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+--- Thread: N1Grammar- studying differences between similar expressions (/thread-13591.html)
RE: N1Grammar- studying differences between similar expressions - Zgarbas - 2016-03-08
Have you tried the goo.jp thesaurus? I find it quite lifesaving when I'm confused about things. Teachers are also of great help. TBH small differences are where I make a lot of mistakes since 99% of the time they're not important enough to change the meaning. A lot of them are related to level so formality more than meaning, so you do get odd looks when you drop something 古い・硬い, but that's about it.
JOI also has private lessons, btw. They're really flexible about what to cover during lessons. (another trick is to use unpopular timezones like 5am GMT, when you can catch teachers 1-on-1 during otherwise group lessons, and then basically bombard them with everything that's ever bothered you since the lesson will be over in 10-15 minutes)
RE: N1Grammar- studying differences between similar expressions - RawrPk - 2016-03-08
MCL Japanese Skype lessons cater to N1 levels too if JOI doesn't work out for some reason.
Skype lessons: http://www.mlcjapanese.co.jp/skype_lesson.html
Books used for jlpt lessons: http://www.mlcjapanese.co.jp/recommended_books_JLPT.html
RE: N1Grammar- studying differences between similar expressions - PotbellyPig - 2016-03-09
Well I was able to be assigned a tutor from JOI. I also found one from iTalki so I am debating with myself between the two. The one from JOI from her profile seems more focused on what I want to learn. There is one thing I don't understand about JOI. Is it audio only? There seems to be a specific software that they use that seems audio only. Do you think this would impact the tutoring?
RE: N1Grammar- studying differences between similar expressions - RawrPk - 2016-03-09
I know ariariari has taken JOI lessons. I'm sure he has some insight on how the lessons are taught.
RE: N1Grammar- studying differences between similar expressions - rich_f - 2016-03-09
(2016-03-09, 1:58 pm)PotbellyPig Wrote: Well I was able to be assigned a tutor from JOI. I also found one from iTalki so I am debating with myself between the two. The one from JOI from her profile seems more focused on what I want to learn. There is one thing I don't understand about JOI. Is it audio only? There seems to be a specific software that they use that seems audio only. Do you think this would impact the tutoring?
ISTR that it's audio with an optional one-way video stream from the teacher. I never turned the video on, because I wanted to make sure my bandwidth didn't die mid-lesson, but you can turn it on. Also, some teachers have prepared Powerpoint-like slides, or an electronic blackboard-y thing.
It's not quite the same as Skype-ing. I'd give it a shot, and see if it works for you. If it does, great, if it doesn't, see what does.
RE: N1Grammar- studying differences between similar expressions - Zgarbas - 2016-03-09
My tutor on JOI would prepare texts, powerpoints, and role-play situations that we would go through together. I never turned on my side of the video either, but the profs always turn on theirs. You also have a chat where the professor writes in vocabulary and details for your to remember, and you can take notes there - you can save the chat logs to review later.
RE: N1Grammar- studying differences between similar expressions - rich_f - 2016-03-10
Yeah, the chat logs are really useful to have, so you don't waste time taking notes, and instead you can focus on the lesson. And the teachers are good about reminding you to save the chat logs, too. I'd also recommend making *sure* you give those save names some kind of meaningful name at the time you save them, otherwise you'll wind up with a bunch of log files by date, and that's not quite as useful.
RE: N1Grammar- studying differences between similar expressions - PotbellyPig - 2016-03-11
Thanks for all the info. It turns out that the JOI tutor only conducts lessons in Japanese which I wouldn't be quite comfortable with yet for the grammar issues. I might see if they have someone else or just try an iTalki tutor if I can find one.
RE: N1Grammar- studying differences between similar expressions - Zgarbas - 2016-03-11
Fairly sure all of JOI is in Japanese. Maybe italki would be better then, though I would have to wonder... How many Japanese people are fluent enough in English to orally explain fine grammar points in their own languagr?
RE: N1Grammar- studying differences between similar expressions - pm215 - 2016-03-11
It is entirely possible to learn Japanese from zero entirely taught in Japanese, grammar included; I wouldn't necessarily dismiss the idea out of hand.
RE: N1Grammar- studying differences between similar expressions - rich_f - 2016-03-12
Yeah, it's probably a change from how you've been learning up until now, but having to do your lessons all in Japanese will pay HUGE dividends long-term. I agree with Zgarbas: my experience is that it's hard to find tutors who are fluent in both languages, but it's really easy to find a ton of good tutors who are fluent in Japanese only. (And there are a lot of reasons why some tutors with perfectly acceptable English will not mention that they can speak it, but that's another thread.)
One nice thing about learning in Japanese: no translation filters to worry about clouding up the meaning of things. Not saying that 日本語文型辞典 is bad, because I just raved about it on the last page, but translation means another person interprets it, then figures out a way to say it in English, and in the process, bits of meaning invariably get lost. So if you really want to zero in on stuff, then translating is always going to be a sloppy tool. That's been my experience with it, anyway. (Look at chapter 1 in KZM 文法 N1: you could translate almost all of them as, "As soon as," but that doesn't really convey the proper shades of meaning, right?)
If you're not confident about your ability to hold down a conversation in Japanese, start with small group lessons in conversational Japanese at JOI, and maybe some grammar classes a level or two lower than you need, just to get used to it. The group lessons are pretty inexpensive, and they're "safe" in that there are usually a few other people there who have to speak as well. (And really, nobody cares if you make a ton of mistakes early on. That's what the class is for-- to make a ton of mistakes and learn how to carry on a proper conversation.)
RE: N1Grammar- studying differences between similar expressions - Zgarbas - 2016-03-13
+ one more thing about japanese-language classes. While There are some good translated resources out there, when it comes to classes I think that doing them in your native language stops you from actually making the mental switch to Japanese. Most foreign language classes in Europe are done 100% in that language from day 1. There's no reason why this wouldn't work just as well in Japanese, especially since you're already at an advanced level. there's a lot of fear and reservation before doing something in your target language, just dive right in and you'll see some rapid progress, I promise!
(Coincidentally, rich_f was there for the first time I ever spoke Japanese in front of native speakers, a.k.a. My first ever Joi class... I'm sure e can attest to how terrible I was at speaking... but I made a lot of progress really fast with those lessons)
RE: N1Grammar- studying differences between similar expressions - rich_f - 2016-03-13
(2016-03-13, 1:18 am)Zgarbas Wrote: (Coincidentally, rich_f was there for the first time I ever spoke Japanese in front of native speakers, a.k.a. My first ever Joi class... I'm sure e can attest to how terrible I was at speaking... but I made a lot of progress really fast with those lessons)
It is kind of funny to hear different countries' "Japanese accents." It's always pretty easy to spot Americans speaking ジャパニーズ, though. (We're really カタカナ in the way we pronounce stuff at times.)
But you did fine, Zgarbas. I remember hearing a lot of people (myself included) brutalize the language on a regular basis in those classes, but I don't remember you sticking out by being any worse than the rest of us.
JOI is great in that regard-- you can get good fast if you want, because you can load up on lessons however you feel like, and I never really felt like the teachers tried to stress us out or anything.
Speaking is tricky at first. There's this balance between having to know enough "stuff" to be able to produce meaningful sentences without having to think for 5 minutes, and then there's the need to be able to say it in a way that isn't so heavily accented that it's incomprehensible. There's not really any way to get better at it, other than to talk a lot to other people.
RE: N1Grammar- studying differences between similar expressions - Meriden - 2016-03-16
I'm abou to finish genki 2. Since plan to continue through the textbooks route, I was wondering how I should proceed AFTER reaching N1. Should I do Imabi, and after that buy 日本語文型辞典 monolingual?
RE: N1Grammar- studying differences between similar expressions - risu_ - 2016-03-16
(2016-03-16, 6:23 am)Meriden Wrote: I'm abou to finish genki 2. Since plan to continue through the textbooks route, I was wondering how I should proceed AFTER reaching N1. Should I do Imabi, and after that buy 日本語文型辞典 monolingual?
RE: N1Grammar- studying differences between similar expressions - rich_f - 2016-03-16
(2016-03-16, 6:23 am)Meriden Wrote: I'm abou to finish genki 2. Since plan to continue through the textbooks route, I was wondering how I should proceed AFTER reaching N1. Should I do Imabi, and after that buy 日本語文型辞典 monolingual?
You've got two different things going on here. Okay, maybe three.
One, you're finishing up Genki 2 (good job), so you're almost at N4 level now. Don't worry about N1 yet. Worry about getting to N4, then N3, then N2. There's a TON of material to take care of along the way from N4 to N2, and you need to solidify all of that so you can use the language functionally.
Two, while I haven't checked Imabi lately, I know that 日本語文型辞典 is a dictionary/reference book of grammar. I would not recommend using it as a textbook, if that's what you mean by "doing" it. You can use either one, or renshuu.org as a resource for looking stuff up, though! If you just mean using it as a source for an Anki deck, I'd just warn about one thing: boring Anki decks full of boring sentences are boring. Most people stop doing boring things eventually, because they're boring. I tried to go at it with a deck full of boring sentences, and it worked for a while, but in the end, boredom won. It can work short-term, but long-term, ugh.
Third: when should you go monolingual? I'm no expert on this, but I'd say the best time to go is as soon as you can functionally handle it. The sooner you do it, the more benefits you'll get. You don't need to be challenging N1 to go monolingual-- it's doable (albeit difficult) at N3 level. The sooner you do it, the harder it will be at first (at first!). And there's probably a point where it's TOO hard or TOO soon, but only you can really figure that one out.
RE: N1Grammar- studying differences between similar expressions - PotbellyPig - 2016-03-16
As an update, I found tutors on iTalki who are proficient in English and are able to teach me the grammar using it. The last section of Shin Kanzen Master bunpou is extremely challenging for me so I'm hoping that with some clarity, I will understand it better.
RE: N1Grammar- studying differences between similar expressions - Meriden - 2016-03-16
Yeah, I was just planning the road ahead. I'll stick to the textbook route then. I'll go with IATIJ->Tobira->Kanzen N2 in the medium-term.
Another reason I've asked those questions is that, while I learn new grammar points, I forget several old ones. Because of that, I started only a few days ago with an anki deck for grammar, but the lack of a systematic grammar reference gives me a few difficulties. How would you suggest I solidify grammar, and N4 to N2 in general?
RE: N1Grammar- studying differences between similar expressions - RawrPk - 2016-03-16
(2016-03-16, 4:32 pm)Meriden Wrote: Yeah, I was just planning the road ahead. I'll stick to the textbook route then. I'll go with IATIJ->Tobira->Kanzen N2 in the medium-term.
Another reason I've asked those questions is that, while I learn new grammar points, I forget several old ones. Because of that, I started only a few days ago with an anki deck for grammar, but the lack of a systematic grammar reference gives me a few difficulties. How would you suggest I solidify grammar, and N4 to N2 in general?
Nihongo Challenge N4 Grammar Reading JLPT is a good review book to solidify the grammar points you learned in Genki 1&2. For N3, you can check out the Sou Matome books which is a popular set used by many of the forum members intending to take the N3 JLPT in 2016. For N2/N1, Kanzen Master is a popular choice as seen in last year's N2-N1 Thread and of course this thread for N1.
RE: N1Grammar- studying differences between similar expressions - rich_f - 2016-03-16
(2016-03-16, 4:32 pm)Meriden Wrote: Yeah, I was just planning the road ahead. I'll stick to the textbook route then. I'll go with IATIJ->Tobira->Kanzen N2 in the medium-term.
Another reason I've asked those questions is that, while I learn new grammar points, I forget several old ones. Because of that, I started only a few days ago with an anki deck for grammar, but the lack of a systematic grammar reference gives me a few difficulties. How would you suggest I solidify grammar, and N4 to N2 in general?
Use the language. That means reading/listening/speaking/writing a lot. You get out what you put in. Flash cards are great for managing stuff you don't use frequently, but make sure you use the language on a regular basis.
Speaking and writing will help you cement your knowledge of a lot of stuff. Reading and listening will work like extra flash card reviews, reinforcing words/grammar you've been studying when you run across them-- "Oh, there's that grammar point again!"
If you get sick of textbooks, it's okay. You can try other methods. There should be a wiki entry here somewhere of different things to try. It's a long windy road to proficiency, and some of us have a few detours along the way. It's all cool.
The best advice is in DrDunlap's Arcane Secrets thread. It's on here somewhere.
RE: N1Grammar- studying differences between similar expressions - Meriden - 2016-03-17
Thx for the replies. So I'll worry about grammar books later. Will probably resume watching dramas next month.
RE: N1Grammar- studying differences between similar expressions - PotbellyPig - 2016-03-18
Okay I have a question about two N1 problems:
1.
1週間で注文１件も（a. 取れないとしたら b. 取れないようでは） 営業マンとは言えないと言われてしまった。
I know 取れないようでは is the better fitting answer gramattically but is there anything inherently wrong with 取れないとしたら?
2. I don't understand the format of the following question. I think you are supposed to fill in the correct answer in the '*' location but how do you know what are in the other 3 blanks?
この旅行で____ ____ * ____ でも気軽に話せたことだ。
1. 何
2. だれと
3. にもまして
4. 良かったことは
Thanks!
RE: N1Grammar- studying differences between similar expressions - Ash_S - 2016-03-18
The other 3 blanks are the other answer words. You put them in the right order and the answer you mark down is the one that matches the * location.
RE: N1Grammar- studying differences between similar expressions - PotbellyPig - 2016-03-18
(2016-03-18, 9:10 am)Ash_S Wrote: The other 3 blanks are the other answer words. You put them in the right order and the answer you mark down is the one that matches the * location.
Thanks for clearing up #2. Can anyone answer my query on #1? Thanks.
RE: N1Grammar- studying differences between similar expressions - rich_f - 2016-03-18
For 1, after ようでは, something either contrary to expectations OR critical of the subject ("negative judgments") is talked about. (Have a look at 日本語文型辞典 EN version, p. 665.) Kind of a "If X can't do something like this, then (negative judgment)" sort of thing, which is perfect for this sentence.
としたら (p. 362, since it's #2, already realized condition) is talking about a supposition instead of a judgment, where ようでは is talking more of a judgment than a supposition. としたら has more of a "Since X can't do something like this, then he's probably not going to do it," flavor, so if you tried to shove it into 1, it would sound like "Since X can't do something like this, he's not much of a salesman," which sounds weird. としたら does show the speaker's judgment, but it's more of a "Well, if X hasn't happened, then it's probably not going to" sort of thing, rather than, "If X can't do it, then X sucks" kind of thing. (Because there's no negative or critical opinion expressed in the としたら judgment, just an opinion about what's going to happen next.)
At least that's how I see it.