008-07-09
My mistake. I thought you meant the entire group was read as ジョウ. I thought you made a typo because they're also pronounced ショウ.