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textbook help - Kwiateczek - 2016-05-13
I know there's a ton of topics like this already, but honestly, I feel like it's a very individual matter and I still couldn't decide after reading many of them.
Well, here's what I've been doing up until now:
- learnt hiragana, katakana
- active knowledge of 300-500 kanji, passive knowledge of about 1000 kanji in often appearing combinations
- finished Minna no Nihongo Shokyu 1&2
- licked some series like Minna no Nihongo Chukyu (too boring), AIATIJ (the americacentrism nearly drove me crazy), Tobira (pretty good, but I just couldn't stick with it, too much content at once, maybe?), Sou Matome N3 (too much content with little to no context)
- mailing and LINE'ing with my friend from Japan, both in text and via voice calls (not too often, but they tend to last up to two hours), though it's not for language learning and I tend not to think about what I'm saying; he told me that talking with me is fine though my kotobadzukai sucks pretty badly and it often comes out okashii
- recently I finished reading my first novel in Japanese, Banana's Kitchen; it was a great read (with a dictionary), I finished it quickly and enjoyed it just as much as I would if I read it in my native tounge
- now I'm reading "Opening the path" by Konosuke Matsushita; had some problems with the formal grammar, but I looked up "gachi" "tsutsu" and "mai" and I feel like after a few essays, I'm good to go (wiiith a dictionary)
- can watch family-oriented Japanese drama with Japanese subtitles
I'm going to Japan for a month in September. I need to be able to use Japanese, not only understand it. For that, I need a textbook with exercices; my knowledge is just too chaotic and I need to tame it - that's even more important for me than actually expanding it.
Here's what I've been thinking about doing:
- reading Japanese the Manga Way to review all the basic grammar
- maybe going through a grammar workbook? anybody, anything, suggestions?
- completing the "Chukyu wo manabou" series OR the Authentic Japanese series (by series I mean textbook + workbook)
- doing something to fix my keigo and my kotobadzukai, any ideas, pretty please?
- Kanzen Master? not sure if N3 or N2 though...
If anybody has some entirely different recommendations, I'll be even more happy to hear em!
I'd be super duper thankful for some help, been pondering pointlessly forever. Right now I'm taking a break cause of school exams, but halfway through June I'll be ready to go, and I'd like to be all set!
I'll already say this: many thanks go to anybody who read all this, you're great, lol.
I'm just gonna add that I prefer challenging stuff, I feel like trying to bite something a little above my level does me good.
RE: textbook help - Stansfield123 - 2016-05-13
Well, textbooks aren't going to make your kotobadzukai any less okashii, sorry to say. Only immersion will. Especially audio (radio, podcasts) and audio-visual.
From here until September there are 1,600 hours. If you spend a third of them listening to modern, spoken Japanese, you will at the least know what is and what isn't weird. And knowing the difference is the first step towards not sounding weird (the second one involves a lot of practice, which you seem to be doing).
Is Japanese your first foreign language by any chance?
RE: textbook help - RawrPk - 2016-05-14
Based on your listing with finishing Minna no Nihongo 1&2, it should put you about N4 level according to this customer review of the first and second book.
I am also working through Japanese the Manga way for grammar. Despite the romaji, the content is pretty solid. Especially if you have an interest in reading manga (which I do and currently reading しろくまカフェ). Though the negative is that there are no exercises which from what I read, is what you want in a textbook. So maybe just do a quick read if JTMW still peaks your interest.
As for exercises, you can always try the Nihongo Challenge for JLPT N4 Preparation: Grammar & Reading Practice book. Then afterwards you can tackle the N3 Sou Matome grammar or Kanzen Master N3. A great reference source for grammar just in case any grammar points aren't clear is the A Dictionary of (Basic/Intermediate/Advanced) Japanese Grammar series though I'm sure the Basic (Intermediate maybe?) will be enough at this stage.
Finally, I agree with Stansfield123 about getting more listening in. I have terrible listening skills so this is one of those things I work on. Speech is my worst, which isn't really a surprise because I don't ever talk to anyone lol. Hope this helps.
RE: textbook help - Kwiateczek - 2016-05-14
Hi, thanks so much for the answers!
My first foreign language is English, then French, then Japanese.
Immersion plays a big role in my language learning, but what really helps me use any language correctly is exercices.
That's why I'm looking for a good textbook, mainly. As for listening practice, I watch Japanese youtube videos everyday (Hajime Shachou, beauty vloggers). I'd love to find some good podcasts, but I've never really listened to any and don't know how/where to search... Would be very grateful for recommendations!
The Sou Matome series irks the poo out of me. I might try Kanzen Master, but I'm not sure I can afford it right now.
I'll look into the Nihongo Challenge, sound like a good review, thanks
It might be just what I'm looking for in terms of "post - Japanese the Manga way - grammar textbook", haha!
Right now I'm floating somewhere between N4 and N3 (passed mock N3 with a 80% score, can read a novel or watch a drama etc), but my knowledge lacks a solid basis... Just as my English, lolz.
Just to add, right now I'm about halfway through AIATIJ (dropped - americacentrism), finished chapter 5 of Tobira (dropped - a bit too easy in some parts, at the same time too much content at once) and from what I can remember, I almost finished the Minna no Nihongo Chukyu 1, but I think I fell asleep nearing the end and can't really remember.
Textbooks, why u do dis? Or maybe it's me? It's probably just me...
RE: textbook help - mc962 - 2016-05-14
I personally liked Tobira, but I also got the chance to use a bit of J501 (just type that into amazon and you can find it). It has a fair number of grammar points, exercises, etc. that you might find useful, and I think is roughly at the same level as Tobira(中級から上級へ)
I would agree that Tobira can be a bit disorganized with how they present the information, and I feel like J501 did a little bit of a better job at separating the information bits.
If you want a lot of exercises, 日本語文型トレーニング (中級) might be another option. I got the book at a suggestion from a teacher for that exact purpose, although I never really did much with it. But when I last looked it seemed to have a lot of good exercises.
RE: textbook help - RawrPk - 2016-05-14
There is also the 「どんなときどう使う日本語表現文型500」book and workbook, 「どんなときどう使う 日本語表現文型500短文完成練習帳」which is part of the entire どんな時どう使う series. Lots of exercises and all in Japanese.
RE: textbook help - rich_f - 2016-05-14
What helped me the most in learning how to speak in Japanese, was speaking a lot in Japanese. It doesn't matter if you speak to native Japanese or other non-native learners. Just practice making sentences out of words, and communicating coherent thoughts.
So in that vein, I think this might be useful:
https://www.reddit.com/r/LearnJapanese/comments/4jaxx7/we_have_a_discord_voipchat_client_server_for/
From your post, you said you found some of the textbooks boring or too much or otherwise unsatisfactory. One suggestion might be to skim through Tobira, **ignore the content and simply see what grammar it introduces**, and study the grammar from Japanese the Manga Way.
So you use the textbook as a map, or an outline, and get the actual content from something more interesting or that explains it better. Go back to the textbook for some practice exercises if you want, or skip them. Whatever works.
I would also search the /r/LearnJapanese subreddit for interesting alternative ways to learn grammar. Keeping it interesting is the most important part to keeping the momentum going.
RE: textbook help - Kwiateczek - 2016-05-14
Thanks so much for all the recommendations! I'll surely have a look at those books; most of them seem good, so I'll have a tough time deciding! The Donna Toki Dou Tsukau Nihongo series sounds really good; I think it would make a good collab with the ones mentioned in some earlier posts. Maybe it'll help my okashii kotobadzukai!
Speaking, listening and immersion are always important when learning a language; what I'm looking for is a textbook though, cause that's what I need right now. No matter how advanced one is, it can be really helpful, especially if somebody, like me, likes that way of studying. I'm pretty confident when expressing myself in English after a few years of studying (I'd consider myself advanced), but I still don't mind (hell, I love it!) using a textbook from time to time, especially if I want to tackle a specific skill.
I grew up learning languages in the "classic way", and I find that my "conservative" mind doesn't respond well to "alternative" ways of studying, haha. Maybe I should throw in a lil bit of elasticity into the pot, but right now I'm craving a good old textbook with lots of exercices and example sentences to follow from cover to cover <3
RE: textbook help - rich_f - 2016-05-14
One thing to try are drill books. It really depends on your level, You're around N4, so maybe try this to double check your knowledge of the fundamentals:
短期集中初級日本語文法総まとめ20ポイント (ISBN: 978-4-88913-328-8) <-- This book will make sure you have internalized everything you've learned up until now. There's a 中級 version, too, but I'm not a fan of it. It's a little too big and too disorganized.
文法が弱いあなたへ (ISBN: 978-4-89358-513-4) This will find all of your weak spots the first book didn't find, and expose them. Looks easy, but isn't. But it's good that way.
読解をはじめるあなたへ (ISBN: 978-4-89358-665-0) By the same publisher as the previous book, this is good if you want to get better at reading comprehension. (But if you're reading novels and not having any problems, it's safe to skip it... but if you're having problems, check it out.)
Also, the 完全マスター3級文法 book, (the red one, for the OLD JLPT level 3, which is now N4) is a great practice for testing and reviewing everything you should know for the upper beginner level. I used that as my upper beginner level textbook, then moved on to the old 2級文法 book (the old green one, not the new N2 one) for studying intermediate grammar. But I worked with a small group of people and a teacher on that for a year or two.
It may take a few tries to find the book that you like working with the best, but when you find it, you'll know it.
RE: textbook help - SydNRTgo! - 2016-05-15
Has anyone suggested Understanding Basic Japanese Grammar http://www.amazon.com/Understanding-Japanese-Grammar-Nishiguchi-Koichi/dp/475740168X ? Despite the name, it gets quite difficult in the last few chapters and I've found it quite clear when I need to look something up (I haven't read it cover to cover yet, I'm easing myself back into study with JTMW 'cause I like pictures)
RE: textbook help - Kwiateczek - 2016-05-15
Thanks for more tips! Most of the books mentioned in the last posts seem a bit hard to find, but I've added them to my notebook just in case
I'm sure I'll be chasing the Donna Toki Dou Tsukau series all over ebay... Hmmm, what's the difference between the old Kanzen Master and the new one? I mean, except for the breakdown of material.
Is the 2 kyuu any easier then the N2 version? The contents of N3 materials I've skimmed through so far seem mostly "familiar" that is, I wouldn't call them new, but I can't use them actively either. Would skipping towards the 2 kyuu be a reasonable move, after I do the reviewing mentioned below?
As for now, I had a chance to see the "Nihongo Challenge" series in person; it seems that there's nothing new or confusing in any way, so it will be just right for a review together with "Japanese the Manga way". I think I will try and finish it before the holidays start, so when I have school off my back, I'll be able to focus on new stuff without worrying about knowledge-gaps
RE: textbook help - rich_f - 2016-05-15
The main differences between the old and new versions of Kanzen Master are the content (there was no N3 then) and the way the books are laid out. The old books were simpler, with each chapter listing a bunch of grammar points, with multiple choice questions resembling JLPT questions at the end of each chapter, with cumulative groups of questions after groups of chapters, too, and also a final, "overall" exam at the end.
The newer books use a different format--each chapter has a few grammar points, you learn them, then there are exercises at the end of each chapter. That goes on for 20 chapters or so, then you move on to the other parts of the book, where you do more advanced exercises related to the grammar portion of the JLPT.
Generally, in the old books, each chapter had more material to cover. In the newer books, it's more "bite-sized." (15-20 grammar points vs. 4-6) That may make it easier. Also, the newer books tend to group words by relation "All time-related phrases in this chapter," etc., while the old books seemed to do it randomly. I go back and forth over which is better, but I'm starting to think the new way is better, because it forces you to learn how to tell the difference between very similar phrases and their use, but at first it's REALLY confusing.
My experience with the new books has mostly been with the N1 grammar book, not with the N2 or lower books. I used the older versions to learn, and they worked fine for me, but I used them with a teacher in a small group.
In the end, what matters the most is finding a book that you like and can work with, and that makes sense to you.
RE: textbook help - RawrPk - 2016-05-15
(2016-05-15, 6:03 am)Kwiateczek Wrote: Thanks for more tips! Most of the books mentioned in the last posts seem a bit hard to find, but I've added them to my notebook just in case
Hmmm, what's the difference between the old Kanzen Master and the new one? I mean, except for the breakdown of material.
Is the 2 kyuu any easier then the N2 version? The contents of N3 materials I've skimmed through so far seem mostly "familiar" that is, I wouldn't call them new, but I can't use them actively either. Would skipping towards the 2 kyuu be a reasonable move, after I do the reviewing mentioned below?
As for now, I had a chance to see the "Nihongo Challenge" series in person; it seems that there's nothing new or confusing in any way, so it will be just right for a review together with "Japanese the Manga way". I think I will try and finish it before the holidays start, so when I have school off my back, I'll be able to focus on new stuff without worrying about knowledge-gaps
The 200 Donna book is for N5-N4 level. Just wanted to let you know just in case you wanted to skip that one. If you check the link I showed you with all the series books, the 200 book you can preview.
Nihongo challenge was to make sure you have your solid foundation before venturing onto new and bigger things. It was recommended to me since I once again started re-studying Japanese after a long hiatus (took classes 4+ years ago and forgot a lot). Are you buying the entire series of just the grammar and reading?
RE: textbook help - Kwiateczek - 2016-05-15
After some thought, I decided on trying out the Shin Kanzen Master, as it's more easily available
Thank you for specifying the differences!Yeah, I'll probably skip the first book and jump straight into the more advanced ones, but only after I'm done reviewing stuff, so I have some time to look for a cheap way of getting it.
My situation is somewhat similar; I stopped studying about two years ago (my teacher described my knowledge as N3 at that time), and I just started learning again not too long ago. My active knowledge suffered the most... I think that after reviewing the basics with the Nihongo Challenge (I'm thinking about getting both the grammar and the vocab book), this summer I'll focus on relearning the N3 level with drill books from Kanzen Master, and then I'll move onto Authentic Japanese: progressing bla bla bla.
I just got it as a gift and after looking through it briefly, I think that it'll make a good follow up.
I'm making a list of all the textbooks mentioned here, so I can search for them while in Japan, if I still feel a need for them. Thanks everybody!
I'm always open for more recommendations (textbooks, podcasts etc.: I'm having a hard time finding interesting podcasts, and I see people talking about them all the time!).
RE: textbook help - rich_f - 2016-05-16
There's a podcast thread in here somewhere.
I recommend the NHK Radio News as solid listening practice. It's hard at first, but it gets easier over time. Lots of news-y vocab.
http://www.nhk.or.jp/radionews/
There's an RSS feed here:
http://www.nhk.or.jp/r-news/podcast/nhkradionews.xml
Also, TBS Radio has a lot of podcasts, in a lot of different genres. But again, they're going to be native-level and hard to listen to.
http://www.tbsradio.jp/
(I'm getting 503 errors for some reason. Dunno why.)
Anime-related web radio podcasts might be easier to listen to (then again, they might not, depends on your preferences), mainly because the vocab level isn't quite as high.
Japanesepod101.com has a lot of good podcasts, but you have to pay. You could always try their free download feed. It's pretty much the last 2 weeks of podcasts they've released. I'd recommend listening to some of those first, before even thinking about paying for it. If you like the style, it might be worth subscribing, but it you don't, then don't. People either love it or hate it. I found it pretty useful at one point in my learning, but I know a lot of people don't like it.
If you're going to go the YouTube route, do a search for 日本語の森. That's a good YouTube channel for grammar and stuff like that.
RE: textbook help - Kwiateczek - 2016-05-19
Thank you so much!
I've tried Japanese Pod 101 before, but I didn't like it enough to buy a subscription.
However, the TBS Radio is just PERFECT. This is exacly what I needed.
I especially like:
http://www.tbsradio.jp/so/
They're easy to listen to and genuinely interesting if you're into "slice of life" topics.
Even if I can't understand the conversation word by word, I can still grasp the general meaning.
And:
http://www.tbsradio.jp/ashita/
The podcasts often feature some medical terms, but in a way that a "regular" person can understand what's going on.
I just finished listening to one about high blood pressure, and I learnt some interesting things (my mum has high blood pressure so I found them useful too).
I also checked out the Nihongo no Mori channel and it looks very promising!
I wish I knew about podcasts and stuff like that when I first started learning English; I hate the fact that I need to consentrate real hard now when watching a movie in English (especially British), and if I forget my headphones, I'm basically doomed for the first half an hour (until it "clicks"). I'd really love to avoid that with my Japanese xD