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+--- Thread: New Kanji Quiz ( learn with confidence ) (/thread-13547.html)
New Kanji Quiz ( learn with confidence ) - pepperdirt - 2016-01-26
Why you should care about another Kanji Software:
#1 - Do you really know your Kanji readings+English meaning? No, I don't mean recognize them. Try opening your favorite Kanji quiz flash-cards. Now before seeing the readings, write down EVERY reading for the Kanji you see. Satisfied? No need to continue reading.
#2 - Results/Numbers. So, I argue you can learn 5 - 15 Kanji ( on-yomi/Kun-yomi + English meaning + [Maybe even some compounds that use it, if you feel so inclined ] ) a day in 1 - 3 hours respectively. This does vary person to person, so you have to do the math. So think, even 5 kanji a day for 360 days ( yeah, you may miss 6 days ), 1800 Kanj! Learn 2000+ in under a year? With effort.
#3 - There is a mnemonic in using the quiz itself. The format of the quiz ( namely the number of boxes present ) will actually aid in memorizing the readings. Of course, looking up the meanings for readings also helps, and looking at compounds that use other readings.
#4 - Quiz actually "does the work for you." I mean, you have a set course. First, take a review quiz, then after you are able to input all correctly ( 20 Questions ), you may take the Kanji Test ( 20 Qs ). The score you make on the Kanji Test will decide if you are ready for new Kanji to review or not. It will only give 5 new Kanji per Test. You review these by taking the Kanji Review. Therefore, ONLY take Kanji Test when you are confident you can answer all correctly! Else, the Quizer will annoy you with missed that Kanji for a few more tests to come.
#5 - Only Kanji Quizer you need. You can now use flash-cards for manageable pieces of information ( grammar/words/sentences? ), not for learning large amounts of information ( for one Kanji ).
Now, what everyone was wanting to know, the drawbacks.
- 1: Online test, Data concern? It doesn't take much, but per revolution of 20 questions yeidls about 0.00064MB == 640Bytes, a minimum of 3 revolutions + 1 more for the test yields: 0.0256 == 25600Bytes.
- 2: The program is new. Essentially, you along with me, will be beta testers. This means more down-time, there may be bugs to fix, no JLPT 1 yet. However, I am using it and don't see a problem with the Quizer itself.
- 3: Keyboard is a must. That rules out many users. Not to say it is not possible without one, however, this will certainly affect your progress. It is already an average of 1hr per session, take away the keyboard?
- 4: It is likely you will hit a Kanji with excess of 10 readings. This is scary, I know. There is also not much information as to why these are needed, but it is also likely you will notice these unknown readings while "reading" Japanese, then you will realize why that reading was there. Suggestion for learning these?? Spend the time to type them down, look up some meanings ( that have meaning on their own ), look at compounds, but mostly, drill yourself until you can type them all in.
Example: Kanji for life: (? cannot enter Kanji here, weird) On-yomi: sei, shou; KunYomi: ikiru, ikeru, ikasu, umu, umare, umareru, musu, ou, haeru, hayasu, ki, u, naru, nasu, nama;
( I may be missing some, but those are from memory )
- 5: The Quizer does "bite" you for wrong answers on the Kanji Test; strive for 100% accuracy. It is VERY important to only use this test when you have properly reviewed and can answer all correctly. If you miss one, it may not allow you to receive 5 new Kanji. It becomes worse when you miss one Kanji multiple times ( even in the same test ). You are warned.
- 6: The password thing is waay strict. Kinda silly, but it's there. FYI: 2 UPPER, 2 lower, 2 SPEC@AL, 2 NUMB3RS, and it checks for repeating characters... Be prepared. Other than that, all the information is one the site ( KanjiChallengeComplete.com ). It is also NOT searchable by web-browser. Likely because it is still new.
If you want to take the challenge, I challenge you to at least read how to use the quiz first, but please evaluate for yourself:
KanjiChallengeComplete.com
Thanks for at least reading this far! I pray you found something you liked.
RE: New Kanji Quiz ( learn with confidence ) - Ash_S - 2016-01-26
(2016-01-26, 2:03 pm)pepperdirt Wrote: Why you should care about another Kanji Software:
#1 - Do you really know your Kanji readings+English meaning? No, I don't mean recognize them. Try opening your favorite Kanji quiz flash-cards. Now before seeing the readings, write down EVERY reading for the Kanji you see. Satisfied? No need to continue reading.
#2 - Results/Numbers. So, I argue you can learn 5 - 15 Kanji ( on-yomi/Kun-yomi + English meaning + [Maybe even some compounds that use it, if you feel so inclined ] ) a day in 1 - 3 hours respectively. This does vary person to person, so you have to do the math. So think, even 5 kanji a day for 360 days ( yeah, you may miss 6 days ), 1800 Kanj! Learn 2000+ in under a year? With effort.
Most people here recognise that there's no point blindly memorizing the readings for each kanji and that it's better to pick up the readings as you learn vocab.
Just knowing the readings, you still don't know which vocab uses which reading. In other words, it has no use except in answering quizzes like this.
On the other hand, picking up readings with vocab, you get an idea what kinda word uses which reading so you get better predictive powers for new words too.
RE: New Kanji Quiz ( learn with confidence ) - zx573 - 2016-01-26
How is this better than something like Memrise? With Memrise, it has a few different answer types, ranging from "pick the meaning" to "type the reading".
How is it any better than using Anki with this deck that lets you type your answers, and also works on cellphones?
I personally have no interest in using tools like this anymore so I'm not really the target audience, but I'd be skeptical to be honest. Especially about the claim of it being possible to learn 1800 Kanji in a year using this because that claim seems to assume you have a 100% retention rate, which I guarantee is not the case for most people.
The following is my personal opinion when I see this website:
I personally have never really been a fan of learning Kanji on their own after a certain level. It has its place in the beginning in order to build up an initial vocabulary, but I personally like to focus on learning new vocabulary words since you learn new Kanji at the same time. I especially do not like trying to learn all of the readings of a Kanji. There's no point in knowing all of the readings of 生 if you don't understand the meaning of the words you see it in. There's also no way someone shooting for N5 is going to need to know how to read something like 生ずる(しょうずる), so why even tell them that's a possible reading at their skill level? It's information overload in my opinion. Most people in the N5/N4 (maybe N3 even) level probably only need to learn the reading of 生 as used in words such as 生きる(いきる), 生まれる (うまれる), 先生(せんせい), and *maybe* 生(なま) and 生える (はえる) in order to be able to recognize the most common readings of 生. I can think of some words that that list doesn't cover, but not too many. But from there, you can easily figure out a decent number of the words you're probably going to run into that use 生. Compare that to the number of actual readings [音] セイ ショウ [訓] い.きる い.かす い.ける う.まれる うま.れる う.まれ うまれ う.む お.う は.える は.やす き なま なま- な.る な.す む.す -う [名] あさ いき いく いけ うぶ うまい え おい ぎゅう くるみ ごせ さ じょう すぎ そ そう ちる なば にう にゅう ふ み もう よい りゅう
There's no need for 生 to be scary. Most of those readings won't show up in anything you're reading most likely. It's not a scary Kanji, so there's no need to make it into a scary Kanji.
Things without structure don't make very good study material because they are unfiltered and have too much noise that is most likely discouraging for beginners. I definitely remember trying to learn all of the readings of 生 and eventually gave up and learned 1 or 2 and learned the rest (that I know, which is still not the entire list from above) as I encountered them.
Personal opinions aside, everyone learns differently and has different goals in mind, so if something like this helps someone then cool.
RE: New Kanji Quiz ( learn with confidence ) - pepperdirt - 2016-01-26
Thanks for the input and concerns! It means a lot you would take time to post (^^)/
@ash_S: If learning all readings is blindly learning, I guess that is what I am going to try. I have done research into other options, but many Japanese will say we should learn common, all?, readings. I think it is possible.
I'll show back in a month or so, maybe post a monthly video or whatever. It seems to be working. Probably post one vid to show it in action sometime soon. Thanks
@zx573: I did not realize there was already a quiz software available that allowed typing in all answers. I would not have pursued this to the point I have, maybe.. Oh, you can use from phone, I just don't recommend ( only input method is typing )
Concerning the 100% retention rate, I'll post a video soon?, but basically using the same method others' use, spaced time repetition, I believe it is possible to achieve this. Not blindly learning all readings and Kanji either, more like this is in addition to your Japanese learning regime. Surely, you will find these exercises to be helpful as you encounter these Kanji in reading practice or whatever.
Thanks for taking time to read and reply. It is true I want to prove this method, but even more, I want to succeed with a crazy goal such as 1800 or more in a year ( with crazy retention ). I know 180 isn't much, but gotta start somewhere. I'll keep all posted. Thanks!
RE: New Kanji Quiz ( learn with confidence ) - SomeCallMeChris - 2016-01-27
(2016-01-26, 8:34 pm)pepperdirt Wrote: @ash_S: If learning all readings is blindly learning, I guess that is what I am going to try. I have done research into other options, but many Japanese will say we should learn common, all?, readings. I think it is possible.
'blindly learning' is learning all the readings with no idea how to use them.
If you want to learn all of the readings for particular character, you should learn a word that uses each reading. If a word is particularly obscure or antiquated, then perhaps you don't really need to learn that reading.
The problem with learning readings out of context is that it doesn't help you actually read Japanese.
So you know 生 can be read せい、しょう、なま、い、う、etc., and 命 can be read めい、みょう、 and いのち...
You still can't read the word 生命 , or have any idea what it means.
On the other hand, if you learn the word 生命, then you've learned something you can read, and also a common reading for each of the two characters. That's learning in context.
It's really almost always better to learn in context - learn kanji in the context of words, words in the context of sentences. Of course you have to start -somewhere-.
I've always liked to learn a common word that uses the kun-reading of a kanji when first learning a kanji. This way I've learned some useful vocabulary, and I have a way to easily enter the character into an IME when I need to look up a compound word using the same character. Plus, of course, common words are easy to find examples of so I can quickly place the word into context.
I spent I have no idea how many hours (dozens, maybe hundreds) doing similar drills... and they never made it any easier to read. RTK made it easier to read because I stopped confusing visually similar characters, and learning vocabulary made it easier to read simply because reading material is made of words.
RE: New Kanji Quiz ( learn with confidence ) - pepperdirt - 2016-01-29
Say, anyone that ends up reading this.. Is it bad to post a bi-monthly progress report here. Should it go in general discussion? that sounds a good place.. Thanks.
Here's my first progress anyhow. Not meant to watch all the way through or anything. Simply my progress and showing off the Quizer. https://youtu.be/IVsvmeT5yUU
@SomeCallMeChris
Thanks, yeah I see what was meant now. Well, it would be difficult to say it is out of context, sometimes there are compounds supplied so I can match an on-yomi with a single word. I may run into that wall of "this Kanji looks awful similar to another one, what was that reading again...? " (^^)>
I'm bout hitting 200 and haven't really had that happen bad yet ( of course, that's only 200 I know ). I can say it's fun being able to see a Kanji that I do know and put together the sounds. I cannot say I can put it together correctly, but I think it has merit ( at least because Japanese learn in this way anyhow.
RE: New Kanji Quiz ( learn with confidence ) - SomeCallMeChris - 2016-01-29
(2016-01-29, 3:21 am)pepperdirt Wrote: I think it has merit ( at least because Japanese learn in this way anyhow.
This is not really true. Yes, a lot of in-school study of kanji is similar to such drills but there's a big difference. The native Japanese schoolchild already speaks the language. In fact, they are probably already reading material that contains the kanji that they are 'studying' in this way in school. They're probably learning to write the character correctly for the first time in school (hence the writing it 100x over drills), and perhaps they're learning a few other compounds the character is used in.
It also insures that if there is a character in the 教育漢字 that a student doesn't know, they'll learn them fairly early on. For most students, that's probably a handful of characters that are in the Japanese Constitution but not used often in regular life. (One of the goals of formal kanji education is to ensure that students can read the constitution.)
In any case, 'that's the way natives learn' is generally a very bad way to approach adult learning. The way natives learn also involves many months of absorbing the language passively, and then years of being instructed all one's waking hours in the language, and then a couple years of practicing speaking with other children. All this just to meet the basic requirements of entering the first grade.
RE: New Kanji Quiz ( learn with confidence ) - CureDolly - 2016-01-29
As SomeCallMeChris says, learning kanji out of context is absolutely not the way Japanese children learn them. In fact it is the exact opposite. Japanese children learn words first (in the case of a very large basic vocabulary, before they even learn hiragana). They learn to recognize kanji in relation to words they already know, and the last part of the process is that they learn to write the kanji correctly.
They don't learn lists of readings because they are always immediately associating kanji with words they already know.
Heisig-sensei, the doyen of out-of-context kanji learning, did not say that one would be learning in the manner of a Japanese native. He said one would be putting oneself in the position of an adult Chinese student who knows practically all Japanese kanji, but out of Japanese context.
RE: New Kanji Quiz ( learn with confidence ) - Bokusenou - 2016-01-29
Once I tried to go the readings route. I'd write each kanji a billion times, and recite the readings to myself. I tried this numerous times, and always burned out in a few months. I thought that I wouldn't ever learn how to read Japanese, and became frustrated when I saw how fast the Chinese & Taiwanese students would pick up kanji at the Japanese language school I went to in Japan. Then I found RTK, completed it, and gained kanji ability similar to my former Chinese classmates. Needless to say, I never went back to the traditional method of kanji learning.
RE: New Kanji Quiz ( learn with confidence ) - pepperdirt - 2016-01-30
@SomeCallMeChris, @CureDolly:
Thanks. That is something I may not have taken into account, the having already obtained a lot of knowledge in language. And CureDolly, nice expanding on that for me. That does make a lot of sense, and I may be incorrect in assuming this will work as described.
@Bokusenou:
Thanks for the warning. I don't know if it would make any difference that I'm not actually trying to memorize writing them, but I could see how that would make anyone burn out. It doesn't take long for me to get tired when reading a Japanese book ( waay too much dictionary look-ups )! I can only imagine having to write down every Kanji I didn't know (multiple times).
@All:
Anyhow, again, I don't know if it will make a difference me saying, but these other methods of remembering Kanji aren't as appealing to me. Wait! hear me out. Basically, I think I am doing the same as these methods, I am not learning to write them though. I do make stories and such for a given Kanji. My method's problem ( I think ) is there may be a better format ( which Kanji to learn first ) that I am not following.
Methodology:
#1 I try to create some mental link with the Kanji with picture/story ( I don't write these out, simply think about them ).
#2 I try to then associate all the readings with the Kanji, normally by looking up the readings in a dictionary ( for those that stand-alone ).
#3 I also try to memorize a compound ( normally a kanji compound I learned previously ) that utilizes a reading for whatever reason. Of course, I also try to recall other like-Kanji that can give me a clue as to the on-yomi.
#4 When I run into a Kanji that is too similar ( I confused it for another one ), I look it up and either solidify my mental link with that one or re-create a mental link because it was found to be inadequate after finding the offending Kanji.
Anyhow, I'm still on a happy trail experimenting here. If I do hit a wall, get discouraged, or the like, I'll make sure to post an update. Still, 5 Kanji while reviewing on old Kanji in under 1 hour?! Sounds good to me. I'll let you know if that hour increases with Kanji learned! Trying to at least do 10 Kanji... on some days.
Thanks everyone. Forgive me, but I do not plan on changing course ( as I am already knee-deep ). I will, however, hear all advice out and take it to heart. I appreciate all the help. Truly. We are all learners here, so I'm excited to be able to contribute this 'kanji Challenge' and risking my own time/energy, becoming a spectacle, to demonstrate a new possibility.
RE: New Kanji Quiz ( learn with confidence ) - Stansfield123 - 2016-01-30
(2016-01-26, 2:03 pm)pepperdirt Wrote: Why you should care about another Kanji Software:Would native Japanese who are classified as literate be able to do that?
#1 - Do you really know your Kanji readings+English meaning? No, I don't mean recognize them. Try opening your favorite Kanji quiz flash-cards. Now before seeing the readings, write down EVERY reading for the Kanji you see. Satisfied? No need to continue reading.
RE: New Kanji Quiz ( learn with confidence ) - CureDolly - 2016-01-30
(2016-01-30, 8:52 pm)Stansfield123 Wrote:(2016-01-26, 2:03 pm)pepperdirt Wrote: Why you should care about another Kanji Software:Would native Japanese who are classified as literate be able to do that?
#1 - Do you really know your Kanji readings+English meaning? No, I don't mean recognize them. Try opening your favorite Kanji quiz flash-cards. Now before seeing the readings, write down EVERY reading for the Kanji you see. Satisfied? No need to continue reading.
Exactly. And why would they want to?
@pepperdirt
You've got an idea and you're full of enthusiasm for it. Good. Don't let me or anyone else deflect you. Your approach wouldn't be mine, but people learn in very different ways. I am not a Heisig fan either, but I know some people thrive on the method.
You are clearly open minded enough to modify your method as you go along, and to discard it if it isn't working. And that's important. But if it is working for you, keep going.
Ganbatte kudasai.
RE: New Kanji Quiz ( learn with confidence ) - pepperdirt - 2016-01-30
(2016-01-30, 8:52 pm)Stansfield123 Wrote:(2016-01-26, 2:03 pm)pepperdirt Wrote: Why you should care about another Kanji Software:Would native Japanese who are classified as literate be able to do that?
#1 - Do you really know your Kanji readings+English meaning? No, I don't mean recognize them. Try opening your favorite Kanji quiz flash-cards. Now before seeing the readings, write down EVERY reading for the Kanji you see. Satisfied? No need to continue reading.
Well... though, I'm sure they'd know a few ( which is probably what you were trying to say ). :
yeah, I plan on learning these at an accelerated pace, which means, even if I do eventually 'know' the Kanji, I will forget them with time. That's acceptable. I want to learn core Kanji REALLY FAST, then be reminded of them through reading ( even listening/speaking? ), rather than drilling myself with this quizer daily.Whoo!
RE: New Kanji Quiz ( learn with confidence ) - CureDolly - 2016-01-30
(2016-01-30, 10:15 pm)pepperdirか Wrote: I plan on learning these at an accelerated pace, which means, even if I do eventually 'know' the Kanji, I will forget them with time. That's acceptable. I want to learn core Kanji REALLY FAST, then be reminded of them through reading ( even listening/speaking? ), rather than drilling myself with this quizer daily.
Whoo!
Good strategy. Actual use is the best way to learn long-term.
Will listening and speaking help with kanji? Some people might balk at that but I think so. Vocabulary and kanji are so closely bound up together that maintaining and expanding your vocabulary by any means is going to help keep the kanji in place too.
Japanese acquisition is an organic whole and every part of it helps to support every other part.
RE: New Kanji Quiz ( learn with confidence ) - SomeCallMeChris - 2016-01-30
(2016-01-30, 9:46 pm)CureDolly Wrote: Exactly. And why would they want to?
I'm sure that was rhetorical, but natives -do- learn every reading that a Kanji has when studying for the 漢字検定
http://www.kanken.or.jp/
That is, of course, a completely optional test, but still, some people do take it.
I can't think of a reason native speakers would ever care about the English 'meaning' of a kanji.
Of course, there is no English 'meaning' for a kanji. Kanji mean the words they spell, which are not English words. When they're used to spell many different words, they can have many different meanings. Needless to say, listing -- never mind memorizing -- all the English synonyms of all the Japanese words that a given kanji can be used to spell would be a futile task.
That's why Heisig has 'keywords' rather than 'definitions' or 'meanings'. Also why some students of Japanese are rudely awakened when they come to realize that keywords -aren't- definitions.
RE: New Kanji Quiz ( learn with confidence ) - pepperdirt - 2016-01-31
(2016-01-30, 11:49 pm)SomeCallMeChris Wrote: I can't think of a reason native speakers would ever care about the English 'meaning' of a kanji.
Of course, there is no English 'meaning' for a kanji. Kanji mean the words they spell, which are not English words. (snip) -- never mind memorizing -- all the English synonyms of all the Japanese words that a given kanji can be used to spell would be a futile task.
That's why Heisig has 'keywords' rather than 'definitions' or 'meanings'. Also why some students of Japanese are rudely awakened when they come to realize that keywords -aren't- definitions.
Can't agree more. I can only presume learning a few English 'equivalents' for a given 漢字 gives me some kind of mental link that aids in memorization. Though, I also try to make some stand-alone readings do that also ( seeing a word for the first time... does need more attention. ). Even better if I already knew a 漢字 Compound.
So far, I haven't had to revise my use of English 'equivalents,' however this is something I keep in mind when looking at compounds and such. It's probably best to keep these 'equivalents' to a minimum, like you say.
@CureDolly:
Say, and CureDolly, thanks, I'll do what I can! 頑張ります (Finally Found out how to input Japanese on these forums ^^)
RE: New Kanji Quiz ( learn with confidence ) - CureDolly - 2016-01-31
It is true to say that some kanji do have exact English equivalents. Or more exactly, the words in which they are primarily used do. This is an important distinction.
So, 人 does mean person, 木 does mean tree, 水 does mean water and so on. And since these are the first kind of kanji one learns beginners can get the idea that a kanji is roughly a "word". But it isn't. And in the vast majority of cases there is no "translation" of a kanji that is of any real use at all. That is why in our method we say learn words, not kanji.
You are taking a different route and that's fine. Whatever works for you is right for you. And a lot of people do get on fine with Heisig-style keywords. But they certainly aren't anything like definitions and in some cases are quite obscure (because each keyword needs to be unique, which in turn is because the pure Heisig method assumes you have nothing but the keyword to identify the kanji).