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Just realized today is the 74th anniversary of you-know-what... - john555 - 2015-12-07
Do the Japanese do anything official on this date to express remorse?
RE: Just realized today is the 74th anniversary of you-know-what... - yogert909 - 2015-12-07
Probably about as remorseful as we are on August 6.
RE: Just realized today is the 74th anniversary of you-know-what... - Zgarbas - 2015-12-08
Does the US (and most of the Western world) have a daily anniversary to express remorse for every place they've bombed?
God I hate the 'Remember Pearl Harbour.'
RE: Just realized today is the 74th anniversary of you-know-what... - john555 - 2015-12-08
(2015-12-07, 7:09 pm)yogert909 Wrote: Probably about as remorseful as we are on August 6.
You're treating Dec. 7th and August 6th as being somehow equivalent but they are not. Dec. 7th was an unprovoked attack on the USA but August 6th was the day the US reluctantly took steps in order to end the war.
RE: Just realized today is the 74th anniversary of you-know-what... - TheVinster - 2015-12-08
(2015-12-08, 10:28 am)john555 Wrote:(2015-12-07, 7:09 pm)yogert909 Wrote: Probably about as remorseful as we are on August 6.
You're treating Dec. 7th and August 6th as being somehow equivalent but they are not. Dec. 7th was an unprovoked attack on the USA but August 6th was the day the US reluctantly took steps in order to end the war.
Where is Nanking in all of this?
RE: Just realized today is the 74th anniversary of you-know-what... - RandomQuotes - 2015-12-08
(2015-12-08, 10:28 am)john555 Wrote:OK, since we're going to be digging into more or less history.(2015-12-07, 7:09 pm)yogert909 Wrote: Probably about as remorseful as we are on August 6.
You're treating Dec. 7th and August 6th as being somehow equivalent but they are not. Dec. 7th was an unprovoked attack on the USA but August 6th was the day the US reluctantly took steps in order to end the war.
How remorseful are you about the revolutionary war?
How remorseful are you about the Cherokee Wars?
How remorseful are you about the war of 1812?
How remorseful are you about the Falklands Island Incident?
How remorseful are you about Commodore Perry forcing japan to open its ports?
How remorseful are you about the Banana Wars?
How remorseful are you about Wounded Knee?
How remorseful are you about about dropping Napalm on Vietnam?
How remorseful are you about the Bay of Pigs?
How remorseful are you about the No Gun Ri Massacre?
How remorseful are you about the internment camps of American Citizens during WW2?
The us has done lots of shady shit that a good many of it's citizens never think of. So, why bring up something that most of population of both countries weren't even alive yet for. In the US there is a population of about 319 million people, out of the population about there are only about 1 million living WW2 vets, dying at rate of 500 a day. In addition, anyone who is younger than 70 wasn't born yet. Which means you have to be at least 75-78 to remember anything. And at least 88 to have been an adult at the time. With a generous estimate there is something like 7.5% of the population being 5 and older by the time WW2 ended.
RE: Just realized today is the 74th anniversary of you-know-what... - Ash_S - 2015-12-08
(2015-12-08, 10:28 am)john555 Wrote:(2015-12-07, 7:09 pm)yogert909 Wrote: Probably about as remorseful as we are on August 6.
You're treating Dec. 7th and August 6th as being somehow equivalent but they are not. Dec. 7th was an unprovoked attack on the USA but August 6th was the day the US reluctantly took steps in order to end the war.
ちゃんと歴史の勉強もしないで軽率な意見を言うのはやめてもらえないかね？
米国が原爆投下に踏み切った理由としては、日本本土での直接戦を避けることの他に、戦後の冷戦を見据えてのソ連に対する軍事力の誇示や、新兵器の使用実験（人体実験）など、理由は様々だ。reluctantlyとは言いにくい。
また、日本が戦争に踏み切った経緯についてもよく調べるべきだ。
歴史は複雑。完全なる善人も悪人もいない。自分の偏見を述べる前にちっとは勉強しろ。
RE: Just realized today is the 74th anniversary of you-know-what... - yogert909 - 2015-12-08
(2015-12-08, 10:28 am)john555 Wrote:(2015-12-07, 7:09 pm)yogert909 Wrote: Probably about as remorseful as we are on August 6.
You're treating Dec. 7th and August 6th as being somehow equivalent but they are not. Dec. 7th was an unprovoked attack on the USA but August 6th was the day the US reluctantly took steps in order to end the war.
Those aren't the only differences, but I'm not interested in arguing about them. I'm much more interested in things like these Iwo Jima reunions. What's gotta be running through these guy's heads while shaking hands with people who very likely killed a few of their friends?
RE: Just realized today is the 74th anniversary of you-know-what... - Dudeist - 2015-12-08
(2015-12-08, 11:13 am)RandomQuotes Wrote: How remorseful are you about the Banana Wars?Not at all. Those minions got what they deserved.
RE: Just realized today is the 74th anniversary of you-know-what... - kapalama - 2015-12-08
It was Dec 8th in Japan.
RE: Just realized today is the 74th anniversary of you-know-what... - kapalama - 2015-12-08
(2015-12-08, 1:48 pm)yogert909 Wrote:(2015-12-08, 10:28 am)john555 Wrote:(2015-12-07, 7:09 pm)yogert909 Wrote: Probably about as remorseful as we are on August 6.
You're treating Dec. 7th and August 6th as being somehow equivalent but they are not. Dec. 7th was an unprovoked attack on the USA but August 6th was the day the US reluctantly took steps in order to end the war.
Those aren't the only differences, but I'm not interested in arguing about them. I'm much more interested in things like these Iwo Jima reunions. What's gotta be running through these guy's heads while shaking hands with people who very likely killed a few of their friends?
The veterans who meet on what used to be battlefields but have no become, in many places, Japanese tourist spots generally look pretty bleak. No shared language, but there were a lot of tears and hugging.
The fiftieth anniversaries of Palau, Tinian, Saipan, Okinawa battles were the last chance for most of those who fought.
RE: Just realized today is the 74th anniversary of you-know-what... - dtcamero - 2015-12-08
(2015-12-08, 11:56 am)Ash_S Wrote:(2015-12-08, 10:28 am)john555 Wrote:(2015-12-07, 7:09 pm)yogert909 Wrote: Probably about as remorseful as we are on August 6.
You're treating Dec. 7th and August 6th as being somehow equivalent but they are not. Dec. 7th was an unprovoked attack on the USA but August 6th was the day the US reluctantly took steps in order to end the war.
ちゃんと歴史の勉強もしないで軽率な意見を言うのはやめてもらえないかね？
米国が原爆投下に踏み切った理由としては、日本本土での直接戦を避けることの他に、戦後の冷戦を見据えてのソ連に対する軍事力の誇示や、新兵器の使用実験（人体実験）など、理由は様々だ。reluctantlyとは言いにくい。
また、日本が戦争に踏み切った経緯についてもよく調べるべきだ。
歴史は複雑。完全なる善人も悪人もいない。自分の偏見を述べる前にちっとは勉強しろ。
賛成。真珠湾は植民地のハワイの軍事基地だ…
明らかにアメリカ軍は偉い目的であそこにいた訳じゃない。
it amazes me how many americans still believe the ww2 fairy tale of heroes and villains that we were taught as children.
the very same countries that supposedly fought a righteous war against expansionist fascists were themselves expanding their own colonial jackboot across asia and africa for hundreds of years.
if you think about it in that light the way ww2 is taught is pretty fundamentally racist... "invading those countries is ok because those people are brown. they are places to draw resources. but invading europe or an european/american colony, that's different!"
ww2 was a contest of great powers seeking to futher consolidate their power.
there are no heroes and vilians, only varying degrees of villainry.
everything else is a historicization which will justify the millions that died so a few rich old men can become richer.
RE: Just realized today is the 74th anniversary of you-know-what... - Splatted - 2015-12-08
It still shocks me how revisionist my schools' history lessons were. They completely glossed over how the allies drove Germany to near destitution treating them like a cash cow after ww1. The one that really opened my eyes to it was how Oliver Cromwell was sold as a hero that won democracy for the common folks. Never even mentioned what happened in Ireland.
I'm guessing it's taught a little differently in Dublin...
RE: Just realized today is the 74th anniversary of you-know-what... - yogert909 - 2015-12-08
(2015-12-08, 3:39 pm)dtcamero Wrote: it amazes me how many americans still believe the ww2 fairy tale of heroes and villains that we were taught as children.
the very same countries that supposedly fought a righteous war against expansionist fascists were themselves expanding their own colonial jackboot across asia and africa for hundreds of years.
if you think about it in that light the way ww2 is taught is pretty fundamentally racist... "invading those countries is ok because those people are brown. they are places to draw resources. but invading europe or an european/american colony, that's different!"
ww2 was a contest of great powers seeking to futher consolidate their power.
there are no heroes and vilians, only varying degrees of villainry.
everything else is a historicization which will justify the millions that died so a few rich old men can become richer.
Not to mention Hawaii's forceful annexation by the US 44 years earlier.
RE: Just realized today is the 74th anniversary of you-know-what... - ariariari - 2015-12-08
(2015-12-07, 7:04 pm)john555 Wrote: Do the Japanese do anything official on this date to express remorse?
This topic has strayed really far off from your original question. I think that it's a question and topic worth treating with respect, though, so I'll do my best.
When I did JET the anniversary of Hiroshima was remembered. I don't remember anyone saying anything to me about Pearl Harbor.
I wish my Japanese was good enough to really dig into this online. All I can do at this point is throw some simple Japanese keywords into google and muddle thru the results:
パール・ハーバー
That mostly returns movie references. But it looks like article 2 is what you want 真珠湾攻撃. Apparently they use kanji for "Pearl Harbor". It always throws me off when things that I expect to be in katakana are in kanji, and vice versa.
I'm not able to read the article. But knowing the word for pearl harbo plus the word for "day off" or "holiday" should be enough to get you some results (i.e. "is it a holiday?"). Also, since you know the date, you could also just look at the front page of the various newspapers to see if they even mentioned it at all.
RE: Just realized today is the 74th anniversary of you-know-what... - ryuudou - 2015-12-09
(2015-12-08, 3:39 pm).dtcamero Wrote:Sure. You can argue that every country has done bad things.(2015-12-08, 11:56 am)Ash_S Wrote:(2015-12-08, 10:28 am)john555 Wrote:(2015-12-07, 7:09 pm)yogert909 Wrote: Probably about as remorseful as we are on August 6.
You're treating Dec. 7th and August 6th as being somehow equivalent but they are not. Dec. 7th was an unprovoked attack on the USA but August 6th was the day the US reluctantly took steps in order to end the war.
ちゃんと歴史の勉強もしないで軽率な意見を言うのはやめてもらえないかね？
米国が原爆投下に踏み切った理由としては、日本本土での直接戦を避けることの他に、戦後の冷戦を見据えてのソ連に対する軍事力の誇示や、新兵器の使用実験（人体実験）など、理由は様々だ。reluctantlyとは言いにくい。
また、日本が戦争に踏み切った経緯についてもよく調べるべきだ。
歴史は複雑。完全なる善人も悪人もいない。自分の偏見を述べる前にちっとは勉強しろ。
賛成。真珠湾は植民地のハワイの軍事記事だ…
明らかにアメリカ軍は偉い目的であそこにいた訳じゃない。
it amazes me how many americans still believe the ww2 fairy tale of heroes and villains that we were taught as children.
the very same countries that supposedly fought a righteous war against expansionist fascists were themselves expanding their own colonial jackboot across asia and africa for hundreds of years.
The difference is Germany and Japan were doing these kind of things in a time well past their expiration date, and to a much greater extent.
An equivalent would be that if sometime during the 30s, in the US, the concept of an elected president was removed after the murder of all liberals with power and all conservatives who are weak on militarism, democracy was phased out, and all of the courts invalidated. The same courts that would eventually strike down US hypocrisy like Jim Crow laws would instead be removed, and replaced with fascism. And if then in the 1940s the US conquered Canada without warning and completely took control. And then invaded Cuba and Mexico. And then occupied Brazil. And during this, back home, all descendants of slaves are being executed. Anyone who hides a descendant of a slave is sentenced to death, and anyone close to anyone hiding a descendant of a slave is detained and interrogated.
In this scenario it would be just and expected for the other countries to go to war with the US to stop this (or out of necessity to defend themselves), and the countries fighting against the US in this scenario would be on the better side.
The US, for all it's ills, was never interested in conquering the world and left colonialism behind in the 1800s for the most part. Nazi Germany, for all intents and purposes, was. And there was no one to stop them because even German citizens were being executed for speaking out against the war effort.
Nazi Germany, in something like 6 years, invaded over 25 countries. And they had plans for all of them beyond just expanding Germany.
![[Image: zjHZDn3.png]](http://i.imgur.com/zjHZDn3.png)
The larger plan was the Nazi ideal for all of Europe. No one was "pure" but them. The Nazis felt compelled to invade Russia despite it being a questionable decision because achieving the "new order" that Hitler was resolute about (and of course no one could rebuke Hitler or men in the top nazi circle) meant Russians had to be cleaned as well as they are not Nordic.
If the US is a recovering alcohol who used to beat women Nazi Germany was the serial killer who dissected them in his basement and then hide them in cement. The US, for all of it's horrible ills and hypocrisy, was never that bad. If the US had never abolished slavery and instead went even deeper down that path then they would had started reaching territory that is compatible to what Nazi Germany was.
(2015-12-08, 3:39 pm)dtcamero Wrote: there are no heroes and vilians, only varying degrees of villainry.That's true. Very true. "Hero" and "villain" function on a scale. However in this case it is clear who was much further into villain territory. Imperial Japan was just like Nazi Germany, and that's the reason they allied together despite being nowhere each other. Japan murdered more innocent people in the Nanking massacre that every Indian who was done wrong by colonists, and they did it 250-300 years later in a much more civilized world. THIS was Imperial Japan:
![[Image: b9eXtvY.png]](http://i.imgur.com/b9eXtvY.png)
And they had no intentions of stopping. The Axis powers had to be stopped and were objectively worse than the Allies then.
RE: Just realized today is the 74th anniversary of you-know-what... - Omoishinji - 2015-12-09
(2015-12-07, 7:04 pm)john555 Wrote: Do the Japanese do anything official on this date to express remorse?
They do the exact same thing that other people do when their ancestors have done something wrong. Move on with their lives.
RE: Just realized today is the 74th anniversary of you-know-what... - s0apgun - 2015-12-09
(2015-12-08, 11:56 am)Ash_S Wrote:(2015-12-08, 10:28 am)john555 Wrote:(2015-12-07, 7:09 pm)yogert909 Wrote: Probably about as remorseful as we are on August 6.
You're treating Dec. 7th and August 6th as being somehow equivalent but they are not. Dec. 7th was an unprovoked attack on the USA but August 6th was the day the US reluctantly took steps in order to end the war.
ちゃんと歴史の勉強もしないで軽率な意見を言うのはやめてもらえないかね？
米国が原爆投下に踏み切った理由としては、日本本土での直接戦を避けることの他に、戦後の冷戦を見据えてのソ連に対する軍事力の誇示や、新兵器の使用実験（人体実験）など、理由は様々だ。reluctantlyとは言いにくい。
また、日本が戦争に踏み切った経緯についてもよく調べるべきだ。
歴史は複雑。完全なる善人も悪人もいない。自分の偏見を述べる前にちっとは勉強しろ。
Why did you feel the need to type this in Japanese?
RE: Just realized today is the 74th anniversary of you-know-what... - Ash_S - 2015-12-09
(2015-12-09, 6:28 am)s0apgun Wrote: Why did you feel the need to type this in Japanese?
Some of what I wanted to say popped into my head in Japanese so i just wrote it in japanese.
Most ppl here speak japanese and more ppl are posting in japanese lately. I think it's a good trend.
RE: Just realized today is the 74th anniversary of you-know-what... - Tzadeck - 2015-12-09
(2015-12-08, 10:28 am)john555 Wrote:I think the attacks on Hiroshima and Nagasaki were far greater offenses than Pearl Harbor. Sure, it's a violation of war etiquette to attack without declaring war, but few non-military personnel died and the number of military personnel who died was fairly low (about 2,400) considering how much bloodshed happened during that war.(2015-12-07, 7:09 pm)yogert909 Wrote: Probably about as remorseful as we are on August 6.
You're treating Dec. 7th and August 6th as being somehow equivalent but they are not. Dec. 7th was an unprovoked attack on the USA but August 6th was the day the US reluctantly took steps in order to end the war.
Meanwhile, nobody really knows for sure why we bombed Hiroshima and Nagasaki, but I suspect it has something to do with wanting to keep Russia from having a lot of control over post-war Japan, and also to prove to the world that we had an incredible weapon. And in the name of that we killed 200,000 or so civilians.
RE: Just realized today is the 74th anniversary of you-know-what... - dtcamero - 2015-12-10
@ryuudou
I actually agree with most of what you said, and thank you for providing a compelling counter-argument. however I think you underestimate the role of european and american villianry in the world leading up to ww2. Nanjing was horrible but easily comparable with the British lifestyle of slavery murder and massacres around the world for hundreds of years leading up to the war.
also you seem to mention a pause before ww2 in which everyone became more civilized, and then were shocked by the german and japanese aggression... but I don't recall any such period. after all when the japanese attacked their asian neighbors, they were mostly attacking western armies.
for a very detailed look at exactly how American aggression continued seamlessly up to, during and after ww2, I would recommend reading howard zinn's "a people's history of the united states". it's a very good compliment to the prevailing narrative.
RE: Just realized today is the 74th anniversary of you-know-what... - john555 - 2015-12-10
For American history, I would recommend reading "A Patriot's History of the United States: From Columbus's Great Discovery to America's Age of Entitlement" by Larry Schweikart. For younger readers, the Rush Revere history series is recommended.
RE: Just realized today is the 74th anniversary of you-know-what... - RandomQuotes - 2015-12-10
(2015-12-10, 11:49 am)john555 Wrote: For American history, I would recommend reading "A Patriot's History of the United States: From Columbus's Great Discovery to America's Age of Entitlement" by Larry Schweikart. For younger readers, the Rush Revere history series is recommended.
Can you go 2 minutes without referencing your neo-conservative politics? Honestly, this is not the place for it.
RE: Just realized today is the 74th anniversary of you-know-what... - john555 - 2015-12-10
Look, you can call my politics whatever you want but Howard Zinn's view are NOT the mainstream. I don't think that most Americans hate their own country.
RE: Just realized today is the 74th anniversary of you-know-what... - dtcamero - 2015-12-10
most americans are not offered an honest examination of all aspects of their county's history.
it is in the prevailing powers' interests that the details of american colonies in the phillipines and cuba, contras cutting off women's breasts in nicaragua, and missing wmd's in iraq all get forgotten... so that the next war may go forward and arms makers can continue with business as usual.
I simply think that both sides of the narrative should be offered, not one. history is always created by man so we must in good faith make do as best we can with the best information possible...
that's not to say that americans would hate their own country if they had a better accounting of history. but I do think they would be disgusted with the way their country has behaved in the past... at the expense of so many for the benefit of so few.