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What are the little details that make a grammar useful/nice? - Printable Version

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What are the little details that make a grammar useful/nice? - torajiro - 2016-01-30

Hello,

I am trying to help a friend who has been working hard writing a grammar of Intermediate Japanese in Spanish and now wants to put everything together in a useful and pleasant format both for a printed and a digital version.
Since many people here have tried so many books, I was hoping that you could share with us your insights and help us make something that is of real, practical use.

The text does not want to be a grammar dictionary as the Japan Times Basic/Intermediate/Advanced grammars, but is heavily influenced by them.

Of course, content is of primary importance, i.e. good explanations, good examples, good tables and good indexes, but here I am also thinking about all the other little details, such as small icons for specific functions, text boxes and backgrounds for important parts, the use of the various font types and styles (such as bold and italics), explanatory drawings and charts, color on the side of the pages to mark sections: basically anything that made your use of the grammar more effective and pleasant.

Specific inputs on other aspects, such as the "approach used" are also welcome, an example would be contrasting one grammatical form with similar ones, showing the differences, many types of indexes, cross-references and so on.

The best would be if you could not just write your comments/opinions/suggestions/warnings but also post pictures of the elements you refer to, in order to get a clearer idea.

Thank you all in advance,

Torajiro

RE: What are the little details that make a grammar useful/nice? - john555 - 2016-01-30

Here's what I like in any type of Japanese language grammar:

1.  The example sentences use common words that the reader will likely be familiar with.  (E.g., in giving an example of the use of the preposition "on", use a simple example like "the book is ON the table" as opposed to "your insightful interpretation of the reasons behind the economic meltdown are ON the mark."). 

2.  Each example sentence should be given in three forms:

-kanji and kana;
-romaji transcription;
-English (or in your case Spanish) translation

3.  All the important "grammar" words e.g., naru should be listed in the index at the back of the book.

RE: What are the little details that make a grammar useful/nice? - RawrPk - 2016-01-30

Hello there! I agree that details are just as important as content (i.e tables, font stylizing, symbols, etc) because it helps the content be more readable. Here is a good example from the grammar book 「どんなときどう使う日本語表現文型200 」http://www.alc.co.jp/book/7013014/

I own the older edition of the book which reflects the old JLPT levels. I like the simplicity of how everything is put together. The only issue I have with the newer edition is that they changed the icon level from flower pots to mugs. The reason I like the flower pots is because they show the reader that they are progressing in difficulty/level just by viewing the icons going from 2 leaves to a full flower. Going from leaves to full flower shows "growth" and I like that analogy. A mug with numbers just doesn't have the same appeal to me imo. Here is a pic I took of my book reflecting the difference between the 2nd preview page in the website
http://imgur.com/fFB7LKs

I agree with john555 that an index is essential. Also a well thought out Table of Contents.

RE: What are the little details that make a grammar useful/nice? - vix86 - 2016-01-31

An intermediate Japanese grammar book should not have romaji in it. Shesh.

RE: What are the little details that make a grammar useful/nice? - pepperdirt - 2016-01-31

(2016-01-31, 6:18 am)vix86 Wrote: An intermediate Japanese grammar book should not have romaji in it. Shesh.

Hear, hear! (sorry, this was too good). I can't think of anything myself. Maybe more Japanese? Like in addition to English, give a small summary in Japanese. A sentence or two, or whatever. That sounds cool.

I've found I like to create my own index in my books. Sometimes I liked an example sentence or something that wasn't listed in the index. So, that's more a suggestion to the readers than to the creators of a book..

RE: What are the little details that make a grammar useful/nice? - zdo_vision - 2016-01-31

Depending on the structure of the book, you can put the Spanish / English translation at the end of the book, in a separate chapter.
Another idea (if you can afford to publish in colors) is to put the translation under the original sentence, but colored in red, then if you use a red transparent plastic filter you can hide it if you need it, or let it visible in the absence of the filter. I know this book works like this.

RE: What are the little details that make a grammar useful/nice? - john555 - 2016-01-31

(2016-01-31, 6:18 am)vix86 Wrote: An intermediate Japanese grammar book should not have romaji in it. Shesh.

Nonsense.  Even advanced Japanese grammars have romaji, like this one recently published by Routledge:

http://www.amazon.com/Japanese-Comprehensive-Routledge-comprehensive-grammars/dp/0415687373/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1454268583&sr=8-1&keywords=routledge+japanese+grammar%5C

And also, you need romaji so that people studying linguistics can study features of Japanese without knowing kanji/kana.

RE: What are the little details that make a grammar useful/nice? - pm215 - 2016-01-31

(2016-01-31, 2:30 pm)john555 Wrote: Nonsense.  Even advanced Japanese grammars have romaji, like this one recently published by Routledge
Some do, some don't. There's been a gradual move away from romaji I think in works aimed at Japanese learners, though certainly many still use them. For instance the DAJG (a generally very well regarded grammar book) limits its use of romaji to the heading words; all the example sentences are kanji+kana with furigana only.Romaji-*only* would I think these days be a definite mistake, though in past decades that was not an uncommon choice. Personally I would consider no-romaji a plus point, though I wouldn't avoid a book just because it included romaji.
Quote:And also, you need romaji so that people studying linguistics can study features of Japanese without knowing kanji/kana.
Are those people part of the target market for this book? Are they a large enough group to make it worth adding features targeted at them (with the implicit cost of taking space that could have been used for other things)? Books aimed at a general linguistics audience obviously use romaji, but it doesn't sound like this is that kind of book.

RE: What are the little details that make a grammar useful/nice? - RawrPk - 2016-01-31

(2016-01-31, 11:34 am)zdo_vision Wrote: Depending on the structure of the book, you can put the Spanish / English translation at the end of the book, in a separate chapter.
Another idea (if you can afford to publish in colors) is to put the translation under the original sentence, but colored in red, then if you use a red transparent plastic filter you can hide it if you need it, or let it visible in the absence of the filter. I know this book works like this.
Wow! That's pretty neat with the red text! I know that there are highlighters but a book that does the red coloring for you? Too cool Big Grin its N3 level too so I might look into getting this

RE: What are the little details that make a grammar useful/nice? - CureDolly - 2016-01-31

Romaji would definitely be a minus in my view. It helps to form very bad mental habits in how one sees Japanese.

I am actually experimenting with typing directly in kana at the moment to help break the subconscious romaji link. I know Japanese people mostly use romaji input but they are thinking in kana in the first place.

Whether one uses a kana keyboard or not (I don't expect the idea to become popular!) I do think textbooks should not be reinforcing the romaji mental habit in learners.

RE: What are the little details that make a grammar useful/nice? - Bokusenou - 2016-01-31

Interesting idea typing in kana. I don't do it on my computer, but I use kana input on my phone, and it's much quicker than using romaji once you get the hang of it.

RE: What are the little details that make a grammar useful/nice? - RawrPk - 2016-01-31

I do the same as Bokusenou in the way I input Japanese. Btw @CureDolly, are the kana keyboard stickers you photographed specific for mac? Or can it be used for a PC laptop as well? I have black keys/white text so the color isn't the issue.

RE: What are the little details that make a grammar useful/nice? - vix86 - 2016-01-31

(2016-01-31, 2:30 pm)john555 Wrote: Nonsense.  Even advanced Japanese grammars have romaji, like this one recently published by Routledge:

http://www.amazon.com/Japanese-Comprehensive-Routledge-comprehensive-grammars/dp/0415687373/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1454268583&sr=8-1&keywords=routledge+japanese+grammar%5C

And also, you need romaji so that people studying linguistics can study features of Japanese without knowing kanji/kana.
I don't own a single book or ever seen a book past "beginner" level that had romaji. The fact that someone has done it, make me actually think less of that book. Romaji is a crutch and the linguistics argument is pretty dumb since most advanced grammar books that I've seen are written by linguists and they didn't include it. Linguists aren't ever going to be your main market anyhow. Romaji wastes space. You can dump it and add more example sentences. If you are an intermediate in Japanese, you should be trying to ween your self off romaji is the main point.

RE: What are the little details that make a grammar useful/nice? - john555 - 2016-01-31

(2016-01-31, 8:09 pm)vix86 Wrote:
(2016-01-31, 2:30 pm)john555 Wrote: Nonsense.  Even advanced Japanese grammars have romaji, like this one recently published by Routledge:

http://www.amazon.com/Japanese-Comprehensive-Routledge-comprehensive-grammars/dp/0415687373/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1454268583&sr=8-1&keywords=routledge+japanese+grammar%5C

And also, you need romaji so that people studying linguistics can study features of Japanese without knowing kanji/kana.
I don't own a single book or ever seen a book past "beginner" level that had romaji. The fact that someone has done it, make me actually think less of that book. Romaji is a crutch and the linguistics argument is pretty dumb since most advanced grammar books that I've seen are written by linguists and they didn't include it. Linguists aren't ever going to be your main market anyhow. Romaji wastes space. You can dump it and add more example sentences. If you are an intermediate in Japanese, you should be trying to ween your self off romaji is the main point.

Here's a newsflash for you:  I don't care what you think.

RE: What are the little details that make a grammar useful/nice? - sholum - 2016-01-31

(2016-01-31, 9:15 pm)john555 Wrote:
(2016-01-31, 8:09 pm)vix86 Wrote:
(2016-01-31, 2:30 pm)john555 Wrote: Nonsense.  Even advanced Japanese grammars have romaji, like this one recently published by Routledge:

http://www.amazon.com/Japanese-Comprehensive-Routledge-comprehensive-grammars/dp/0415687373/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1454268583&sr=8-1&keywords=routledge+japanese+grammar%5C

And also, you need romaji so that people studying linguistics can study features of Japanese without knowing kanji/kana.
I don't own a single book or ever seen a book past "beginner" level that had romaji. The fact that someone has done it, make me actually think less of that book. Romaji is a crutch and the linguistics argument is pretty dumb since most advanced grammar books that I've seen are written by linguists and they didn't include it. Linguists aren't ever going to be your main market anyhow. Romaji wastes space. You can dump it and add more example sentences. If you are an intermediate in Japanese, you should be trying to ween your self off romaji is the main point.

Here's a newsflash for you:  I don't care what you think.

Do this somewhere else please...

I will second the suggestion of not including romaji, though; ink and paper are expensive, so a grammar that's intended for learners who should already know kana shouldn't waste resources on including romaji.

I also second the idea of using a lot of examples; a couple of resources I've looked at only give one or two examples, and they're not always the best illustration of the grammar point.

RE: What are the little details that make a grammar useful/nice? - pepperdirt - 2016-02-01

Well, after reading, I guess I can understand using romanji ONLY in conjuncture with kana, however, this is like many say, "a waste of resources." I'd like a kana+漢字, or Japanese text only textbook myself... you know what I mean

RE: What are the little details that make a grammar useful/nice? - CureDolly - 2016-02-01

(2016-01-31, 8:04 pm)RawrPk Wrote: I do the same as Bokusenou in the way I input Japanese. Btw @CureDolly, are the kana keyboard stickers you photographed specific for mac? Or can it be used for a PC laptop as well? I have black keys/white text so the color isn't the issue.

Actually I think these were made for Windows computers. A few of the stickers are actually wrong for Mac (if anyone wants I can give a guide to what is where for Mac users - it only affects a few keys and you soon get used to it).

You can get black, white or transparent, possibly some other color schemes too. I think they are all PC-oriented as Mac is still a minority machine. Just do a search on eBay for Japanese keyboard stickers.

My mobile device is where I started using kana input too.

RE: What are the little details that make a grammar useful/nice? - sholum - 2016-02-01

Be careful about your keyboard layout though, some keyboards (mine included) don't have the extra keys necessary for kana input. In fact, I'm fairly sure this will be true for most English keyboards.

You could always order a keyboard if you need to, but it'll cost more than stickers.

RE: What are the little details that make a grammar useful/nice? - CureDolly - 2016-02-01

(2016-02-01, 1:45 am)sholum Wrote: Be careful about your keyboard layout though, some keyboards (mine included) don't have the extra keys necessary for kana input. In fact, I'm fairly sure this will be true for most English keyboards.

You could always order a keyboard if you need to, but it'll cost more than stickers.

Western computers actually use workarounds so that you can use a standard Western keyboard for kana input. A couple of keys need to be shifted. を is shift-わ. I think this is the only full-sized moji that needs a shift but the 。and 、also do. Mildly less than optimal but it gets over the lack of keys with very little pain.

On Mac ろ is shift-け (on the "-key). On Windows ろ is on the ~ key with no shift, which seems more sensible to me. One of the minor differences that make the stickers slightly off on Mac. But both machines accommodate full kana input using a Western keyboard.

RE: What are the little details that make a grammar useful/nice? - torajiro - 2016-02-01

Dear all, thank you for the many replies, please keep on going, every comment and opinion is valuable, but please try not to fight among yourselves. You are all helping and I am very grateful for that.

It's a sort of big brainstorming, no one is better than the others, each one of us simply focuses on certain things and others on other things. Please all share your ideas.

Now, to get back to the topic, I think that the pictures of some of the books you suggest to use as an inspiration are very useful. Also the fact of using common intermediate level words is nice.

The idea of the red ink is nice, but I don't know if it will be feasable given the increase of costs, perhaps the ebook version will have the option to hide, unhide text.
Similarly the addition of romaji is a bit tricky because it would make the printed book much longer (and expensive to produce and sell), perhaps a good solution would be to have two digital versions, one with romaji, one without, or again, as for the translations, the hide/unhide feature.

Please keep on going with the comments, the more ideas I am exposed to, the better!!

Also, how do you think indexes and cross references should be made?
Do you like to have many examples to better understand the use in context or, when you're consulting a grammar book, do you prefer a terser style and too many sentences become distracting?

RE: What are the little details that make a grammar useful/nice? - zx573 - 2016-02-01

(2016-02-01, 6:06 am)torajiro Wrote: Also, how do you think indexes and cross references should be made?
Do you like to have many examples to better understand the use in context or, when you're consulting a grammar book, do you prefer a terser style and too many sentences become distracting?
If it makes its own headline (or whatever you want to call it), it should have a spot in the index. For example, if your book lists から, からある, からいうと, etc, then they should have their own indexes. If the headline has multiple, different grammars in it (such as お and ご which can be used the same for the most part), then they should be placed under both the おｓ and the ごs so I don't have to search in a different place to find it. If a grammar point has multiple usages, then in my opinion it should have its own entry in the index specifying the grammar and its usage (which should not be long). To give an example of a book with an excellent index, maybe look at Nihongo Hyogen Bunkei Jiten Dictionary of Essential Japanese Expressions. This book has helped me a lot when I needed to look up grammar. The layout and everything about it is excellent in my opinion.


Here's an example of the index in this book:
[Image: 33MK9ld.png]
It's organized by syllables, contains all grammar explained in the book and what page number, and clearly differentiates between multiple grammar points if needed.

I also really like the way the book lays out the grammar explanations.
[Image: 1sJxRvN.png]
It gives the explanations in Japanese, English, Chinese, and Korean. I usually read the Japanese explanation first and then move on to the English if it's unclear. Every grammar point has a few example sentences as well. For any grammar points that might be difficult to explain/understand, they even provide graphs and images to help, such as the one at the bottom of this explanation to explain what time span 間 covers. It's short, to the point, and does a pretty decent job of explaining and showing how the grammar is used.

RE: What are the little details that make a grammar useful/nice? - pm215 - 2016-02-01

I like also that that index zx753 posted a copy of has extensive 'see X' entries -- often if you're looking something up you're not sure if the book lists it under ごとき or ことく, くわえて or にくわえて, etc, so having the index point you at the right place rather than having to make several guesses is nice.

RE: What are the little details that make a grammar useful/nice? - rich_f - 2016-02-01

(2016-02-01, 9:27 am)pm215 Wrote: I like also that that index zx753 posted a copy of has extensive 'see X' entries -- often if you're looking something up you're not sure if the book lists it under ごとき or ことく,  くわえて or にくわえて, etc, so having the index point you at the right place rather than having to make several guesses is nice.

Yep, this is very very important to me as well, and one of the reasons I don't like the Dictionary of XX Japanese Grammar series. Often when I'm looking for something, I can't find it. Or when I do, it's because it's put under some weird heading. It's annoying as hell. I love the どんなとき dictionary's use of "see also" or "see" references. 

I don't like the DOJG's "Oh hey, that grammar point you want to know about? Yeah, we mention it here, but we don't define it or anything." That bugs the crap out of me, too. If you don't define it or deal with it in any useful way, then why even index it? If you're going to index it or acknowledge its existence, then give it a proper entry. -_-+

If you must do a romaji index, do a kana one as well. I hate romaji indexes, they annoy the crap out of me. It throws me off when I'm looking something up across a few different books and I have to switch ordering systems. ("Uh, let's see, か, so it's under か? Oh wait, it's under "K"? Ugh.)

Same goes for entry order, too. If it's an intermediate dictionary, put the entries in kana (50おん) order. That's what your intended audience will be seeing from here on out, anyway. Switching from kana order to alphabetical order is needlessly jarring.

If you can, for the love of all that's good, USE SOME IMAGES to break up the walls of text, but only use ones that illustrate your point. Nothing like a good image or diagram to break up the walls of text and show people what's going on. Or a good image to give people an idea of how a grammar bit works. I love JTMW because it uses real manga intelligently to give examples of how grammar is used.

Don't obsess too much over the word difficulty. If the sentences sound unnatural because the words are too easy for the grammar, then it's fine to use harder words. Use the appropriate language for the grammar. It might be interesting to have a difficulty "slider" from easy words to gradually more difficult words in the sentences, but that's probably asking for too much.