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Life in Japan and bubbles - Zgarbas - 2016-01-08
(2016-01-07, 8:07 pm)afterglowefx Wrote:(2016-01-05, 2:29 am)Zgarbas Wrote: I don't really hang out outside campus, but every now and then I find myself interacting with expat bubbles and it's always interesting for me to see their idea of Japan and Japanese.
I'd be interested in hearing your take on the same, given you live in what is essentially just another type of bubble. No offense taken or meant, honestly curious. Although definitely a subject for another thread.
So this is something that I've been wondering about a lot lately.
I think that people inevitably end up in bubbles. It's simply how human relationships work, you end up hanging out with people of similar interests, education level, and class, and that inevitably ends up painting your image of society. For example, my impression of Romanian society has changed drastically since I've left, since I was living in a pretty comfortable bubble over there, and now I read more news and get more exposed to society as it is in general.
And it's the same with universities. I live in a bubble that is not particularly a gaijin bubble, though it definitely features many foreigners. However, it doesn't *feel* like one. One is the rather racist assumption that relates the term 'foreigner' to Caucasian, as my Chinese friends sometimes remind me that 'Hey zgarbas you're not the only foreigner here, we're *all* foreigners' - though of course, since they're Asian and I speak to them in Japanese I don't acknowledge that subconsciously. It doesn't feel like a gaijin bubble even when it is because I know that almost all of my friends can get by in Japanese if they wanted to... but every now and then I do get hit by reality when I try to introduce people from different circles of friends to one another, and my Japanese/Chinese friends have to switch to English and be uncomfortable, or my other friends use Japanese and are obviously in 'omg talking in Japanese let's not be comfortable because we worry about the language' mode. This is also known as 'Zgarbas discovers that once you get used to speaking to a person in one language, switching becomes really difficult, so they find themselves being 'that guy' who makes group conversation difficult'.
I guess for me living in Japan is just kind of like living in any other country. I don't know, it's not something that I would classify as a unique experience; maybe it helps that I know I'd be a minority anywhere I'd go. I have social anxiety so I'm used to feeling out of place and shy around strangers, so maybe that helps as well. On some level I am still really shy about being in a room where I'm the only non-Japanese, but I couldn't say how much of that is me and how much of that is the expectations built around the idea; often, harder than actually being in Japan is the fact that I have all these ideas about how it should be. I'm also shy if I end up in a room full of native English speakers, as I've found out on a couple of occasions (compliments on your English sound a lot like '日本語は上手ですね').
In many ways, I find it a lot easier to be myself here than in Romania. So that's nice. But again, the people I tend to hang out with are grad students, or people I meet at gay parades, volunteer events, and punk concerts, so maybe that's why. The fact that I mention this is in itself a consequence of the stereotypical idea of Japan: not like I meet anyone outside these circles in other countries; I mean, if I were to go to a gathering of unknown businessmen in Romania I wouldn't be disappointed if I didn't bond with anyone instantly because duh but somehow when that happens in Japan it does get to me a bit.
So what does it mean for me to live in Japan? I'm not really sure, it definitely doesn't seem to match up with any general ideas. My Japan is quite multicultural, and people are really open. Even that's an exception for some reason, since many of my colleagues (living in the same area, same conditions as I) complain about things that almost never happen to me*. And of course, coming from Eastern Europe tends to give you much lower standards for society in general, so again that probably helps.
Language wise, again, I am really comfortable, but at the same time I know it is accommodated comfort... but it would be the same in English, since most people don't understand my accent. I feel much better speaking Japanese than English, which surprised me. It's like, I'm aware that I make a million mistakes, but no one cares so I don't, so long as I can say what I want to say**. There's just a complete lack of expectation from you in Japanese, and that makes it easy for me. English is complicated and people have different levels and accents and there's this sense of expectation about it that makes it difficult for me to talk to people, so even though it's the only language I'm fluent in, I tend to avoid it; even in Korea, I only used Japanese, since it just didn't come as naturally for me to use English. I think it's because since I'm the one with the bad Japanese, people accommodate me, whereas in English I'm the one who ends up having to change accents, talking unnaturally and choosing words carefully in order to be understood.
*I have no idea why, but it seems like there are some really arbitrary conditions for people talking to you in Japanese. I went to a restaurant last week with a friend with whom I am virtually identical with, traits wise: same skin tone, same build, same height, same eye colour, similar clothes, similar haircut. The waitress comes up to me and asks me for my reservation in Japanese, but asks them about theirs in English. Blew. my. mind.
**When I can't, I get the reminder that I'm not really fluent. Frustrating when it happens, but somehow it doesn't really get to me. Keeps me humble, though.
Man, this turned into a really long post that in the end doesn't really say much. Sorry.
RE: Life in Japan and bubbles - Bokusenou - 2016-01-08
That's really interesting! It's fascinating to me because I live in the US, and had to work hard to find a Japanese bubble, even if I'm always either the only non-Japanese person there, or the most advanced one, and I get flustered while speaking all the time because of the pressure. I can't really comment on bubbles in Japan, since I was an upper-beginner when I went there, and probably won't be able to afford a trip there again, since I graduated and can't apply for scholarships. It was really interesting reading this though!
RE: Life in Japan and bubbles - Zgarbas - 2016-01-08
That's interesting. Did you seek out a Japanese bubble solely to practice your Japanese?
(I should note that i was reeeaaaally shy about talking in Japanese at first; the ease only showed up after a few months, when I felt more comfortable using the language, and when I managed to get over the 'oh my god I am talking in Japanese' block)
RE: Life in Japan and bubbles - Ash_S - 2016-01-08
(2016-01-08, 1:42 am)Zgarbas Wrote: *I have no idea why, but it seems like there are some really arbitrary conditions for people talking to you in Japanese. I went to a restaurant last week with a friend with whom I am virtually identical with, traits wise: same skin tone, same build, same height, same eye colour, similar clothes, similar haircut. The waitress comes up to me and asks me for my reservation in Japanese, but asks them about theirs in English. Blew. my. mind.
Really interesting post, there's all sorts I wanna say but let me focus on this bit. I'm going to hypothesize that this depends on something we'll call the Gaijin Aura™, lol. When I was in Japan on holiday recently, I went to a cafe with my friend and her parents and half way through the meal my friend says ○○（オレ）って外人オーラないよね and the parents are all like ないない、雰囲気が日本人。So I was like what's a gaijin aura, and my friend pointed out a another white guy across the room. His clothes and haircut weren't Japanese, but more importantly he was leaned back with a foot resting on the table and his whole way of carrying himself was... よく言えばproud、悪く言えばarrogant（笑）.
Ah. Instant understanding. 外人オーラ出てるね。うんうん。納得。
In other words, if someone came into the cafe and scanned their eyes across the room they would instantly pick him out as a foreigner, but I suspect their eyes would just pass over me.
Something similar for you, maybe? If not your appearance, then just mannerisms and the way you hold your body :/
Changing the topic a bit, when I was in Japan on uni exchange, I just hung out with Japanese friends and spoke Japanese 99% of the time. Nothing much interesting to say regarding my own 'bubble'. The interesting people are the foreigners I saw in my dorm who made no effort to learn the language or fit in with Japanese people. Trying to get inside their head (and from limited conversation with them, and acting as their interpreter as they get scolded by the dorm manager for the nth time...):
It's a foreign land. They came here on a whim ("Hey, Japan's a cool country, right?"). They have no connection to the place. They can't communicate with anyone, and nobody communicates with them. The people have different lifestyles and behavior, and the rules make no sense ("You mean I can't even talk to my friend on the train!?"). They get told off constantly for doing things which would be fine in their home countries ("I was only 5 mins late and my prof got so mad, wtf man").
I think it's all a bit surreal to them, like it's not a real place: Japan is a game world and the Japanese people are NPCs. They and their little gaijin crew are the player characters, obviously. This is how you get them talking loudly and munching crisps on the train months after coming to Japan. This is how you get them openly laughing at some salaryman's face on the train and taking blatant pictures of him as he looks uncomfortable. It's a strange world populated by incomprehensible robots, and there's no consequences for the player characters' actions.
RE: Life in Japan and bubbles - tokyostyle - 2016-01-08
(2016-01-08, 1:42 am)Zgarbas Wrote:I think that people inevitably end up in bubbles.
This made me think a bit about my own bubble and made me sort of realize how much I value bilingual friends. Of course I do have monolinguals on the fringes of my social circle, but my core friends all have decent skills in their second language which makes them much more versatile in integrating with my life. I had never really thought about it that way before, but anyone who doesn't speak English well or doesn't speak Japanese well tends to get compartmentalized a bit because they can't freely mix with all of my other friends.
Thanks a lot for sharing this, it's one of the more thought provoking things I've read in a while.
(2016-01-08, 1:42 am)Zgarbas Wrote:*I have no idea why, but it seems like there are some really arbitrary conditions for people talking to you in Japanese.
I have spent a lot of time thinking about this and there are quite a few factors to it. The more you give off subtle queues that you understand things that are going on around you the more likely you are to get Japanese thrown at you. You appearance also counts for a lot since your clothes, slenderness and general health can be clues as to how long you have bene here. If you want to guarantee an English response be overweight with poor fashion, move awkwardly and abruptly while looking at everything around you, and furrow your brow often while reading menus and signs. All of these things will send off massive clues that you are new to your environment and generally evoke an English response.
It's hard to say what happened in the example you gave, but I would guess a large part of it was body language and the way you approached the situation in general.
RE: Life in Japan and bubbles - Zgarbas - 2016-01-08
Idk, I kind of thought the same before this one incident. We're both overweight and moved to Japan on the same day. The only notable difference between us is that I have blue hair and theirs is black, so looks wise you'd expect me to stand out more negatively... We were just waiting in line, so I don't know how much body language could make a difference in that case. Who knows. People have debates on how Japanese my kokoro is, but one thing that I'm sure everyone agrees on is that I do not, under any light, look the least bit not-foreign... and given how people can recognise me randomly after only having talked to me for 2 minutes 6 months before, I think that I might stand out >_<
I get the 'you're so Japanese' speech from colleagues/friends/teachers sometimes, but Imho the whole 'your atmosphere is Japanese' thing, when said to your face, is kind of weird: it's usually for reasons like 'you're so polite', 'you apologise a lot' or 'you know more than me about *insert typical Japanese thing here*'... it's kind of weird that they racialise basic manners. On the other side of the coin you have Japanese people who get genuinely depressed and yell out that they're not really Japanese because they like Western media or are extroverts.
RE: Life in Japan and bubbles - Bokusenou - 2016-01-10
(2016-01-08, 6:21 am)Zgarbas Wrote: That's interesting. Did you seek out a Japanese bubble solely to practice your Japanese?At first, yeah, but then I made friends with them and started enjoying myself.
(I should note that i was reeeaaaally shy about talking in Japanese at first; the ease only showed up after a few months, when I felt more comfortable using the language, and when I managed to get over the 'oh my god I am talking in Japanese' block)
I still need a lot of practice if my speaking is ever going to catch up to my reading, but I think I'll get there someday. Also, thanks! That makes me feel better about my speaking.
RE: Life in Japan and bubbles - gaiaslastlaugh - 2016-01-10
(2016-01-10, 5:11 pm)Bokusenou Wrote: At first, yeah, but then I made friends with them and started enjoying myself.
One of the nice things about having long-term Japanese friends (well, there are many nice things, but I'm speaking from a language learning perspective) is that you start to notice that your speaking is progressing, because *they* start to notice it. Yes, everyone starts off telling you, "OMG you're so 上手" if you can barely eke out a こんにちは. But after someone has known you for a while, they'll notice as your speaking speed and choice of vocab are progressing, and will compliment you for it.
It's hard for me to notice my own progress, because I live with myself and I study every day, and any improvement happens in such tiny increments that I often overlook it. So it's nice when a friend from Tokyo I haven't seen in six months can call out how much my speaking has evolved since she's last seen me.
RE: Life in Japan and bubbles - afterglowefx - 2016-01-13
What I'm about to get into may be unpopular.
This is me. Except it's 10am and I have a can of beer in my hand. Probably my third. Also, instead of "months after coming to Japan" go ahead and put in "years".
(2016-01-08, 7:14 am)Ash_S Wrote: This is how you get them talking loudly and munching crisps on the train months after coming to Japan. This is how you get them openly laughing at some salaryman's face on the train and taking blatant pictures of him as he looks uncomfortable. It's a strange world populated by incomprehensible robots, and there's no consequences for the player characters' actions.
I wasn't always the ヤンキー that I am today. I used to care about the rules and do my best to fit in. But there comes a time in every foreigner living in Japan's life where everyone comes to the same realization: a foreigner can never be Japanese. Ever. It doesn't matter if you have a Japanese job, a Japanese car, a Japanese wife, and a Japanese house. It doesn't matter how good your Japanese is, hell it doesn't even matter if you were born in Japan. Only Japanese can be Japanese, and that is that.
And because Japanese are convinced that only Japanese people can ever truly understand Japanese culture, you will always be held to a different standard. You don't like meat because you like meat, you like meat because foreigners like meat. It's not because you were hung over and half asleep that you queued for the wrong train, it's because foreigners don't understand the ingeniousness of Japanese public transportation. Every preference you have, every mistake you make, what you look like, what you do, where you go -- everything will be attributed not to you as a unique person, but rather to where you are from (or more accurately, not from). You have no place in Japanese society outside "clown of an English teacher" or "leaving-in-6 months-foreign-exchange student".
What this means is up to you. You can get angry, and you'll have tons of company -- walk into the nearest foreigner bar and you'll find plenty of dudes in their 30's and 40's with endless lists of all the shit that sucks in Japan. And they're right, in a lot of ways, and their complaints are valid. You can give up, go home, and actually be part of a society. This is what most people do, and the crappy part about foreign friends is they all eventually go home.
Or you can rip open that bag of chips on the train, crack open your second beer, and start into a long conversation in filthy Japanese about the latest girl you had back at your place. Because you know what? It doesn't matter. Even if you get everything right, observe every rule and social norm and carry about your business in perfect Japanese, you'll still just be the filthy foreigner doing whatever it is that filthy foreigners do. So why bother? Not being a part of society can be alienating, but it is also incredibly liberating. Japanese rules are for Japanese people, you get to make your own. Japan is a playground and you know what? Yeah, I am the main character.
My life here is insane. My hobbies are alcoholism, wrecking BMWs, women, and accosting people on the street. Last year I was seeing four women at the same time (one of which was a pot dealer), this year I'm married with a kid. I just spent the weekend with a buddy filming an entry for his blog asking Japanese people on the street to smell my farts to see if they stank -- 80% of Japanese surveyed actually chose to smell my ass. I have stories here that I don't even believe, let alone anyone else.
I don't so much have a bubble as a circle, and it is one I have carefully put together for myself. Because most Japanese people are boring, and most foreigners are awful.
As far as the Japanese language goes, it's the language I use 99% of the time. My wife doesn't speak a word of English, nobody speaks English at work, and most of my foreign friends are fluent in Japanese or close to it. I came here randomly a few years ago because it seemed cool. I found I could do nothing with English after my first frustrating year (during which I heavily relied on an English speaking girlfriend) before beginning to start studying the language. Three years later I'm fairly fluent (although I still have quite a way to go). The biggest motivating factor for me was being able to do things by myself without outside help, and that continues to be a large part of why I study today. I also just like talking to people, even if it is only to ask them to smell my ass.
RE: Life in Japan and bubbles - vix86 - 2016-01-13
(2016-01-13, 9:22 pm)afterglowefx Wrote: What this means is up to you. You can get angry, and you'll have tons of company -- walk into the nearest foreigner bar and you'll find plenty of dudes in their 30's and 40's with endless lists of all the shit that sucks in Japan. And they're right, in a lot of ways, and their complaints are valid. You can give up, go home, and actually be part of a society. This is what most people do, and the crappy part about foreign friends is they all eventually go home.Only really replying to add a 'me too' on this. People looking to go to Japan need this repeated at them over and over, and at the end of the day they'll still go. Just don't turn into one of those 40 year old guys bitter at life and Japan. But what was said here happens so much. I say the average 'lifespan' of a foreigner in Japan is about 5-7 years.
Quote:Because most Japanese people are boring, and most foreigners are awful.This has always been my feeling about a lot of Japanese at large too, but I have only superficial evidence to base it on so I wondered if I'm just not digging deep enough. And, it amazes me the kind of degenerates that Japan attracts.
Quote:I found I could do nothing with English after my first frustrating year (during which I heavily relied on an English speaking girlfriend) before beginning to start studying the language. Three years later I'm fairly fluent (although I still have quite a way to go). The biggest motivating factor for me was being able to do things by myself without outside help, and that continues to be a large part of why I study today. I also just like talking to people, even if it is only to ask them to smell my ass.What do most bitter English teachers in Japan have in common?
If you said, "they can barely speak a word of Japanese even after being here for nearly 2 decades;" you won!
Most people that speak the language, I find, tend to not hate their life and the country nearly as much. At worst, most are strongly apathetic about everything which it kind of sounds like you are afterglowefx. But I think most people are pretty apathetic about their home country too, so its normal.
RE: Life in Japan and bubbles - Dudeist - 2016-01-14
(2016-01-13, 11:13 pm)vix86 Wrote: People looking to go to Japan need this repeated at them over and over, and at the end of the day they'll still go. Just don't turn into one of those 40 year old guys bitter at life and Japan. But what was said here happens so much. I say the average 'lifespan' of a foreigner in Japan is about 5-7 years.
I'm 46 and bitter at life and Canada. I figure things can't be any worse than Japan.
Sometimes I do wonder though. Both because of what I read and watch online but also because of the way things are for me here including one very recent example of life fail which makes me wonder why I even bother to try.
No way would I go over without some serious ability in the language but it seems like a lot of effort and a lot of life uprooting buggery for a good chance that it will be more of the same or worse.
That being said, I don't see how anyone could string 4 girls along at the same time to refer to the previous post above the quoted post can hate a country that much, unless I suppose that is the norm for him at home and abroad. If so life can't be all that bad. However this is coming from a person for whom dating requires serious payment and talking to any woman who isn't required by her job to be nice to me is greeted with a massive wall of indifference so, never mind the dudes, the death of face to face RPGs pretty much killed that for me. [no homo]. So I guess others would have a different view and greater expectations from life.
RE: Life in Japan and bubbles - sokino - 2016-01-14
Luckily (unluckily?) for me, I've been a racial minority in the US in my entire life, so experiencing the things afterglowefx are talking about is an old hat to me. I feel that in my home country. I imagine that's why it's not as hard for me to adjust of never being "Japanese" enough no matter what you do. And I've had friends who (also racial minorities from western countries) who feel the same, and they seem to be pretty well adjusted (relatively speaking) to life in Japan.
RE: Life in Japan and bubbles - afterglowefx - 2016-01-14
(2016-01-13, 11:13 pm)vix86 Wrote: Most people that speak the language, I find, tend to not hate their life and the country nearly as much. At worst, most are strongly apathetic about everything which it kind of sounds like you are afterglowefx. But I think most people are pretty apathetic about their home country too, so its normal.
(2016-01-14, 4:35 am)Dudeist Wrote: That being said, I don't see how anyone could string 4 girls along at the same time to refer to the previous post above the quoted post can hate a country that much, unless I suppose that is the norm for him at home and abroad.
Don't get me wrong, I love Japan. This place rocks. I really want to emphasis where I said that this place is a playground, because it really can be if you have the right mindset.
I've been lucky enough to travel quite a bit, having been to something like 40-50 countries and collectively living about 2 years abroad before coming to Japan. One of the many things I learned after leaving home was that every country, no matter where you go, has its strong points and not-so-great points. Some of those are objective (safety, economy, general convenience of living) and some depend entirely on preference (food, culture, climate). The key is finding a country which both fits you as a person (i.e., matches your preferences) and provides a livable environment (i.e., is safe, has employment opportunities, etc).
Japan strikes a good balance for me. Yeah, there are a ton of shitty things about Japan, but there's plenty of good too. The reason I often focus more on the bad than the good is that too many people come here expecting paradise (and/or the backdrop of their favorite anime). Unfortunately it is not--but that doesn't make it hell, either.
(2016-01-14, 11:03 am)sokino Wrote: Luckily (unluckily?) for me, I've been a racial minority in the US in my entire life, so experiencing the things afterglowefx are talking about is an old hat to me. I feel that in my home country. I imagine that's why it's not as hard for me to adjust of never being "Japanese" enough no matter what you do. And I've had friends who (also racial minorities from western countries) who feel the same, and they seem to be pretty well adjusted (relatively speaking) to life in Japan.
Being a minority at home probably helps prepare you for a lot of what Japan will throw at you. But if that "home" is the U.S. or a lot of other Western countries, the culture is a lot more forgiving of immigrants. If you speak the national language fluently, live in the country, have a family there, have a job and house, and are a functioning member of society, there are very few who would deny that you are, in fact, a national of that country. If you live in the U.S., meet all those requirements, and self-identify as "American", nobody would consider it strange. It's a personal choice. But if you try that in Japan, people will just laugh at you. Literally. In your face. You don't get to choose to be Japanese.
There are tens of thousands of third generation Koreans--not only were they born in Japan, but so were their parents--who are not considered to be Japanese. They have never been to Korea, they don't speak Korean, they know nothing of the world except Japan. But ask a Japanese person if they're Japanese? Haha, nope, zero percent. Of course it depends on who you talk to and some may give you an in-between response like, "Well, they are Korean, but they have a Japanese heart" or something, but at the end of the day being Japanese is never a choice, and there is no room in Japanese society for non-Japanese. This is the exact opposite of most Western countries, which were either founded on immigration (the United States, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, etc), or who now heavily rely on immigration to sustain their economy and demographics (most of Europe would have negative birth rates without immigration).
RE: Life in Japan and bubbles - Zgarbas - 2016-01-14
(2016-01-14, 4:35 am)Dudeist Wrote: I'm 46 and bitter at life and Canada. I figure things can't be any worse than Japan.
Sorry mate, but when it comes to generalised assumptions about being in a country (sans personal experience), If you're this bitter in a place that is universally seen as one of the friendliest, happiest and one of the best places to live on Earth, then I don't think any information that you will find on the Internet would be able to assure you that it would be better somewhere else.
RE: Life in Japan and bubbles - cophnia61 - 2016-01-14
What about japanese people who live in the USA? Are they more "open-minded"? Is it easier to make japanese friends among those who live outside of Japan (see Yamaha workers in the USA)?
RE: Life in Japan and bubbles - afterglowefx - 2016-01-15
(2016-01-14, 8:29 pm)cophnia61 Wrote: What about japanese people who live in the USA? Are they more "open-minded"? Is it easier to make japanese friends among those who live outside of Japan (see Yamaha workers in the USA)?
The funny thing about that is Japanese who live a year abroad have a really hard time adjusting back to life in Japan. Many employers actually discriminate against people who have lived or studied abroad because they come back just a bit different from your average 田中さん who shows up every day half an hour early, works 15 hours for his 8 hour contract, and then goes home to drink a cheap beer before passing out ... day in and day out, for forty years, without complaint.
Japanese people are awesome once you take them outside of Japan. It's just the whole Japanese-in-Japan thing that many people have a lot of trouble with.
RE: Life in Japan and bubbles - Robik - 2016-01-15
(2016-01-14, 6:51 pm)afterglowefx Wrote: There are tens of thousands of third generation Koreans--not only were they born in Japan, but so were their parents--who are not considered to be Japanese. They have never been to Korea, they don't speak Korean, they know nothing of the world except Japan. But ask a Japanese person if they're Japanese? Haha, nope, zero percent. Of course it depends on who you talk to and some may give you an in-between response like, "Well, they are Korean, but they have a Japanese heart" or something, but at the end of the day being Japanese is never a choice, and there is no room in Japanese society for non-Japanese.
What about children from mixed marriages, are they considered Japanese?
RE: Life in Japan and bubbles - tetsueda - 2016-01-15
(2016-01-14, 6:51 pm)afterglowefx Wrote: There are tens of thousands of third generation Koreans--not only were they born in Japan, but so were their parents--who are not considered to be Japanese. They have never been to Korea, they don't speak Korean, they know nothing of the world except Japan.
Though I agree that and don't like how Zainichis are treated, but this strikes me as very similar to how Americans call themselves "German" or "Italian", or whatever. Of course it's self-imposed and all, but I still find it quite ironic.
RE: Life in Japan and bubbles - RandomQuotes - 2016-01-15
(2016-01-15, 8:27 am)Robik Wrote:(2016-01-14, 6:51 pm)afterglowefx Wrote: There are tens of thousands of third generation Koreans--not only were they born in Japan, but so were their parents--who are not considered to be Japanese. They have never been to Korea, they don't speak Korean, they know nothing of the world except Japan. But ask a Japanese person if they're Japanese? Haha, nope, zero percent. Of course it depends on who you talk to and some may give you an in-between response like, "Well, they are Korean, but they have a Japanese heart" or something, but at the end of the day being Japanese is never a choice, and there is no room in Japanese society for non-Japanese.
What about children from mixed marriages, are they considered Japanese?
Not generally, no.
RE: Life in Japan and bubbles - ariariari - 2016-01-15
(2016-01-15, 8:27 am)Robik Wrote:(2016-01-14, 6:51 pm)afterglowefx Wrote: There are tens of thousands of third generation Koreans--not only were they born in Japan, but so were their parents--who are not considered to be Japanese. They have never been to Korea, they don't speak Korean, they know nothing of the world except Japan. But ask a Japanese person if they're Japanese? Haha, nope, zero percent. Of course it depends on who you talk to and some may give you an in-between response like, "Well, they are Korean, but they have a Japanese heart" or something, but at the end of the day being Japanese is never a choice, and there is no room in Japanese society for non-Japanese.
What about children from mixed marriages, are they considered Japanese?
There is a movie called hafu that (presumably) goes into this in a lot of depth. I haven't watched it myself but I have heard of it.
Debito Arudou's blog goes into these issues in a lot of depth as well. I read it regularly. He also writes a monthly column for the Japan Times.
He also has a new book out called Embedded Racism: Japan's Visible Minorities and Racial Discrimination that you might want to read. Though it appears to be very expensive, so you might want to ask your library to get a copy that you can borrow. The books is the product of his Ph.D. research, and he describes it on his website as his "Magnum Opus".
RE: Life in Japan and bubbles - ariariari - 2016-01-15
(2016-01-14, 8:29 pm)cophnia61 Wrote: What about japanese people who live in the USA? Are they more "open-minded"? Is it easier to make japanese friends among those who live outside of Japan (see Yamaha workers in the USA)?
I did JET for two years and now live in my home country.
Questions like this are pretty subjective and really hard to answer. I can relate to a lot of what's being said in this thread, as well as danchan's excellent comments in another thread recently.
When I lived in Japan, I found the biggest obstacle to making friends occured in my second year, when I got more comfortable with speaking Japanese. I thought that my improved language ability would make it easier to make friends and would deepen the relationships I had already formed. In fact, it had the exact opposite impact, which surprised me. It turned out that many people were just interested in speaking with me to gain experience speaking English with a native speaker.
The biggest obstacle I have with making Japanese friends here are the number and demographics of Japanese who come here, and the duration of their stay. I'm an engineer in my 30s. Most Japanese I meet are students or au pairs. The professionals I've met tend to only stay for a short time, so it's hard to form anything other than a superficial friendship with them.
I should add: one of my goals with the language now is to progress to a point where I can read, in Japanese, what Japanese people have to say about foreigners.
RE: Life in Japan and bubbles - loonytik - 2016-01-15
(2016-01-08, 1:42 am)Zgarbas Wrote:(2016-01-07, 8:07 pm)afterglowefx Wrote:(2016-01-05, 2:29 am)Zgarbas Wrote: I don't really hang out outside campus, but every now and then I find myself interacting with expat bubbles and it's always interesting for me to see their idea of Japan and Japanese.
I'd be interested in hearing your take on the same, given you live in what is essentially just another type of bubble. No offense taken or meant, honestly curious. Although definitely a subject for another thread.
*I have no idea why, but it seems like there are some really arbitrary conditions for people talking to you in Japanese. I went to a restaurant last week with a friend with whom I am virtually identical with, traits wise: same skin tone, same build, same height, same eye colour, similar clothes, similar haircut. The waitress comes up to me and asks me for my reservation in Japanese, but asks them about theirs in English. Blew. my. mind.
**When I can't, I get the reminder that I'm not really fluent. Frustrating when it happens, but somehow it doesn't really get to me. Keeps me humble, though.
I have the same thing! Don't know why. The "aura" explanation makes sense but I don't know how one get's such aura haha. While I have the looks of the steortype gaijin haha.
I also had another fun experience during my internship in Japan. I also had a Chinese colleague that was doing a internship at the same place I did. She looked pretty Japanese and was really good in written Japanese, however she was not used that much yet to spoken Japanese. So I had to explain some spoken Japanese stuff when we hanged out with each other :p A really fond memory for example we went to a yakitori stand and ordered some yakitori to go and the owner of the stand asked to her "shio or tare?" and she didn't understand what the owner meant so I explained it to her. Gave me a interesting look from the owner haha(wait a foreigner is explaining it to a "Japanese" how cute haha". had multiple situations like that that gave me the same weird looks haha.
RE: Life in Japan and bubbles - visualsense - 2016-01-15
What you guys are calling "gaijin aura", is probably what would just be called "tourist aura" or "tourist vibe" in other languages.
RE: Life in Japan and bubbles - afterglowefx - 2016-01-18
(2016-01-15, 8:27 am)Robik Wrote: What about children from mixed marriages, are they considered Japanese?
Yes and no. But depending on what half you are, your experience will vary quite a bit. To put it bluntly, to most Japanese people there are cool foreigners and scary foreigners. I guess the same thing could be said back home -- take a stereotypical Swedish dude and a stereotypical Indian dude and pop them both into a club in the US, and the Swedish dude is, in general, going to be way more popular. It's just the way it is.
Japan is like that. White foreigners are cool, unless they are Russian. Black and brown foreigners are typically not cool. But if you're a stylish black or brown foreigner with an R&B vibe, then you can be cool sometimes. Unless you are poor.
So if you grow up in Japan as a white-Japanese half you'll find that in general you'll be popular and exotic without being so different as to be totally outcast by those around you. You won't be totally Japanese, but then again you won't be pigeonholed into the "omg gaijin panic" category either. It's a little like having the best of both -- decent integration into society with the exoticism of being somewhat-foreign (despite being born and raised in Japan...). Of course there is still the petty everyday racism that all non-Japanese put up with, but that's really unavoidable.
Brown-Japanese halves have, by and large, a very different experience. I live in an area with a huge Brazilian presence and there are a ton of halves running around. These people are almost never considered to be cool, and they very much keep to themselves. The only time you see these kids hanging out with Japanese in mixed groups is usually when the Japanese have dyed orange hair and own wardrobes consisting of 15 pairs of sweatpants and 15 pairs of crocs.
RE: Life in Japan and bubbles - cophnia61 - 2016-01-18
Why the russian thing? ._.