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+--- Thread: All About Particles (Kodansha Book) (/thread-1393.html)
All About Particles (Kodansha Book) - Nukemarine - 2008-05-02
The full title of this book is "All About Particles - A Handbook of Japanese Function Words"
http://www.amazon.com/All-About-Particles-Kodanshas-Childrens/dp/4770027818/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1209729960&sr=8-1
It lists about 70 Japanese particles detailing about 200 functional uses. Each functional use gives two sample sentences on average. That means you have about 640 sample sentences covering you basic Japanese particle needs.
The particles in the book seem organized by common use. The particle is broken down into its variant usage, for most that means 2 though some like "ga" can be 20 variant uses. Each sample sentence comes in Kanji, Romaji and one and sometimes two English translations (if there's a need for a direct translation and a better English wording sentence).
Although I'm not able to coordinate a sentence mining effort (questionable access to Google Groups for the next month), I think this is the perfect choice for the next project. In fact, I think if you're doing the sentence method this is a great first book to start off.
All About Particles (Kodansha Book) - Floatingweed5 - 2008-05-02
I'm in... (yeah, like I'll be finishing 2001KO anytime soon...!)
All About Particles (Kodansha Book) - Floatingweed5 - 2008-05-02
...oh and regarding the kanji/romaji/english thing... It would be very easy to leave out the romaji in the sentence bank and just do kanji/kana/english.
All About Particles (Kodansha Book) - Nukemarine - 2008-05-02
Oh, I just assumed we'd type it as
Particle Number - Kanji Sentence - Kana Sentence - English Translation
Correct, no romaji. The book uses it, but it's easy to just type it in kana. If you're doing a scanner, just enter in all romaji, then goto a romaji to kana convertor website and let it convert it to kana for you.
All About Particles (Kodansha Book) - rich_f - 2008-05-02
You can get the kanji turned into kana just by running it through anki's add cards function. When you dump in a kanji sentence, it provides a kana reading below. (Although sometimes you have to go through and delete extra readings.)
As for AAP, I've already put は and が sections into a spreadsheet as I've been scanning them in. I usually go Kanji/kana/translation/rule discussion.
All About Particles (Kodansha Book) - ghinzdra - 2008-05-02
God bless you nest0r !
I would be curious to know how many people have choosed the dictionary over all the particle.... 9 out of 10 times when it comes to particles all the particle draw all the attention while kodansha has published more thorough (the dictionary) or more acurate (how to make differences between japanese particle from the same author than all the particles) book on the subject . Still a good book though .
Anyway maybe we should do some kind of poll now ....
and in order to reach an agreement we could limit the array of choices to 10 titles among those which are the most frequently asked on the forum
- all the particle appear like one of the obvious choice
-kanji in context is also frequently demanded. (but for this one I know there are some files out there .... I ll try to find and upload them on the google group for those that are interested )
-the manuals (even if I m reluctant to mine that) like JFE, Genki and MNH are the other natural choices .
and as those books are for beginners I think to be fair there should the same kind of manual but for intermediate level on the list
beyond that it s more suggestions than choices
as nestor is also on the dictionary of particles I think it could be included in the list of the poll ...
in a general way I think to be really fair for each kind of topic (kanji ,particles , grammar, casual japanese , etc....) there should be two books so that anyone interested in a subject should not have to choose a book he dislikes
so the list would be something like
-all about the particles
-dictionary of the particle
-kanji in context
- (any other method of kanji)
-genki
- jfe
- mnh
- a book of intermediate grammar
- another book of intermediate grammar
and to the end there can be only one
There are nine books in this list . I d like also to add some book about the daily japanese , the gritty words , the manga ....
It s just a proposition of list for the poll .... If you think there are books missing or you disagree with the idea of a poll it s ok .
Another idea
Among the books advised by khatzu I saw Understanding Basic Japanese Grammar by Koichi NISHIGUCHI [基礎日本語文法教本 西口光一（著）]. Beside very good comments about it (more than 2000 sentences very progressive and which give excellent basis ) Khatzu said his girlfriend put everything in her SRS.... I was wondering if we could nt ask them to provide us the cards (conditionned that we prove the ownership of the book of course).... Nevertheless as they both use old srs I m not sure if it would be easy to do.... you can t tag cards with khatzumemo I think . maybe with supermemo I m not sure . But it s worth the try .
Last idea
as the goal of the AJATT method is to cope with the REAL world I think real docs should be considered : maybe a novel or even subtitles of a movie everyone likes. For the novel soseki is one of the most popular and famous writer and a lot of his text are available out there . We would just need to take those free ebook , cut them into sentences and add the reading....As soseki has written a lot of short novel we could just take a whole text ,format it for a SRS ,put it available and let everyone choose the sentences . There are books like breaking through japenese litterature which even provides note , definition and translation .
for the movie : there are database of japanese movie which would also provide us the kanji . For this one I think Miyazaki movies would be great . I never met someone who is studying japanese and dislikes every and each movie of miyazaki .... most of the time I rather argue about which one is the best
(princess mononoke as far as I m concerned but there are a lot of "sen and chihiro" fan ) .And it s very easy to find accurate japanese subtitles.I m not really into dramas but it could be also applied on very popular drama ...
And of course on anime .
For those one it would n take us as much time as typing a book and as there are standards we could collaborate on that .We could increase the collective srs datas of our group without much effort. What s more considering the media it s quite enjoyable .
All About Particles (Kodansha Book) - rich_f - 2008-05-02
@nest0r
It's not that bad. Actually, if you just set your computer into JP mode, and type out the romaji in kana mode, remembering to hit space to convert the proper kana into kanji, it's not so bad. Just remember-- no spaces in Japanese text, and some of the things she uses, like "-" in "sanji-han" aren't to be typed in. It's not ideal, but it can be done. Do that in the 'add cards' section of anki, and it'll auto-generate the plain hiragana reading. (You'll have to remove the odd homonyms, though, which Anki will put in {}.) Then just copy and paste both into whatever spreadsheet you want to.
The thing is, romaji is just spelled-out kana, with a few variations you'll figure out as you go along. There's a good thread in here somewhere about Japanese text input with more details. Romaji is the Devil's Work for studying, but it has its uses in a pinch.
She doesn't use a lot of obscure kanji, so it's not to hard once you get the hang of it.
Of course, I use a pen scanner, so I'm skipping all of that anyway. >_>a
I have to say, using a scanner/OCR of any kind makes the process an order of
magnitude easier/faster, with fewer errors introduced into the system. Best $300 I spent, even if the manufacturer is flaky, and I probably overpaid by $100. If you are going to scan a lot of books, OCR is probably the way to go.
Oh, and How to tell the difference between Japanese Particles does NOT use plain kana only. It also uses -sentence in full JP/romaji/English translation. But it's still an excellent book.
@ghinz--
JFE has already been converted into an excel spreadsheet. Just check the JFE thread.
There are a lot of good books on particles in general. I've picked up a few over the years, and none of them are terrible. It's more of a matter of how they're organized. AAP is just done particle by particle, which isn't the most effective way to do it, but it IS thorough. I looked at the dictionary of Japanese particles, and it didn't offer any greater advantage that would be worth not using my scanner-- the boxes it uses screw up the scanning. It's a good book, but it's not that good.
HTTTDBJP (lol, great abbreviation there, huh?) groups them by function. Japanese Particle Workbook (which is pretty good, too) groups them by frequency, also a valid way to approach it.
It's kind of a toss-up between the latter two, in my opinion. AAP is nice just as a source of extra sentences, but it really does lack a functional approach that would make learning more meaningful, as does the dictionary. They're both better reference books than a study guides, if you ask me. (Then why the hell have I been scanning AAP? LOL.) Actually, I checked AAP out of the local library and started mining it, but I stopped after a couple of hours when I realized that trying to mine all of the sentences out of it and group them into a more logical fashion was too much work. I went and bought a copy of my own as a reference book, though, because it's good for that.
I still can't decide between the other two books. They're both good. Right now, I'm going to finish UBJG first, then decide later. But if you guys pick one of those two, let me know, and I'll help out.
For the record, I've just been scanning UBJG straight into Anki, so I can't really help you there. UBJG is a good book, if a bit dull and repetitive. I don't tag my cards, so at this point, figuring out which sentences in my deck are from UBJG would be like trying to unscramble an egg.
EDIT:Sorry to post right after myself, but if you wanted skip the novel above, here are my thoughts on the books suggested:
--AAP/Dictionary (discussed that above.) Not in favor of that.
--KIC I'm not at the point where I'm even close to ready for that. Tough for people who want J->E translations, and KIC skips a lot of compound in its sentences.
--Genki -- I tried mining it, and quit after 6 chapters. (It was my old JP text in college.) I'm sure there's material there, but it's probably more trouble than it's worth. Also suffers from "Textbook Syndrome"-- language you'll never use, similar to UBJG, but UBJG is straightforward and easy to mine.
--JFE -- already in a spreadsheet-- see the JFE thread.
--MNH -- never used it, but it's a textbook. Not really a fan of those.
--Dict of Basic/Intermediate J Grammar-- I'd have no idea how to approach the material. Alphabetically? That sounds a little nuts, if you ask me. Great reference books, though, and useful as something to check for answers... *maybe* I could see using a textbook, if you used it as a framework to order the Dict of BJG/IJG with, but without a framework, it's just pile of information.
I'd say if you want my vote, it would be for How to tell the Difference between Japanese Particles, just from a functional point of view. Mine both the example sentences, and the quiz sentences, with the answers filled in. JPW is also a good book, but it may be harder to find that HTTTD.
I'd also recommend UBJG, but I can't help you much there.
The Kodansha Sentence Patterns books would be useful, too. Either one.
(Yes, I have a crapton of books. Kodansha must loooove me.)
All About Particles (Kodansha Book) - rich_f - 2008-05-02
Yeah, it sucks that they don't have furigana on them, but that's how it is. Use the romaji for the the furigana if you have to. Most of the Kodansha books are like that. (If not all.)
But if you're planning on mining a lot of books, then I'd recommend the scanner route. Either a flatbed or a pen-- both have pluses and minuses. Just make sure it can do JP first. (Seriously!)
All About Particles (Kodansha Book) - Transtic - 2008-05-02
If you have trouble with romaji-only sources, you may try using Google documents and Rikai chan. That way you can type the text in kana and look for the most appropriate kanji for each word. If you aren't sure whether that would work or not just give it a try, it won't take you much time and it would be a good option.
All About Particles (Kodansha Book) - ghinzdra - 2008-05-03
Rich_f
I would also cast my ballot for HTMDBJJ....as a matter of fact I did a whole chapter but a couple of days after that I got myself in KO2001 and I was too engrossed into typing this stuff to do a book on particles on top of that....
As you seem to have read quite a lot of them have you read making your japanese flow in the kodansha power book series ? I was disappointed by the reading of dictionnary of patterns but it is said this one is the real stuff.
All About Particles (Kodansha Book) - Nukemarine - 2008-05-03
Obviously my vote goes for AAP for the next project. It should not take long, assuming each volunteer can do 5 or 10 predetermined pages (roughly 30 or 60 sentences).
In addition, other books worth future consideration are "The Handbook of Japanese Verbs" and "The Handbook of Japanese Adjectives and Adverbs". Now, I do like how both are set up. Its by category and not alphabetically. The sample sentences you get depend on how you look at it. The straight out sample sentences are 450 Verbs, 200 Adjectives and 450 Adverbs. However, each book has "Practice Exercises" that pretty much double your sample sentences if you bother with process of getting them into a useful format.
I have Genki, but I don't think it's worth mining. There's actually little in the way of sample sentences in it.
I also have JFE, but as has been said, the heavy work has already been done on it for spreadsheets (and AUDIO!)
KIC I don't think I can help on. I have it, but it's far too advanced for me. Maybe after I'm done with Kodansha and KO2001, KIC will be very doable. For now, it's lack of furigana is a show stopper for me.
Sentences from other sources (books, media, radio, etc.) sounds great. This level I think can be just Kanji and Kana samples. However, if anyone is friends with the SARS fansubs or other group, they MAY have a ready made spreadsheet they're willing to post of their various projects (to include the English translations).
All About Particles (Kodansha Book) - rich_f - 2008-05-03
I would recommend anything by Taeko Kamiya. She really seems to know how to make really good books on understanding Japanese better. She did the Handbook of Adjectives/Adverbs (which I think is awesome), the Handbook of Verbs (also awesome), and she did another sentence pattern book, Japanese Sentence Patterns for Effective Communication, which I think is better than the other book of sentence patterns. She also did Japanese Particle Workbook, which is good, but I don't think it's as good as How to tell the Difference... (we need a decent abbreviation for that.)
JPW has a solid theory behind it, but I like the functional approach better, I think. I'll go ahead and post what I mined already from AAP to the group, in case you guys decide to do that, but I'm more interested in the other particle books because of the way they're done. I know Khatz used AAP, but when he did it, AAP was the only book out there on it, IIRC.
I picked up Making your Japanese Flow when I picked up a few other books the other day. (The Kodansha books pretty cheap these days, anyway, and it made it more efficient to place a larger order and save a little on shipping.) I haven't had much of a chance to look at it yet, so it's hard to say.
The book I picked up that I found the most interesting was the Building Word Power book... it's full of prefixes and suffixes that show up a lot in Japanese. I think as soon as I reach a certain point in KO, I'm going to attack that book. It has a good explanation for each affix, then a bunch of examples, with a sentence for each.
I agree with Nuke about KIC. It's not bad, but it feels a lot more limited than KO. And I'm not comfortable enough yet to use it. When I finally go fully J->J, then I'll probably use it.
And yeah, Genki is a good textbook series, but it's difficult to mine, and probably not worth the trouble. It's good to have as a book full of grammar explanations, though. (But don't go out and buy it just for that.)
I'll admit I'm not so much interested in sentences from other sources yet, because we all have different tastes.
All About Particles (Kodansha Book) - AdamLeliel - 2008-08-07
I hate to bump topics but I thought it'd be more appropriate than starting a new one.
Has this gone forth or has nothing happened with it? I own the book and would be willing to type up some sentences.
All About Particles (Kodansha Book) - shakkun - 2008-08-07
AdamLeliel Wrote:I hate to bump topics but I thought it'd be more appropriate than starting a new one.I was wondering about that too. I have a bunch typed already but to do the rest myself I'd probably scan and OCR it, which would mean cutting off the spine... and I'd rather not deface my book if I don't have to.
Has this gone forth or has nothing happened with it? I own the book and would be willing to type up some sentences.
All About Particles (Kodansha Book) - AdamLeliel - 2008-08-10
Is anyone interested in carrying on with this book?
All About Particles (Kodansha Book) - hagaren199 - 2008-08-18
I'm interested. I bought the book and received it in the mail a few days ago. I wouldn't mind typing up some sentences.
All About Particles (Kodansha Book) - abaddon - 2008-08-19
I'm also interested and have the booklet at home already.
All About Particles (Kodansha Book) - alyks - 2008-08-19
http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=pu8FAjtye0Q6s9QXLlPoYPQ&hl=en
Ok, it's just a little irritating to see you guys talking about doing it and never actually doing it. I started and did は. If you do one, add a sheet and name it appropriately. Because of the whole copyright thing, you have to do the email/invite thing.
All About Particles (Kodansha Book) - AdamLeliel - 2008-08-19
I was about to set it up but then realised I didn't quite know how to set it out. I've requested access (adam at pseudosphere dot net)-- if I need to email someone with proof then I shall.
All About Particles (Kodansha Book) - hagaren199 - 2008-08-19
alyks Wrote:http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=pu8FAjtye0Q6s9QXLlPoYPQ&hl=enI just requested access.
Ok, it's just a little irritating to see you guys talking about doing it and never actually doing it. I started and did は. If you do one, add a sheet and name it appropriately. Because of the whole copyright thing, you have to do the email/invite thing.
As a new member, I'm unfamiliar with the Google Documents system this forum seems to have going for all of its projects. I wouldn't feel right about starting something if I didn't know what to do, especially if it involves other people. Nevertheless, I apologize if it bothered you.
All About Particles (Kodansha Book) - alyks - 2008-08-19
As it stands:
WA - Alyks/done
GA - Alyks
MO - Hagaren199/done
-TE MO (-DE MO) - Hagaren199/done
DE MO - hagaren199/done
TO - AdamLeliel
TO WA - shakkun
YA - Alyks
TO KA - shakkun
NADO
KA - shakkun
DE
NI
E - abaddon
KARA - abaddon
MADE
(not all of the chapters, there are a lot)
http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=pu8FAjtye0Q6s9QXLlPoYPQ&hl=en
Sign up and give me your email/request access. You should all know the drill by now.
All About Particles (Kodansha Book) - hagaren199 - 2008-08-20
I just finished -TE MO (-DE MO).
All About Particles (Kodansha Book) - Savara - 2008-08-20
I just bought the book a few days ago (well, ordered it online, it should be here within a week. Can show you the order info though, if needed) and requested access
Never used the google docs before though, but should be able to figure it out.... I Hope.
All About Particles (Kodansha Book) - shakkun - 2008-08-20
When I figured the project wasn't going forward, I went and scanned and OCR'd the book. I just had to photocopy it first which was surprisingly painless (my scanner has awful depth of field).
Anyway, I have a file now which you can copy and paste the Japanese from. Accuracy has been 100% so far [that was the first section, accuracy declines as I got more tired of photocopying
]. I don't really need a spreadsheet, but I can upload the file tonight for you guys to use.
All About Particles (Kodansha Book) - AdamLeliel - 2008-08-20
Thank you for letting me view the spreadsheet. I'm going to work my way through the book, but backwards.
Edit: Scratch that. Going to do "to".