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What methods have you guys been using to learn onyomi? - alyks - 2008-06-25
I'm interested in what methods people have been using to learn the kanji onyomi and how much success they've been having.
These are the methods out there, I believe:
RTK 2. Signal groups, nuff said. The big problem is all the exceptions and heavy use of rote memorization.
Kanjichain. Links all the kanji by onyomi. This works well, but very easily gets long winded and hard to keep track of. What if you want a kanji at the end of the chain for カン? That's 47 kanji you'd have to go through. (Correct me if I'm wrong here, I'm not sure). What if you forget one link in the chain? You could potentially lose a lot. Plus I'm not a big fan of linking together mnemonics.
Kanjitown. Younger brother to kanjichain. Applies using location to remember onyomi with linking together the kanji images learned from RTK1. Some of the disadvantages of kanjichain, but quite a bit easier. I don't like his idea of actually "making" a town you'd have to stitch together though. Maybe other people do this better than I did when I tried.
Learn as you read. This idea is my favorite, but I don't use it. I tend to run away from any form of rote memorization, even if it is easier knowing all the English meanings already. This method does have it's merits, and throwing in compounds makes things difficult. It would be a lot easier if you knew the kanji like an alphabet and knew the onyomi already. Then compounds could be like vocab.
Rote memorization. Nuff said.
Basically what I'd like to know from everybody is doing and how it's going for them.
1. What method do you use?
2. How well is it working out for you?
3. What are the disadvantages and problems you've personally had to put up with?
4. What pace are you going at?
I'm not asking for advice on which would be best for me to use. I already have my own unique method. I'm trying to figure out what methods people use and how they use them. I think it would be good to have people discuss this, since I don't really see too much on this board.
What methods have you guys been using to learn onyomi? - meolox - 2008-06-25
I'm using the learn by vocabulary/reading method, In trinity I've added all the JLPT4+3 vocabulary lists, plus ~1500 words from elsewhere and I'm really noticing an improvement in my ability to identify a reading, but the problem is....it's slow, very slow.
With 2520 words right now I'm only at 35% of onyomi, as I've said the pace is slow, I add maybe 20 words a day, after adding the JLPT4+3 vocab lists I've not made a distinct effort to seek out new words, I just add the ones I find and hear each day.
Problem is I'm finding most of the words I'm adding are made up of kanji for which I already know the onyomi, an entire compound say of 4 kanji scares me if I don't know one. To combat this I usually concentrate on a new character each day and add plenty of compounds containing this character surrounded by other characters I am comfortable with, this seems to cement it into memory after a few reviews.
The problem is huge and difficult, there is no strict point A to B method to learn onyomi, it's like being in the dark I was in before finding RTK.
What methods have you guys been using to learn onyomi? - rich_f - 2008-06-25
I'm using Kanji Odyssey, and doing it sentence-style. It's also slow going, because I've been busy this Summer, so I can't add as many new sentences a day as I want to. (And my laptop died at the WORST time, so I fell behind in Anki, and once that happens, it gets harder to add new cards until you clear the pile, and the pile is big.)
But I'm still learning a lot, and by doing it this way, I pick up both on and kun yomi at the same time in their natural habitat-- a grammatically correct sentence. The books are organized in a way that lets you cover 5 new kanji at a time. The kanji are grouped logically by frequency. So you'll have 5 kanji on the left page, with their on/kun readings and some common vocab, and on the right page, you'll have a list of 12-15 sentences with English translations that use more of the vocab.
So you learn on/kun by seeing different combinations of kanji interacting in a natural environment. And the vocab you pick up is repeated in later sentences to reinforce it.
BUT I would NOT say KO is good for beginners. The sentences are a bit long and difficult, and are better suited to advanced beginners/lower intermediates. Also, early on, a lot of sentences may have as many as 3-4 unknown vocab words in kanji, which can make it difficult to get right in an SRS. The best way I found to combat that is to add extra short sentences with the new vocab in there in isolation in reinforce each one. (Dictionaries are great for this.)
I have a copy of RTK2, but to be honest, I didn't like the idea of learning on-yomi with Heisig's method. I also didn't like his word choices-- and telling me to "find my own," then find my own sentences too is a little silly. It adds a lot of extra work.
The other downside to KO is that there are only sentences for the 1110 most common kanji. For the rest, I'll probably use KiC and Tanuki together in some combo.
The interesting bit is that I'm only on kanji ~175 or so, but according to Anki, I have 600 unique kanji in my deck.
What methods have you guys been using to learn onyomi? - zazen666 - 2008-06-25
rich_f Wrote:The other downside to KO is that there are only sentences for the 1110 most common kanji. For the rest, I'll probably use KiC and Tanuki together in some combo.I keep seeing people say they will KIC use it after finishing KO1 and 2.
I dont own it, but from what I have seen after giving it a quick glance in the book store is that it doesnt contain much that KO doesnt cover. (please correct me if Im wrong).
I really think people are a bit over concerned about the post KO. Having almost finished book one, I am pretty convinced that after finishing book two, the rest of the kanji I can confront as the appear in my readings. I think they are so less frequent that you can just deal with them one-on-one as you come across them (kind of like RTK3 kanji....)
We will see!
What methods have you guys been using to learn onyomi? - abaddon - 2008-06-25
I'm learning kanji readings via a few different methods:
i) learning the kanji readings for words that I already knew. I originally learned these words using the hiragana/katakana. Words come from the excellent text book 'Japanese for Everyone'.
ii) via KO (so via sentences). Haven't really started with it yet.
iii) via RTK2. I'm still investigating the method, but I think I'm ready to learn at least the 'pure groups'.
What methods have you guys been using to learn onyomi? - gibosi - 2008-06-25
I am using RTK2 to learn the onyomi. However, I view this book primarily as a means to learn vocabulary. The book provides one word for each reading. I then try to find at least one more word for each reading. When the book repeats words learned earlier, I try to find at least two more words for the new reading. I am currently working on the mixed groups, around frame 1300, and I have about 2500 words in Twinkle. Yes, it is slow and cumbersome, but my reading ability steadily improves, so I stay with it.
What methods have you guys been using to learn onyomi? - ファブリス - 2008-06-25
meolox Wrote:With 2520 words right now I'm only at 35% of onyomi, as I've said the pace is slow, I add maybe 20 words a day, after adding the JLPT4+3 vocab lists I've not made a distinct effort to seek out new words, I just add the ones I find and hear each day.I have 35% onyomi covered with 981 words (636 of 1792 kanji with ON reading as indicated in Trinity).
Do you add the JLPT vocab lists for learning readings or for passing the JLPT ?
If you are after reading I would recommend not to overwhelm yourself with too many flashcards. It can become addictive to try and "contain" one's knowledge into a flashcard program but the point is to stimulate learning and remembering. The flashcard system will never be a true representation of your knowledge (though SuperMemo author 's opinion might differ
).Anyway, I've found for covering more readings, you can go from the less conventional way with the Onyomi page : pick a group, pick a kanji, pick just one compound that sounds cool or somewhat inspiring or useful. You could leave it at that. If you're curious or you fail the review later, look it up in ALC for example and add a sentence. I've found it to be interesting, like this you come accross grammar or vocabulary you didn't plan for, and it can be just a little challenging enough on regular basis to promote learning. I use Trinity irregularly but the little I've used it in this active way I've found it really helped. I have the feeling that writing japanese emails has been easier since I started doing that. When my mind slows down, I just review sentences for 5 mins to switch my brain back to Japanese
What methods have you guys been using to learn onyomi? - yukamina - 2008-06-25
Methods I've used to deal with On readings in the last year, in order...
-RTK2 , I learned about 900 words with Mnemosyne before I moved on.
-Rote JLPT and other vocab lists added into Mnemosyne(maybe 700 words). I got tired of rote flash cards, and stopped using them, so I've forgotten some words since then. I think I remember the On readings themselves, though. I don't regret using rote, but I don't like using it as a main method.
-Through reading, and writing down all the new words. Even though the words on the lists are isolated, I usually remember the context I found them in. At this point, there's no focus on On-readings. I know the readings of most of the kanji I come across.
-Now I still get the words from reading, but I add them to Trinity. I'm at 1144 words right now.
ファブリス, Do non RTK kanji count towards the total unique kanji count? In a way, I hope it doesn't because some of the words I have in Trinity use obscure kanji that I don't actually know properly(I just recognize it or it shows the kana)
I have 38% of the On readings, but that doesn't include words I knew and never entered.
What methods have you guys been using to learn onyomi? - raseru - 2008-06-25
I'm using my Heisig anki deck. I added 1 popular on-yomi reading (along with kun) to each kanji I learned, then when I finished heisig, I made a new deck of it, reset the progress and made it so the kanji appears first and I guess the reading. What's great about this is similar looking kanji has similar readings, so naturally heigsig has it lined up all perfectly.
What methods have you guys been using to learn onyomi? - ファブリス - 2008-06-25
yukamina Wrote:ファブリス, Do non RTK kanji count towards the total unique kanji count? In a way, I hope it doesn't because some of the words I have in Trinity use obscure kanji that I don't actually know properly(I just recognize it or it shows the kana)Now that you mention it. Actually it does. If the kanji appears in a compound with a regular reading, that is where each kanji separately could be matched to one of its known readings (On or Kun), than that particular kanji with an On reading and appearing in a word in your flashcards, will count towards the total of kanji with one chinese reading known. Since it uses the count of RtK1 kanji with chinese readings as the 100% target, that would be a bug I'll have to fix.
What methods have you guys been using to learn onyomi? - alyks - 2008-06-25
ファブリス Wrote:I have 35% onyomi covered with 981 words (636 of 1792 kanji with ON reading as indicated in Trinity)I actually wasn't aware there were kanji without (thank you, Raseru) onyomi readings. Would it be possible to get a list of these? I've been using the index of RTK2 to memorize by on'yomi, and it doesn't have any kanji on there without on'yomi.
What methods have you guys been using to learn onyomi? - integration - 2008-06-25
meolox wrote:
"I use Trinity irregularly but the little I've used it in this active way I've found it really helped."
I'm a new kanji learner. I started to learn it with Reviewing The Kanji. Now I'm able to recognize the Kanji and how to write them. Because I'm around 600 kanji, I plan to start to study th Onyomi, and It afraid me. So, I'm looking for tools that can help. Unfortunately, I didn't find the link for " TRINITY". Can someone give the link that I can have a look at It?
For now, I plan to buy the DS Light Nintendo with the software Kanjisonomama to celebrate my 700 moji! A friend of mine is using It to verify the onyomi of kanji when he's reading. Because I'm beginner, I can't said a lot, but If something seem to be efficient for me, I'll come back here to write It down. Thanks!
What methods have you guys been using to learn onyomi? - raseru - 2008-06-25
alyks Wrote:I'm guessing you meant onyomi, anyways, they're really rare. They're kanji that Japanese invented themselves, which is why the Chinese reading doesn't exist.ファブリス Wrote:I have 35% onyomi covered with 981 words (636 of 1792 kanji with ON reading as indicated in Trinity)I actually wasn't aware there were kanji without kunyomi readings.
畑枠匂辻栃込笹峠
These are all the ones I found in my anki deck scrolling through (I added readings) but I could have easily skipped some. Also those don't cover all of RTK3, I only have 150 popular ones from RTK3, and I believe the only one I found was 匂
What methods have you guys been using to learn onyomi? - leosmith - 2008-06-25
alyks Wrote:1. What method do you use?a) I started out with what I thought was a really cool way of combining RTK2 and kanjitown. Basically, I went thru RTK2 in order, paying attention to the signal primitives, and creating a story for each character linking it to a location that sounded like the reading. There were only 300 or so locations though, which should have made it easier. After I got to frame 1380, I realized that it was a slow way to memorize the readings, and quit.
b) Then I learned the readings for all my vocabulary, kun and on. This method was much better. I learned my 3000 words in 50 days, and they stuck immediately.
c) Now I just use a variation of b). I read, and learn all the unknown words. I first learn their pronunciation, using lists, and drill them for 4 days. Then I learn their reading, and dump them into my SRS. After a few months, I delete them from my SRS.
Some random comments. Everything we're doing here is preparing us to read. Obviously if we could pick up a book and read it like a native we wouldn't be doing this out of context stuff. I'll take it a step further and say if learning stuff out of context didn't let us get to our goal of reading any faster than just reading itself, we wouldn't do it.
So everyone should be asking themselves if what they are doing is really going to get them to their goal the fastest. Is systematically going through word/sentence lists, designed to hit all the yomi, going to get you reading faster than just practicing reading? It's a question that only you can answer. If you don't know the answer, it might be good to experiment. If you still don't know the answer, it's probably best to err on the side of fun.
alyks Wrote:2. How well is it working out for you?very well, although I'm not learning any new material at this time
alyks Wrote:3. What are the disadvantages and problems you've personally had to put up with?stopping to memorize words is a huge time draw which I'd rather spend reading. Unfortunately, I've found out that I'm terrible at learning words merely from context, so I have no choice in the matter.
alyks Wrote:4. What pace are you going at?I like to fill a page of my notebook every day (24 words). Because of the review involved, to sustain this pace it takes me about 2 hrs.
What methods have you guys been using to learn onyomi? - laner36 - 2008-06-25
leosmith Wrote:So everyone should be asking themselves if what they are doing is really going to get them to their goal the fastest. Is systematically going through word/sentence lists, designed to hit all the yomi, going to get you reading faster than just practicing reading? It's a question that only you can answer. If you don't know the answer, it might be good to experiment. If you still don't know the answer, it's probably best to err on the side of fun.Great point! Thanks for writing this.
What methods have you guys been using to learn onyomi? - ivoSF - 2008-06-25
i use KO, its just right for my level.
i have bought plenty of books but i think this book is the best investment of the 15 euro it costed
i hope that after i finished it i will be ready to understand manga enough to use those as reading excercises
What methods have you guys been using to learn onyomi? - phauna - 2008-06-26
I also use KO. It's high repetition, and most words are really commonly used.
What methods have you guys been using to learn onyomi? - ファブリス - 2008-06-26
integration Wrote:I didn't find the link for " TRINITY". Can someone give the link that I can have a look at It?Triniy *alpha*
What methods have you guys been using to learn onyomi? - Dragg - 2008-06-26
1. What method do you use?
I am mainly reviewing Kanji Odyssey sentences and JLPT vocab lists in an SRS. Now I am also using my Mononoke audio/written Anki deck as well. I occasionally attempt to read parts of a manga or kiddy book to gauge my progress (which is usually at least somewhat disappointing). IMO, repetition through SRS is the best way to go because if you just read books without using one, you usually won't see the words often enough for them to get truly locked into your memory.
2. How well is it working out for you?
As others have said, very slow, but progress is definitely being made. I am close to 10% percent into Kanji Odyssey 2, and it definitely helps you to learn some good vocab, and it will also help you to have a good hunch on the pronunciation of many unknown vocab that you will see in the future. The K.O. series is highly recommendable because it gives you this great on-yomi foundation, but we still have a long way to go afterwards in terms of learning vocab.
I think I would benefit from adding yet another one of the other methods (such as Kanji chains or RTK 2) to my schedule, but on first glance they seem somewhat vague and esoteric, and I am too lazy too figure them out right now.
3&4. What are the disadvantages and problems you've personally had to put up with?
What is your pace?
The slooownesss and threat of burn-out... My pace with K.O. is so much slower than when I did RTK 1. Oftentimes I learn only 20 new sentences a day before I give up. The same feeling of instant gratification is just not there. After RTK 1, I had to adopt a different mindset to keep myself chugging. Its all about keeping your eyes on the prize..
What methods have you guys been using to learn onyomi? - rich_f - 2008-06-26
Yeah, I agree with you about the change in mindset, Dragg. KO isn't as much of an instant gratification thing as RTK is. It's a lot like working out-- long, tough plateaus, followed by bursts of gains, followed by some more plateaus.
And falling behind just absolutely kills you.
I had an especially busy week this week, and now I'm staring at 300 cards before I can review new ones. -_-
Anyway, less posting, more working.
What methods have you guys been using to learn onyomi? - alyks - 2008-06-26
rich_f Wrote:And falling behind just absolutely kills you.I woke up with a couple hundred the other day. Oh man, what a killer. Not to mention I was going through this bad burnout from doing fifty kanji a day, and was going to learn fifty more right after reviewing.
I had an especially busy week this week, and now I'm staring at 300 cards before I can review new ones. -_-
Anyway, less posting, more working.
What methods have you guys been using to learn onyomi? - furrykef - 2008-07-02
Bah, 300 cards is nothing.
I just had 518 cards expire at midnight. I've been doing hundreds of cards per day for a week now (though the past few days it was usually more like 300). This is because I started with 1827 cards -- I'd been doing Heisig for quite a while before joining up here -- and I wanted to get through them as fast as possible. When I was still getting through my "Never Tested" stack, I think the most I did was 700 in one day. My life right now is a big fat kanji quiz!- Kef
What methods have you guys been using to learn onyomi? - uberstuber - 2008-07-02
Sentence method.
Awesome success.
What methods have you guys been using to learn onyomi? - alyks - 2008-07-02
uberstuber Wrote:Sentence method.That's awesome, I'm curious about how well AJATT has been working in contrast to the numerous people who use KO or KIC. (Edit: Clarification. I am aware of AJATT already, furrykef, but thanks anyway.)
Awesome success.
Also, does anybody use any of the mnemonic techniques? There's hardly any info about how well things like kanjitown or chaining work.
What methods have you guys been using to learn onyomi? - rich_f - 2008-07-02
furrykef Wrote:Bah, 300 cards is nothing.300 cards of Heisig is nothing. 300 sentences to go through, half of which you need to write out to some degree, is what I was talking about. It's one of those double-edged swords. You'll learn a lot, but be careful lest you fall on it.
