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(Kanji Koohii) Dealing with Joyo variants - Printable Version

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(Kanji Koohii) Dealing with Joyo variants - rodent - 2016-01-30

I was studying in RtK 6th edition, and came across frame 1011, stationery, which appears in the book as 䇳 (primitives, bamboo, float). On the Kanji Koohii site, the character appears as 箋 (bamboo, double fiesta).

It looks like there are a number of these Joyo variants, which seem especially common among those that were newly added to the Joyo list in 2010. While I would simply add both variants as flash cards, it seems that that isn't possible with the "bamboo, float" version of the "stationery" character. (Try copying and pasting the character and adding its flashcard; it won't work.)

I did some research and found that the "bamboo, float" version of this character is in the CJK Unified Ideographs Extension A:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CJK_Unified_Ideographs_Extension_A

and has Unicode point 0x41F3. To see it on the Wikipedia page, search for 41Fx, and look at the fourth character from the right, and you'll see the "bamboo, float" version.

Does Kanji Koohii currently support all the blocks of the CJK Unified Ideographs, or just the main block? It looks like there are extension blocks A through E, as well as the CJK Compatibility Ideographs. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CJK_Unified_Ideographs, table of contents. It seems like Extension A was specifically designed for variants (at least, that's how Wikipedia describes it).

RE: (Kanji Koohii) Dealing with Joyo variants - yudantaiteki - 2016-01-31

Incidentally, 箋 is a relatively common character in the stuff I read for my research (because it refers to a commentary), and I have never seen 䇳.

RE: (Kanji Koohii) Dealing with Joyo variants - anotherjohn - 2016-01-31

䇳 is used in zero words in JMdict and doesn't even have any readings in KANJIDIC.

Only (Japanese) use 'in the wild' seems to be in writing 処方箋 as 処方䇳, probably as the result of some kind of error:

処方箋 8,960,000 hits.
処方䇳 563 hits.

RE: (Kanji Koohii) Dealing with Joyo variants - tetsueda - 2016-01-31

(2016-01-31, 10:17 am)anotherjohn Wrote: 䇳 is used in zero words in JMdict and doesn't even have any readings in KANJIDIC.

Only (Japanese) use 'in the wild' seems to be in writing 処方箋 as 処方䇳, probably as the result of some kind of error:

処方箋 8,960,000 hits.
処方䇳 563 hits.

I can't say I've seen the "simplified" (it's not really any simpler) form either, but it's probably more common in handwriting, but that usage is not really googleable.

RE: (Kanji Koohii) Dealing with Joyo variants - Matthias - 2016-01-31

Originally "stationery" is frame 2991 and there it is 箋.
It just includes the comment "The standard abbreviation one would have expected here—and which is likely to appear in official lists in the years ahead—appears in the following examples of common newer forms you already know":

(I.1286) 践
(I.367) 桟
(I.368) 銭
(II.2735) 賎

The reading example Heisig gave is also included in Core 6k (and not rare):
便箋 (びんせん) → letter paper, stationery

Did he change this to 便䇳 ? [As there are no readings in RTK1, it would be included in an updated RTK2.]

Actually In Katsuo's comparison sheet it is for the 3rd and 6th the same kanji: 箋

RE: (Kanji Koohii) Dealing with Joyo variants - rodent - 2016-02-15

Keep in mind that this thread should not merely be about that one character. I was raising the more general issue of Joyo variants.

As another example, Kanji Koohii has the kanji 嗅, with keyword "sniff". In Koohii, there is the short stroke that makes the "St. Bernard dog" into a "chihuahua". In RTK 6th edition, the short stroke isn't there, meaning that it uses the "St. Bernard" version.

I don't even know how to print the one without the short final stroke. Is there a way to type the other version?

Other variant examples:

塡 versus 填. For this one, Koohii supports both characters, but one of them is considered outside of RTK 6th edition. I have no issues with this.
喩 versus 喻. For this one, Koohii supports both.

I'm much more concerned about variants generally, than any particular instance of a variant. If I'm learning a certain Kanji, I'd want to know not only the way Heisig presents it, but other common variants so I can learn to recognize those also. Right now, the only way I know that I should learn a variant is if Heisig presents it one way, and I see it a different way on Koohii.

Also, I have a copy of The Kodansha Kanji Learner's Course, which has an appendix of Joyo variants. I'd like to be able to review those using Koohii too, but sometimes I don't know how to type the variants.

RE: (Kanji Koohii) Dealing with Joyo variants - rodent - 2016-02-15

(2016-01-31, 11:22 am)Matthias Wrote: Originally "stationery" is frame 2991 and there it is 箋.
It just includes the comment "The standard abbreviation one would have expected here—and which is likely to appear in official lists in the years ahead—appears in the following examples of common newer forms you already know":

(I.1286) 践
(I.367) 桟
(I.368) 銭
(II.2735) 賎

The reading example Heisig gave is also included in Core 6k (and not rare):
便箋 (びんせん) → letter paper, stationery

Did he change this to 便䇳 ? [As there are no readings in RTK1, it would be included in an updated RTK2.]

Actually In Katsuo's comparison sheet it is for the 3rd and 6th the same kanji: 箋

I have the 4th edition of RTK2, and yes, he did change it to 便䇳.

RE: (Kanji Koohii) Dealing with Joyo variants - Dudeist - 2016-02-15

I've noticed a lot of differences between the book and my deck.

The Self version of snake gets switched to the zodiac version [IIRC I've not gotten that far yet] an awful lot
A lot of large gets turned into dog.

It is kinda confusing. I usually stick with the book.

I don't mind the minor variants like switching the top line of say to a drop but when the variants actually involve different Kanji it is a bit annoying.

RE: (Kanji Koohii) Dealing with Joyo variants - fkb9g - 2016-02-15

(2016-02-15, 1:00 pm)rodent Wrote: As another example, Kanji Koohii has the kanji 嗅, with keyword "sniff". In Koohii, there is the short stroke that makes the "St. Bernard dog" into a "chihuahua". In RTK 6th edition, the short stroke isn't there, meaning that it uses the "St. Bernard" version.

I don't even know how to print the one without the short final stroke. Is there a way to type the other version?

A clue for 嗅 can be found in the charts for the Unicode Ideographic Variation Database. It looks like they are registered variants of the same codepoint:

[Image: 55C5_variants.png]

RE: (Kanji Koohii) Dealing with Joyo variants - fkb9g - 2016-02-15

If you have a Macintosh computer, the Character viewer (built in to OS X) is a handy way to look up characters related to a kanji.

[Image: OS_X_Characters_viewer.png]

RE: (Kanji Koohii) Dealing with Joyo variants - yudantaiteki - 2016-02-15

There's no easy answer to this question, and the text in the Joyo List that deals with this issue is confusingly written and doesn't really clarify things.

RE: (Kanji Koohii) Dealing with Joyo variants - rodent - 2016-02-15

(2016-02-15, 9:24 pm)fkb9g Wrote:
(2016-02-15, 1:00 pm)rodent Wrote: As another example, Kanji Koohii has the kanji 嗅, with keyword "sniff". In Koohii, there is the short stroke that makes the "St. Bernard dog" into a "chihuahua". In RTK 6th edition, the short stroke isn't there, meaning that it uses the "St. Bernard" version.

I don't even know how to print the one without the short final stroke. Is there a way to type the other version?

A clue for 嗅 can be found in the charts for the Unicode Ideographic Variation Database. It looks like they are registered variants of the same codepoint:

[Image: 55C5_variants.png]

Would you point me to a site where you found this? I tried looking for "Unicode Ideographic Variation Database", and found this:

http://www.unicode.org/charts/PDF/U4E00.pdf

But in this pdf, all the versions of the "sniff" kanji look the same (they all have the little dot to the upper right of the "St. Bernard", making it a "chihuahua").

RE: (Kanji Koohii) Dealing with Joyo variants - fkb9g - 2016-02-15

(2016-02-15, 1:00 pm)rodent Wrote: Keep in mind that this thread should not merely be about that one character. I was raising the more general issue of Joyo variants.

I've created a tab separated text file with the shinjitai and kyūjitai variants for the Jōyō kanji (including their RTK 1 frame numbers). Here's the post from where I got the data. There are 362 Jōyō kanji with one or more kyūjitai forms. The linked file also includes unofficial variants for Jōyō kanji when they are used in RTK 1. I've pasted those below, since there are only a few:

Quote:frame keyword shinjitai unofficial
166 inlay 塡 填
308 metaphor 喩 喻
477 scold ? 叱
1011 stationery 箋 䇳
1022 basket 籠 篭
1227 peel off 剝 剥
1358 cheek 頰 頬

If I had your interest, I would learn the kyūjitai variants for the Jōyō kanji first.

(2016-02-15, 1:00 pm)rodent Wrote: Also, I have a copy of The Kodansha Kanji Learner's Course, which has an appendix of Joyo variants. I'd like to be able to review those using Koohii too, but sometimes I don't know how to type the variants.

Ah, I have it too… Appendix 8 is the Table of Nonstandard Forms.

When you've finished with the kyūjitai variants for the Jōyō kanji, you might feel you've have passed the point of diminishing returns. Let us know when you get there  :)

RE: (Kanji Koohii) Dealing with Joyo variants - fkb9g - 2016-02-15

(2016-02-15, 10:08 pm)rodent Wrote: Would you point me to a site where you found this? I tried looking for "Unicode Ideographic Variation Database", and found this:

http://www.unicode.org/charts/PDF/U4E00.pdf

But in this pdf, all the versions of the "sniff" kanji look the same (they all have the little dot to the upper right of the "St. Bernard", making it a "chihuahua").

Here's the Ideographic Variation Database site. The screenshot I took was from this document [PDF, 90MB].

The nice thing about these collections is that only Japanese characters are included.

RE: (Kanji Koohii) Dealing with Joyo variants - rodent - 2016-02-15

(2016-02-15, 10:12 pm)fkb9g Wrote:
(2016-02-15, 1:00 pm)rodent Wrote: Keep in mind that this thread should not merely be about that one character. I was raising the more general issue of Joyo variants.

I've created a tab separated text file with the shinjitai and kyūjitai variants for the Jōyō kanji (including their RTK 1 frame numbers). Here's the post from where I got the data. There are 362 Jōyō kanji with one or more kyūjitai forms. The linked file also includes unofficial variants for Jōyō kanji when they are used in RTK 1. I've pasted those below, since there are only a few:

Quote:frame keyword shinjitai unofficial
166 inlay 塡 填
308 metaphor 喩 喻
477 scold ? 叱
1011 stationery 箋 䇳
1022 basket 籠 篭
1227 peel off 剝 剥
1358 cheek 頰 頬

If I had your interest, I would learn the kyūjitai variants for the Jōyō kanji first.

(2016-02-15, 1:00 pm)rodent Wrote: Also, I have a copy of The Kodansha Kanji Learner's Course, which has an appendix of Joyo variants. I'd like to be able to review those using Koohii too, but sometimes I don't know how to type the variants.

Ah, I have it too… Appendix 8 is the Table of Nonstandard Forms.

When you've finished with the kyūjitai variants for the Jōyō kanji, you might feel you've have passed the point of diminishing returns. Let us know when you get there  Smile

I don't plan to learn all the kyujitai variants. If the shinjitai is official, then I'll probably just learn that form. The fact that there are only seven that you've listed is reassuring though. It means that I don't have too much to worry about. I'll take your word for it about the diminishing returns; I probably have more important things to learn at this point than learning the different variants. (vocab, grammar, listening and reading practice, etc.)

RE: (Kanji Koohii) Dealing with Joyo variants - fkb9g - 2016-02-15

(2016-02-15, 10:19 pm)rodent Wrote: I don't plan to learn all the kyujitai variants. If the shinjitai is official, then I'll probably just learn that form. The fact that there are only seven that you've listed is reassuring though. It means that I don't have too much to worry about. I'll take your word for it about the diminishing returns; I probably have more important things to learn at this point than learning the different variants. (vocab, grammar, listening and reading practice, etc.)

Here are a some links to help round out the story of how it all went wrong with these characters:

喩 versus 喻
Turning the Other Cheek
Oddball Additions to the Joyo Set

In short, the Japanese government, JIS, and Unicode Consortium are all fallible. Go with the shinjitai forms in your own writing and don't waste too much thought.

RE: (Kanji Koohii) Dealing with Joyo variants - yudantaiteki - 2016-02-16

(2016-02-15, 10:37 pm)fkb9g Wrote: Go with the shinjitai forms in your own writing and don't waste too much thought.

Unfortunately I don't think it's this simple because some of the shinjitai forms aren't in actual use. The difference between the 嗅 (for instance) isn't a big deal because it's just one small jot, but if you try to write 便䇳　you're going to get some strange looks.

RE: (Kanji Koohii) Dealing with Joyo variants - fkb9g - 2016-02-16

(2016-02-16, 10:59 am)yudantaiteki Wrote: Unfortunately I don't think it's this simple because some of the shinjitai forms aren't in actual use. The difference between the 嗅 (for instance) isn't a big deal because it's just one small jot, but if you try to write 便䇳 you're going to get some strange looks.

The shinjitai form is 便箋 (source). Frame 1011 (RTK 6th edition) acknowledges this. Heisig was predicting 䇳 would become the shinjitai form but that now looks unlikely.

Other examples applicable to beginner/intermediate learners would be appreciated.

I am guessing that as computer use in Japan fully transitions from JIS to Unicode encodings, the shinjitai forms will replace the exceptions more and more.

RE: (Kanji Koohii) Dealing with Joyo variants - fkb9g - 2016-03-06

(2016-02-15, 1:00 pm)rodent Wrote: I don't even know how to print the one without the short final stroke. Is there a way to type the other version?

If you are using an OpenType font with alternate glyphs, you can type the alternate version(s) of a character, provided your application supports it.

In OS X, select a character and choose the Format → Fonts → Show Fonts menu option. Then click the gear menu and choose Typography…. Here are the options you'll see:

[Image: OS_X_Typography_options.png]

There are some interesting options for text spacing, furigana (ruby), and vertical text, but we are interested in the Alternates options:

[Image: OS_X_Typography_alternates_menu.png]

I tested this out with a Mincho-style OpenType font and character 喫 CJK UNIFIED IDEOGRAPH-55AB using OS X TextEdit. Here is the primary glyph plus the three variants:

[Image: 55A5_variants.png]

Anki supports TrueType fonts only, so it is not possible to specify alternate glyphs for a code point in Anki. You'd need font support for the glyph you want at a different code point. The most important variants are the kyūjitai variants, and they already have distinct code points in the Unicode and Shift JIS encodings

RE: (Kanji Koohii) Dealing with Joyo variants - jmignot - 2016-03-10

(2016-02-15, 10:12 pm)fkb9g Wrote: I've created a tab separated text file with the shinjitai and kyūjitai variants for the Jōyō kanji (including their RTK 1 frame numbers). Here's the post from where I got the data. There are 362 Jōyō kanji with one or more kyūjitai forms. 
Does Heisig always use the shinjitai version (or an "unofficial" one), or does he sometimes use the kyūjitai?

RE: (Kanji Koohii) Dealing with Joyo variants - fkb9g - 2016-03-12

(2016-03-10, 4:48 pm)jmignot Wrote: Does Heisig always use the shinjitai version (or an "unofficial" one), or does he sometimes use the kyūjitai?

In the cases where a kyūjitai character is used, the RTK keyword is the same as its associated shinjitai keyword but appended with "[old]." These frames are found in RTK Volume 3 Chapter 6, Old and Alternate Forms.

I have not seen any kyūjitai characters in Volume 1.

RE: (Kanji Koohii) Dealing with Joyo variants - jmignot - 2016-03-13

Coming back to the practical use of the RevTK site, what could be a reasonable approach for a user to
i) pick up a consistent set of writings (official or not) which are most commonly used in Japan nowadays, and
ii) make sure that these writings are the ones that will actually be displayed in his browser when studying or reviewing in RevTK.
Does this require installing a specific font (how about the font with numbers indicating stroke order—which writings does it use?), changing the browser setup, etc.? How does this depend on the OS (Windows/MacOS/linux)?
Another related question is how can one include different writings of a kanji in the text of a flashcard  for comparison, while making sure they will be displayed unaltered?
To me this whole font issue in browsers looks like black magic…

If clear answers could be given, it would probably be worthwhile to document them in the wiki.

RE: (Kanji Koohii) Dealing with Joyo variants - rodent - 2016-03-13

(2016-03-13, 3:29 am)jmignot Wrote: Coming back to the practical use of the RevTK site, what could be a reasonable approach for a user to
i) pick up a consistent set of writings (official or not) which are most commonly used in Japan nowadays, and
ii) make sure that these writings are the ones that will actually be displayed in his browser when studying or reviewing in RevTK.
Does this require installing a specific font (how about the font with numbers indicating stroke order—which writings does it use?), changing the browser setup, etc.? How does this depend on the OS (Windows/MacOS/linux)?
Another related question is how can one include different writings of a kanji in the text of a flashcard  for comparison, while making sure they will be displayed unaltered?
To me this whole font issue in browsers looks like black magic…

If clear answers could be given, it would probably be worthwhile to document them in the wiki.

Thanks for the coherent summary. I think this captures my concerns fairly well.

RE: (Kanji Koohii) Dealing with Joyo variants - fkb9g - 2016-03-13

(2016-03-13, 3:29 am)jmignot Wrote: Coming back to the practical use of the RevTK site, what could be a reasonable approach for a user to
i) pick up a consistent set of writings (official or not) which are most commonly used in Japan nowadays, and
ii) make sure that these writings are the ones that will actually be displayed in his browser when studying or reviewing in RevTK.
Does this require installing a specific font (how about the font with numbers indicating stroke order—which writings does it use?), changing the browser setup, etc.? How does this depend on the OS (Windows/MacOS/linux)?
Another related question is how can one include different writings of a kanji in the text of a flashcard  for comparison, while making sure they will be displayed unaltered?
To me this whole font issue in browsers looks like black magic…

If clear answers could be given, it would probably be worthwhile to document them in the wiki.

As a practical matter, just use the shinjitai ("new") characters from the list of jōyō kanji on Wikipedia. The current code points for all of the jōyō characters (2010 revision) have been in Unicode since at least version 3.1 (2001) and are fully supported on all reasonably current browsers and operating systems (starting with Windows Vista and OS X 10.1).

For either jōyō or non-jōyō kanji, type kana and your operating system will auto-complete the appropriate form. If you're using an electronic dictionary, whatever comes up first should be OK.

Some legacy applications cannot display characters represented as surrogate pairs, such as U+20B9F (RTK key word: scold) and others added to Unicode in 2001 or later. I have noticed issues with RevTK, the Kanji Koohi forum, and Qt (used by the Anki desktop application). You can substitute U+53F1 叱 in place of U+20B9F and everyone will know what you mean. Only one jōyō kanji is encoded as a surrogate pair. For more information, see this blog post.

RE: (Kanji Koohii) Dealing with Joyo variants - jmignot - 2016-03-15

Thank you for these explanations. The table in the blog is quite clear. However, I still have a problem with the way kanji are displayed in the koohii site.

For instance, the blog mentions that the kanji 遜 was added to the jouyou list in its non-simplified form, with two drops in the "road" primitive. This is also how it is now displayed one line above in my browser (Firefox).
However, if I go to the RevTK site and display this character in "study" mode, it appears with only one dot, both in the standard display font, and in the alternate font (with stroke order) which is triggered when I hover the pointer over the character.

This is the kind of inconsistency I had in mind in my original post. I do not quite understand where it comes from and how to fix it.