reading help - Printable Version

reading help - Printable Version

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reading help - DurablePants - 2006-08-29

Hi guys, ive been reading stuff on the reading materials site http://contest.thinkquest.jp/tqj1999/20190/. Its been going pretty good except there are some grammar things that im confused about which makes the passage hard to understand. Ive tried to search for these grammar points online but i can find them

　まず、大きな特徴は、同じ子どもが、いじめられたり、いじめる側になったりすることだ。昔の学校では、「ガキ大将」がいて、彼が絶対的な力を持っていて「いじめ」の中心となり、いじめられるのはクラスのなかの弱い子供だった。ところが、最近ではいつもいじめられる弱い子供も、ほかの子供がいじめられると、いじめる子と一緒になってその子をいじめる場合が多いそうである。それは、もしほかの子供と一緒になっていじめないと、後で自分が再び「いじめ」の対象になる可能性があるからである。つまり、弱い者が又いじめられるのを恐れて、加害者の側に回るわけだ。

this passage that i was reading is from this page http://contest.thinkquest.jp/tqj1999/20190/eng/yomu/yomu18.html

can anyone explain to me what the "となり" in 彼が絶対的な力を持っていて「いじめ」の中心となり means

also in いじめる子と一緒になって, what does になって mean.

i seem to be having trouble understanding all the なる verbs...can anyone help?

also, can anyone recommend any books that will teach me advanced grammar points? ive already gone through all the japanese for busy people and japanese in mangaland 1,2,3 books. thanks

reading help - JimmySeal - 2006-08-29

Naru means "become" in both cases, and a few others throughout the passage. I suggest reading up on it.

reading help - DurablePants - 2006-08-29

i know that naru means become but it doesnt seem to make sense in context

reading help - wrightak - 2006-08-29

なる is quite easy to understand when it's used with adjectives. With い adjectives like 赤い it turns into 赤くなる. To turn red or become red. With な adjectives like 便利, it becomes 便利になる to become convenient. Compare with する which can replace なる in both cases but changing the meaning from something passive to something active. 赤くする means make something red. 便利にする means make it convenient.

So in your example 一緒になる can be thought of in the same way as 便利 above. To become together. They joined the bully.

となる is quite a difficult thing to get the hang of but if you read lots of examples you'll get the meaning. Become is usually a good translation. In this case it means that the bully in question, due to the power he had, became the heart of all bullies, the ultimate bully.

Note that なり is the formal form of なって. Taking the ます off any verb like なります or 書きます, gives you the formal て-form. (If you don't know what the て-form is then I recommend you find yourself an easier passage to read and do some more text book work)

I think that all of the above grammar points can be found in the dictionary of Japanese grammar.

reading help - DurablePants - 2006-08-29

well so can anyone translate that parts of the passage that contains naru? it still doesnt really make sense to me

reading help - wrightak - 2006-08-30

I did translate it but it looks like I wasn't clear enough.

いじめる子と一緒になって means they joined the bully. 子 is child, いじめる子 is a child who bullies. いじめること一緒になる means to join the child who bullies.

彼が絶対的な力を持っていて「いじめ」の中心となり is referencing the part before it. 「ガキ大将」がいて、彼が絶対的な力を持っていて「いじめ」の中心となり　means there will be a leader of the kids (or brats), and this child will definitely become the heart of the bullying due to the power he has. Something along those lines anyway. 「ガキ大将」がいて means there will be a leader of the kids (note that いて is the て-form of いる). 「いじめ」の中心となる means he will become the heart of the bullying. 彼が絶対的な力を持っていて again uses the て-form to express the reason for why this happens, namely that he is certain to have considerable power as the leader.

What sort of level are you at with grammar? Do you understand all of this stuff I'm saying about the て-form or anything else? The passage you're working on is pretty tricky. It's written with long sentences that aren't very concise.

reading help - Piitaa - 2006-08-30

As a related question, what is the difference between になる and となる?

reading help - DurablePants - 2006-08-31

thanks wrightak. i didnt really notice your explanation in your first post oops. Now that you explained the grammar, the meaning of the passage seems really obvious and i feel really stupid lol. It just gets confusing for me sometimes. Even though ive learned those grammar structures before, i couldnt understand them in context because i havnt had that much practice reading harder passages.

i know basically all the grammar in japanese for busy people 1,2, and 3 and im trying to work on JLPT level 2 grammar right now. i have a real loose understanding of about 50% of the grammar constructions for JLPT 2 so far. Im basically just studying myself.

i can read all of the 1-star (easy level) passages on the site pretty easily and some/most 2-star passages. Im trying to improve my reading skills by deliberatly reading the ones that are hard for me. some 2-star and most 3-star passages I have trouble understanding.

i just ordered the 1kyuu/ 2kyuu grammar book from amazon.jp, hopefully that will help. however international shipping takes 25+ days and i payed 15$ shippinh for a 1800yen book Sad

anyways thanks alot Smile

reading help - wrightak - 2006-08-31

Not a problem mate. It sounds like the above passage is quite a good level for you then. The only thing is that I don't think it's that well written. The sentences are quite long and loosely put together with the て-form or the formal version of it. It's quite formal and if you haven't seen much formal written Japanese before then it takes getting used to.

Piitaa: With になる and となる, this comes straight out of Makino and Tsutsui's dictionary of intermediate Japanese Grammar (great reference book),

となる is similar in meaning to になる but is more formal and used exclusively in written language. The key sentence example of となる that they give is:

吉田さんが初代の委員長となった。

Mr. Yoshida has become the first committee chairman.

You can replace となった with になった in this key sentence and the meaning wouldn't change.

However, な adjectives cannot precede となる so

図書館が便利になった cannot have と replacing the に.

reading help - DurablePants - 2006-09-03

I have another translation question

外来語がたくさん入った日本語ほど難しい日本語はない、といってもいいほどである。

i know the first part means like "there is nothing in japanese as difficult as loan-words"

but what does といってもいいほどである。mean???

reading help - Raichu - 2006-09-03

"XXX to itte mo ii hodo desu" means literally "it is the extent to which you can say XXX", or in other words, "you could say XXX".

E.g., Nihonogo wa sekaijuu ichiban muzukashii gengo da to itte mo ii hodo desu = You could say that Japanese is the hardest language in the world.

reading help - DurablePants - 2006-09-03

thanks, i thought it meant something like that but i wasnt sure

reading help - DurablePants - 2006-09-03

btw, raichu, i just visited your website holy crap you are obsessed with pokemon

reading help - Pangolin - 2006-09-03

wrightak Wrote:... this comes straight out of Makino and Tsutsui's dictionary of intermediate Japanese Grammar (great reference book),

Thanks for the recommendation, I see the authors do a 'basic' grammar too, which also seems to be highly recommended. But, ouch, the cost! I've ordered the basic one from Amazon in the US for $50 inc shipping, which is nearly half the UK price. I plan to get the intermediate volume later.

reading help - wrightak - 2006-09-03

Yeah, I find that Japanese text books are rarely cheap. The dictionaries are really good when you encounter grammar that you don't understand or when you want to compare items of grammar that mean similar things. This may sound strange but I'm not sure about how much it helps you, it just makes you feel happier about things that were confusing you. I'm still waiting for the advanced version but I may be waiting for quite a while.

reading help - Pangolin - 2006-09-03

wrightak Wrote:This may sound strange but I'm not sure about how much it helps you, it just makes you feel happier about things that were confusing you.

I think I know what you mean, but I've always been fascinated by grammar, even as a kid (don't I sound exciting?), so I would read these Japanese grammar books for their own sake regardless of how much good they may do my Japanese in practice.

reading help - Raichu - 2006-09-03

DurablePants Wrote:btw, raichu, i just visited your website holy crap you are obsessed with pokemon

Soo itte mo ii hodo desu!

I'm planning on putting up some translations of Japanese Pokemon songs, so I might be asking some questions sooner or later. Some of those lyrics are tough! Feel free to read and comment on the translations I've got up for songs from other anime.

Oh yes, I composed a song in Japanese about Pikachu! You need a midi player (e.g. iTunes, Quicktime or Media Player).