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N1Grammar- studying differences between similar expressions - PotbellyPig - 2016-02-17
I already superficially studied grammar through N1 and beyond. I read books with fairly ease. But I was studying the Kanzen Master N1 Grammar workbook and I'm getting confused between the subtle differences between similar expressions i.e. んがため and べく. There are notes that explain some the points in Japanese but they sometimes don't hit home. Are there any other resources that would be helpful? Workbook or otherwise? To get a multiple choice question and pick out the slight difference between similar expressions sometimes seems like a hard task. Sometimes the differences are clear like a negative expression always follows or always an action but other times.....
RE: N1Grammar- studying differences between similar expressions - RawrPk - 2016-02-17
I'm nowhere near N1 level, but I've heard that A Dictionary of Advanced Japanese Grammar explains higher level grammar well. I'm sure if it is anything like the Basic Grammar book (which I have), I'm sure this would be a good resource. It is available on Amazon but of course, there are other means to acquire the book. Google-sama knows.
http://www.amazon.com/Dictionary-Advanced-Japanese-Grammar-Edition/dp/4789012956
RE: N1Grammar- studying differences between similar expressions - PotbellyPig - 2016-02-17
I have all those books. They do lack a lot of N1 expressions. But besides that, I looked up べく and it doesn't have the nuances that Kanzen Master N1 adds at the bottom of the description that would help differentiate it from similar expressions. Maybe only books that aim for the N1 have it? I can look at a Soumatome book in the bookstore I guess.
RE: N1Grammar- studying differences between similar expressions - zx573 - 2016-02-17
Have you checked どんな時どう使う 日本語表現文型辞典? I don't know sure what nuances are listed at the bottom of the description in Kanzen Master N1 so I can't say for sure if it's what you're looking for, but it has a lot of N1 grammar (and everything before) but it's been pretty good in my experience for everything I've looked up. べく and んがため（に） are both in there, too.
RE: N1Grammar- studying differences between similar expressions - PotbellyPig - 2016-02-18
(2016-02-17, 7:13 pm)zx573 Wrote: Have you checked どんな時どう使う 日本語表現文型辞典? I don't know sure what nuances are listed at the bottom of the description in Kanzen Master N1 so I can't say for sure if it's what you're looking for, but it has a lot of N1 grammar (and everything before) but it's been pretty good in my experience for everything I've looked up. べく and んがため（に） are both in there, too.
Does it go into detail on why you would use one over the other?
RE: N1Grammar- studying differences between similar expressions - zx573 - 2016-02-18
(2016-02-18, 9:21 am)PotbellyPig Wrote:(2016-02-17, 7:13 pm)zx573 Wrote: Have you checked どんな時どう使う 日本語表現文型辞典? I don't know sure what nuances are listed at the bottom of the description in Kanzen Master N1 so I can't say for sure if it's what you're looking for, but it has a lot of N1 grammar (and everything before) but it's been pretty good in my experience for everything I've looked up. べく and んがため（に） are both in there, too.
Does it go into detail on why you would use one over the other?
It doesn't compare and contrast the two grammar points, no. But the definitions seem pretty clear to me in the book I suggested.
べく
1) Someone tries to achieve goal they set. Formal expression, but also used in modern speech.
2) Clauses of requests, commands, or appeals do not follow.
んがため（に）
1) Person in question has proactive goal he truly wishes to accomplish. Formal written form.
2) Clauses containing requests, commands, or urgings do not follow.
From what I gather between these two, you could potentially use べく when speaking but wouldn't use んがため（に）, and that んがため（に） would be used when the person is really going for it where as the person being talked about it べく might not be as proactive, but are still trying to achieve their goals. It makes it a bit clearer compared to the explanations I see in the Shin Kanzen Master N1 Grammar book, anyway.
I pulled an example sentence for both points that seemed to represent the difference well:
べく
1) ラムさんを迎えるべく空港まで行ったが、会えなかった。
んがため（に）
2) 研究を完成させんがため、彼は昼夜寝ずにがんばった。
ラムさん did what (s)he wanted to do but didn't seem all that dedicated, whereas the other person did whatever it took to complete his research.
RE: N1Grammar- studying differences between similar expressions - PotbellyPig - 2016-02-18
(2016-02-18, 10:30 am)zx573 Wrote:That seems pretty good then. Thanks for taking the time to transcribe it. I really appreciate it.(2016-02-18, 9:21 am)PotbellyPig Wrote:(2016-02-17, 7:13 pm)zx573 Wrote: Have you checked どんな時どう使う 日本語表現文型辞典? I don't know sure what nuances are listed at the bottom of the description in Kanzen Master N1 so I can't say for sure if it's what you're looking for, but it has a lot of N1 grammar (and everything before) but it's been pretty good in my experience for everything I've looked up. べく and んがため（に） are both in there, too.
Does it go into detail on why you would use one over the other?
It doesn't compare and contrast the two grammar points, no. But the definitions seem pretty clear to me in the book I suggested.
べく
1) Someone tries to achieve goal they set. Formal expression, but also used in modern speech.
2) Clauses of requests, commands, or appeals do not follow.
んがため（に）
1) Person in question has proactive goal he truly wishes to accomplish. Formal written form.
2) Clauses containing requests, commands, or urgings do not follow.
From what I gather between these two, you could potentially use べく when speaking but wouldn't use んがため（に）, and that んがため（に） would be used when the person is really going for it where as the person being talked about it べく might not be as proactive, but are still trying to achieve their goals. It makes it a bit clearer compared to the explanations I see in the Shin Kanzen Master N1 Grammar book, anyway.
I pulled an example sentence for both points that seemed to represent the difference well:
べく
1) ラムさんは迎えるべく空港まで行ったが、会えなかった。
んがため（に）
2) 研究を完成させんがため、彼は昼夜寝ずにがんばった。
ラムさん did what (s)he wanted to do but didn't seem all that dedicated, whereas the other person did whatever it took to complete his research.
RE: N1Grammar- studying differences between similar expressions - Ash_S - 2016-02-18
(2016-02-18, 10:30 am)zx573 Wrote: I pulled an example sentence for both points that seemed to represent the difference well:
べく
1) ラムさんは迎えるべく空港まで行ったが、会えなかった。
んがため（に）
2) 研究を完成させんがため、彼は昼夜寝ずにがんばった。
ラムさん did what (s)he wanted to do but didn't seem all that dedicated, whereas the other person did whatever it took to complete his research.
is that really ラムさんは?
sounds odd o.o
RE: N1Grammar- studying differences between similar expressions - zx573 - 2016-02-18
(2016-02-18, 11:56 am)Ash_S Wrote:(2016-02-18, 10:30 am)zx573 Wrote: I pulled an example sentence for both points that seemed to represent the difference well:
べく
1) ラムさんは迎えるべく空港まで行ったが、会えなかった。
んがため（に）
2) 研究を完成させんがため、彼は昼夜寝ずにがんばった。
ラムさん did what (s)he wanted to do but didn't seem all that dedicated, whereas the other person did whatever it took to complete his research.
is that really ラムさんは?
sounds odd o.o
Good catch. I just got home from class so I double checked and it should've been を. Fixed.
RE: N1Grammar- studying differences between similar expressions - PotbellyPig - 2016-02-18
Since I already have a N1 grammar matured deck I should probably make another one, with emphasis on the nuances, one card for each grammar point. I didn't look at these when I studied previously. I think I once looked at a N1 grammar section of a N1 test and the questions are very tricky that something like this is needed. Please let me know if I am wrong in thinking this. I think you need to know things like what type of words the point is attached to, the content of what follows in the sentence, etc.. In order to be able to distinguish between similar grammar.
RE: N1Grammar- studying differences between similar expressions - pm215 - 2016-02-18
Well, you sort of do, but I don't actually think the N1 test (from my experience of a bunch of mock tests) really throws in very tricky questions that require you to know deeply subtle nuances. It will ask questions where some of the options are "wrong because it doesn't connect to a noun like that" or "wrong because you can't use this with a command" or whatever, but to me that's not a very subtle thing. If you know what the grammar form means and how to use it then I think that is mostly sufficient.
RE: N1Grammar- studying differences between similar expressions - PotbellyPig - 2016-02-18
(2016-02-18, 5:07 pm)pm215 Wrote: Well, you sort of do, but I don't actually think the N1 test (from my experience of a bunch of mock tests) really throws in very tricky questions that require you to know deeply subtle nuances. It will ask questions where some of the options are "wrong because it doesn't connect to a noun like that" or "wrong because you can't use this with a command" or whatever, but to me that's not a very subtle thing. If you know what the grammar form means and how to use it then I think that is mostly sufficient.
I guess I'll have to study it then. I am weak in those sort of things. Even though I've read at this point probably 100 light novels and done listening practice, I don't practice production so I'm weak in the nuances of the rules in a lot of cases.
RE: N1Grammar- studying differences between similar expressions - afterglowefx - 2016-02-18
I have not sat any of the JLPT tests so my experience may not be the most relevant, but my speaking and listening are JLPT1ish and I know all the words from the JLPT1 vocab decks.
I have never sat down and studied grammar directly. What I do is when I find a new grammar form I am unfamiliar with is immediately look up 5-10 example sentences, add them all into Anki, and work out the usage through osmosis. Grammar than starts to "feel right" or "feel wrong" as I am exposed to more and more examples.
I am not suggesting you throw away grammar study in favor of this, but it may help you to develop a more nuanced grasp of grammar if used in conjunction with your other studies.
RE: N1Grammar- studying differences between similar expressions - PotbellyPig - 2016-02-18
(2016-02-18, 6:50 pm)afterglowefx Wrote: I have not sat any of the JLPT tests so my experience may not be the most relevant, but my speaking and listening are JLPT1ish and I know all the words from the JLPT1 vocab decks.
I have never sat down and studied grammar directly. What I do is when I find a new grammar form I am unfamiliar with is immediately look up 5-10 example sentences, add them all into Anki, and work out the usage through osmosis. Grammar than starts to "feel right" or "feel wrong" as I am exposed to more and more examples.
I am not suggesting you throw away grammar study in favor of this, but it may help you to develop a more nuanced grasp of grammar if used in conjunction with your other studies.
I agree with you to some extent, but the questions in the Kanzen Master N1 grammer book can be tricky. If you don't practice production frequently, they would be hard to remember the exact usage naturally. By the way, I bought the book that zx573 recommended. The Google Play Book Store happened to have it at a decent price.
RE: N1Grammar- studying differences between similar expressions - zx573 - 2016-02-18
(2016-02-18, 7:47 pm)PotbellyPig Wrote:(2016-02-18, 6:50 pm)afterglowefx Wrote: I have not sat any of the JLPT tests so my experience may not be the most relevant, but my speaking and listening are JLPT1ish and I know all the words from the JLPT1 vocab decks.
I have never sat down and studied grammar directly. What I do is when I find a new grammar form I am unfamiliar with is immediately look up 5-10 example sentences, add them all into Anki, and work out the usage through osmosis. Grammar than starts to "feel right" or "feel wrong" as I am exposed to more and more examples.
I am not suggesting you throw away grammar study in favor of this, but it may help you to develop a more nuanced grasp of grammar if used in conjunction with your other studies.
I agree with you to some extent, but the questions in the Kanzen Master N1 grammer book can be tricky. If you don't practice production frequently, they would be hard to remember the exact usage naturally. By the way, I bought the book that zx573 recommended. The Google Play Book Store happened to have it at a decent price.
For what it's worth, I think the questions in the (Shin) Kanzen Master grammar books are intentionally harder than the actual test. You're taught 5-6 different grammar points that are all similar but with slight differences, and you are tested on them all at the same time. I used the Shin Kanzen Master N2 grammar book during my N2 prep last year and I felt the actual test was much easier. I felt with the actual JLPT test I was able to rule out 1 or 2 choices pretty quickly because they did not fit at all, whereas it was harder to do that with the questions from the Shin Kanzen Master grammar book.
Also, glad you checked out the book! It indeed seems to be at a very reasonable price right now. It's the best grammar/expression book I've used and even when the explanation in Shin Kanzen Master doesn't quite click for me, it's usually enough to clear things up. Hopefully you find it as useful as I do!
RE: N1Grammar- studying differences between similar expressions - rich_f - 2016-02-18
Also good for disambiguation, Nihongo no Mori!
https://www.youtube.com/user/freejapaneselessons3/playlists
I like どんなとき as a quick n' dirty reference, but I have to admit that when I'm totally lost, I go to 日本語文型辞典 for help. Also, くらべてわかる日本語表現文型辞典 is pretty useful, too.
RE: N1Grammar- studying differences between similar expressions - foreverunclean - 2016-02-19
(2016-02-17, 4:31 pm)PotbellyPig Wrote: I already superficially studied grammar through N1 and beyond. I read books with fairly ease. But I was studying the Kanzen Master N1 Grammar workbook and I'm getting confused between the subtle differences between similar expressions i.e. んがため and べく. There are notes that explain some the points in Japanese but they sometimes don't hit home. Are there any other resources that would be helpful? Workbook or otherwise? To get a multiple choice question and pick out the slight difference between similar expressions sometimes seems like a hard task. Sometimes the differences are clear like a negative expression always follows or always an action but other times.....
(2016-02-18, 11:18 pm)rich_f Wrote: Also good for disambiguation, Nihongo no Mori!
https://www.youtube.com/user/freejapaneselessons3/playlists
I like どんなとき as a quick n' dirty reference, but I have to admit that when I'm totally lost, I go to 日本語文型辞典 for help. Also, くらべてわかる日本語表現文型辞典 is pretty useful, too.
Yeah kanzen master n1 is really useful but so confusing for the similar points. Especially the first chapter lol. I think i've bought or tried nearly all grammar books and can say that the ones recomended above are the best for helping with comparisons, especially the くらべてわかる one. It has a workbook available to buy aswell but never used them before.
日本語文型辞典 is the most thorough in number of grammar points.
I have どんなとき but I find it doesn't really explain the differences well and just uses similar explanations for every point.
The Dictionary of B/I/A Japanese Grammar are the ones I use the least as there is just too much information that is quite overwhelming.
For english translations, these two are good, but I find it better to use the english translation and explanation from renshuu.org.
edit: Nearly forgot,
This site is great also
http://jn2et.com/JLPT.html#%E6%96%87%E5%9E%8B%E3%81%AE%E9%81%95%E3%81%84%E3%83%BB%E4%BD%BF%E3%81%84%E5%88%86%E3%81%91
RE: N1Grammar- studying differences between similar expressions - rich_f - 2016-02-19
Ah yeah, renshuu.org is really good, too. I tend to skip the DOJG series these days, because they never seem to have to points I'm trying to find, and I hate looking stuff up in it, only to find it's not in there. -_-
If chapter 1 of KZM N1 is problematic, (and it can be confusing), then watch the 4th and 5th Nihongo no Mori N1 videos on this playlist-- they cover all of those points with cute little diagrams, to boot.
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLINFE8v4DOhuWGD30O-2a8oWD5j_uw1Hc
RE: N1Grammar- studying differences between similar expressions - PotbellyPig - 2016-02-19
(2016-02-18, 11:18 pm)rich_f Wrote: Also good for disambiguation, Nihongo no Mori!
https://www.youtube.com/user/freejapaneselessons3/playlists
I like どんなとき as a quick n' dirty reference, but I have to admit that when I'm totally lost, I go to 日本語文型辞典 for help. Also, くらべてわかる日本語表現文型辞典 is pretty useful, too.
I already bought どんなとき as a ebook. I like that so I can cut and paste into a spreadsheet. For purpose of nuances between similar forms, which of the other books would you recommend? Also do any of them have the description in English? I'm at the point that I don't usually use translations but for things like nuances which are tricky, it can help. It seems like you like 日本語文型辞典.
Edit: there seems to be a just published English edition of the above mentioned dictionary. If you think it will help with the problems I am having, I'll buy it.
RE: N1Grammar- studying differences between similar expressions - s0apgun - 2016-02-19
(2016-02-19, 3:37 pm)rich_f Wrote: Ah yeah, renshuu.org is really good, too. I tend to skip the DOJG series these days, because they never seem to have to points I'm trying to find, and I hate looking stuff up in it, only to find it's not in there. -_-
If chapter 1 of KZM N1 is problematic, (and it can be confusing), then watch the 4th and 5th Nihongo no Mori N1 videos on this playlist-- they cover all of those points with cute little diagrams, to boot.
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLINFE8v4DOhuWGD30O-2a8oWD5j_uw1Hc
thanks for the link! great channel
RE: N1Grammar- studying differences between similar expressions - rich_f - 2016-02-19
(2016-02-19, 5:06 pm)PotbellyPig Wrote:(2016-02-18, 11:18 pm)rich_f Wrote: Also good for disambiguation, Nihongo no Mori!
https://www.youtube.com/user/freejapaneselessons3/playlists
I like どんなとき as a quick n' dirty reference, but I have to admit that when I'm totally lost, I go to 日本語文型辞典 for help. Also, くらべてわかる日本語表現文型辞典 is pretty useful, too.
I already bought どんなとき as a ebook. I like that so I can cut and paste into a spreadsheet. For purpose of nuances between similar forms, which of the other books would you recommend? Also do any of them have the description in English? I'm at the point that I don't usually use translations but for things like nuances which are tricky, it can help. It seems like you like 日本語文型辞典.
Edit: there seems to be a just published English edition of the above mentioned dictionary. If you think it will help with the problems I am having, I'll buy it.
I'd say both どんなとき and 日本語文型辞典 tend to run short on definitions (どんなとき's definitions tend to run a tad shorter IMO, and the EN version isn't always that useful for disambiguating things.)
日本語文型辞典's strong point is it's breadth of coverage. It covers darn near everything. It has a similar structure to どんなとき-- 4 example sentences and an explanation-- but it just seems to have more "stuff" in it, even if the discussions aren't very long. I'd be curious to see how the EN version of 日本語文型辞典 looks. If you don't pick up a copy, I might the next time I order some paperbacks.
くらべてわかる日本語表現文型辞典 follows a similar format, but it gives me another source to go to when I can't get enough clarity on something.
But renshuu.org is a heck of a lot cheaper than all three. If renshuu explains it well enough, then that's good enough IMO.
That probably just muddies the waters, huh? Well, I'd use what you've got unless it doesn't help, then try renshuu or Nihongo no Mori, and if that doesn't help, try 日本語文型辞典.
RE: N1Grammar- studying differences between similar expressions - foreverunclean - 2016-02-20
(2016-02-19, 3:37 pm)rich_f Wrote: Ah yeah, renshuu.org is really good, too. I tend to skip the DOJG series these days, because they never seem to have to points I'm trying to find, and I hate looking stuff up in it, only to find it's not in there. -_-
If chapter 1 of KZM N1 is problematic, (and it can be confusing), then watch the 4th and 5th Nihongo no Mori N1 videos on this playlist-- they cover all of those points with cute little diagrams, to boot.
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLINFE8v4DOhuWGD30O-2a8oWD5j_uw1Hc
DOJG is so expensive that it seems a shame not to use it, but its not worth having around. I would sell them right now but they are at my parents house.
The best English grammar resource is definately Imabi anyway
Chapter 1 isn't problematic anymore, I was just saying that it was really confusing for me for a long time. Even our Japanese teacher who used to teach at Toudai couldn't really explain it well lol. The link I posted before had the explanation that helped the most.
Here is the one for time grammar: http://jn2et.com/JLPT/2-tatotanni-toomouto-kanaikanoutini-gahayaika-sobakara-nari-yanainaya-sidai.html
For some reason I don't really learn anything from the Nihongo no Mori n1. I'll try them again at some point if I want to learn grammar again.
RE: N1Grammar- studying differences between similar expressions - foreverunclean - 2016-02-20
(2016-02-19, 5:06 pm)PotbellyPig Wrote:(2016-02-18, 11:18 pm)rich_f Wrote: Also good for disambiguation, Nihongo no Mori!
https://www.youtube.com/user/freejapaneselessons3/playlists
I like どんなとき as a quick n' dirty reference, but I have to admit that when I'm totally lost, I go to 日本語文型辞典 for help. Also, くらべてわかる日本語表現文型辞典 is pretty useful, too.
I already bought どんなとき as a ebook. I like that so I can cut and paste into a spreadsheet. For purpose of nuances between similar forms, which of the other books would you recommend? Also do any of them have the description in English? I'm at the point that I don't usually use translations but for things like nuances which are tricky, it can help. It seems like you like 日本語文型辞典.
Edit: there seems to be a just published English edition of the above mentioned dictionary. If you think it will help with the problems I am having, I'll buy it.
Could you post a link to where the english edition is available to purchase?
If I want english explanations of grammar I usually use this site http://www.imabi.net
RE: N1Grammar- studying differences between similar expressions - PotbellyPig - 2016-02-20
(2016-02-20, 7:38 am)foreverunclean Wrote:(2016-02-19, 5:06 pm)PotbellyPig Wrote:(2016-02-18, 11:18 pm)rich_f Wrote: Also good for disambiguation, Nihongo no Mori!
https://www.youtube.com/user/freejapaneselessons3/playlists
I like どんなとき as a quick n' dirty reference, but I have to admit that when I'm totally lost, I go to 日本語文型辞典 for help. Also, くらべてわかる日本語表現文型辞典 is pretty useful, too.
I already bought どんなとき as a ebook. I like that so I can cut and paste into a spreadsheet. For purpose of nuances between similar forms, which of the other books would you recommend? Also do any of them have the description in English? I'm at the point that I don't usually use translations but for things like nuances which are tricky, it can help. It seems like you like 日本語文型辞典.
Edit: there seems to be a just published English edition of the above mentioned dictionary. If you think it will help with the problems I am having, I'll buy it.
Could you post a link to where the english edition is available to purchase?
If I want english explanations of grammar I usually use this site http://www.imabi.net
http://www.amazon.co.jp/Handbook-Japanese-Patterns-Teachers-Learners/dp/4874246788/ref=pd_cp_14_3?ie=UTF8&refRID=0M23C37HNAAD1JEFPMZQ
RE: N1Grammar- studying differences between similar expressions - foreverunclean - 2016-02-20
(2016-02-20, 9:37 am)PotbellyPig Wrote:(2016-02-20, 7:38 am)foreverunclean Wrote:(2016-02-19, 5:06 pm)PotbellyPig Wrote:(2016-02-18, 11:18 pm)rich_f Wrote: Also good for disambiguation, Nihongo no Mori!
https://www.youtube.com/user/freejapaneselessons3/playlists
I like どんなとき as a quick n' dirty reference, but I have to admit that when I'm totally lost, I go to 日本語文型辞典 for help. Also, くらべてわかる日本語表現文型辞典 is pretty useful, too.
I already bought どんなとき as a ebook. I like that so I can cut and paste into a spreadsheet. For purpose of nuances between similar forms, which of the other books would you recommend? Also do any of them have the description in English? I'm at the point that I don't usually use translations but for things like nuances which are tricky, it can help. It seems like you like 日本語文型辞典.
Edit: there seems to be a just published English edition of the above mentioned dictionary. If you think it will help with the problems I am having, I'll buy it.
Could you post a link to where the english edition is available to purchase?
If I want english explanations of grammar I usually use this site http://www.imabi.net
http://www.amazon.co.jp/Handbook-Japanese-Patterns-Teachers-Learners/dp/4874246788/ref=pd_cp_14_3?ie=UTF8&refRID=0M23C37HNAAD1JEFPMZQ
Awesome! Thanks! Seem's great but I'll be resisting buying it as I have too many grammar books
As for whether it will help with your problems, there is the Japanese version available with a quick google search. Then you can decide if the English Version would help you. I would buy the English version not the japanese version if it is useful for you.
Also check out the くらべてわかる book and workbooks. The beginner/intermediate workbook is also available with a quick google search. But I would buy main book/dictionary and the intermediate/advanced ones (or all three) as they are useful for your problem