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+--- Thread: Rare Grammar Points - 羽目になる、暁に (/thread-13604.html)
Rare Grammar Points - 羽目になる、暁に - foreverunclean - 2016-02-23
Has anybody come acrosss these grammar in any books before or been taught these? I fist came accross 暁に (あかつきに) from renshuu.org. Then i tried to find where he got it from and I only found it in this book.
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=KcmN4Gyvoe8C&printsec=frontcover&dq=google+books+あかつきに 文法&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiGlJbpio_LAhXFMhoKHSs4B9gQ6AEIRjAF#v=onepage&q&f=false
Within that same chapter is 羽目になる which I also have seen anywhere.
The thing that bugs me is that I've since heard these grammar points been used, but they are never taught as far as i can tell, and in hardly any grammar books.
Does anyone have the same experience with other grammar points?
RE: Rare Grammar Points - 羽目になる、暁に - yudantaiteki - 2016-02-23
This isn't grammar, it's just phrases or idioms. The J-E dictionary on my electronic dictionary has 暁に with two example sentences, and 羽目になる with three example sentences. alc.co.jp has a lot of examples for 羽目になる too.
RE: Rare Grammar Points - 羽目になる、暁に - pm215 - 2016-02-23
I don't know whether I specifically learned 羽目になる as grammar but I definitely picked it up from somewhere. It's one of those "are we going to call this grammar, or just a common expression" kind of things -- if you didn't know it, but encountered it "in the wild" you could easily determine the meaning (and very likely that 羽目になる is a semi-fixed expression) from looking up 羽目 in a dictionary.
あかつきに is new to me (but again a dictionary lookup makes the meaning obvious).
RE: Rare Grammar Points - 羽目になる、暁に - pm215 - 2016-02-23
(2016-02-23, 7:19 pm)yudantaiteki Wrote: This isn't grammar, it's just phrases or idioms.Right, but I think that many grammar books/JLPT study guides/etc tend to list a lot of things as "grammar" which you could equally dump in the phrase-or-idiom bucket. (For instance I have a grammar dictionary that lists both ~始末だ and この度 which don't seem much different.)
In any case, if you take the expansive definition of "grammar" as a textbook author, at some point (probably guided by frequency) you have to draw a line, because you can't put in every common expression. For learning that's going to work out fine, because the rarer phrase-and-expression stuff isn't going to turn up on tests and if you do run into it in the wild then it'll be in a dictionary.
RE: Rare Grammar Points - 羽目になる、暁に - foreverunclean - 2016-02-23
(2016-02-23, 7:19 pm)yudantaiteki Wrote: This isn't grammar, it's just phrases or idioms. The J-E dictionary on my electronic dictionary has 暁に with two example sentences, and 羽目になる with three example sentences. alc.co.jp has a lot of examples for 羽目になる too.Yeah there are examples which is good but there should be at least a learners dictionary of these idioms and phrases.
(2016-02-23, 7:25 pm)pm215 Wrote: I don't know whether I specifically learned 羽目になる as grammar but I definitely picked it up from somewhere. It's one of those "are we going to call this grammar, or just a common expression" kind of things -- if you didn't know it, but encountered it "in the wild" you could easily determine the meaning (and very likely that 羽目になる is a semi-fixed expression) from looking up 羽目 in a dictionary.
あかつきに is new to me (but again a dictionary lookup makes the meaning obvious).
I know you can find them in dictionaries, but it doesn't give the nuanced usage that the grammar explanation gives
Edit: I was using daijirin which gives
[font='Times New Roman', Times, 'ヒラギノ明朝 ProN', 'Hiragino Mincho ProN', YuMincho, 'Yu Mincho', メイリオ, Meiryo, 'ＭＳ Ｐゴシック', serif]
②
ある物事が実現・完成した際。 「試験に合格の－には」[/font]
but daijisen has a much better explanation
待ち望んでいたことが実現する、その際。「当選の
RE: Rare Grammar Points - 羽目になる、暁に - s0apgun - 2016-02-27
I have both of these in my reading deck. Which means I saw them out in the wild while reading novels or manga. Not that uncommon.