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+--- Thread: Views on learning on-yomi readings, perfect groups/ signal primitives. (/thread-13421.html)
Views on learning on-yomi readings, perfect groups/ signal primitives. - Sztermel - 2015-12-05
Hey guys.
I've recently finished Core 2k and thought about learning so called perfect groups kanji readings.
Through my way with core I must say I've seen some patterns that certain characters have but would like to have easier way reading the ones I don't know yet and systematize my knowledge of their readings to make them come to the mind easier.
While I've been learning vocab and doing recognition way, as I don't have any need of producting the language yet, I've seen that I'm sometimes treating the compounds as one word - that Is I don't recall the readings of a character but immediately recall the word they represent without caring too much about a reading of each of the characters.
One word that comes to my mind is 大統領, whose characters didn't come up too much in other words of Core2k, except of 大。 That is If someone asked me what's the onyomi of 領 character I'd probably not know it.
I've also had some difficulties with recalling the writing of certain words but that's probably because I don't care about production that much and their characters aren't that common.
Coming back to my question, do you think that learning these groups would be beneficial and fix some issues I may have in the future?
Is there any anki deck that I could use for that without having to create mine?
Thanks in advance.
RE: Views on learning on-yomi readings, perfect groups/ signal primitives. - pm215 - 2015-12-05
The good news is that "tell me the on-yomi for character X" is not a skill you'll actually need to read, write, speak or understand the language. I think just learning at the word level is fine; I've never tried to study or learn on-yomi patterns.
RE: Views on learning on-yomi readings, perfect groups/ signal primitives. - zx573 - 2015-12-05
(2015-12-05, 9:14 am)pm215 Wrote: The good news is that "tell me the on-yomi for character X" is not a skill you'll actually need to read, write, speak or understand the language. I think just learning at the word level is fine; I've never tried to study or learn on-yomi patterns.
I'm the same way. When I first started learning Kanji I focused on trying to learn the onyomi and kunyomi for everything using Anki decks specifically for learning just Kanji, but I feel like that was a waste of time once I got past a certain level. After that I switched to learning new Kanji within the context of vocabulary. Occasionally there are some readings that trip me up the first time I see them in a new word, but when I see a word I don't know, I recall other words that I've seen the Kanji in and base my reading off that. It doesn't work all of the time, but it's enough for me.
For your 大統領 example, I would personally break it down as 大 (だい, pretty simple, don't need to remember anything for it), 統 as in something like 統一 (とういつ), and 領 as in 領域 (りょういき) if I was using my method.
I've been using Japanese every day for a few years now (both producing my own and passively reading) and I've never once said "I wish I had studied onyomi more". I probably couldn't tell you what the onyomi or kunyomi is for any of the Kanji I use since I don't differentiate readings and I don't feel like I'm any worse for it. You're most likely never going to be asked what the onyomi or kunyomi is for a Kanji in a real life situation (outside of Japanese studying-related stuff maybe), so I personally wouldn't stress trying to memorize and categorize all of the readings.
RE: Views on learning on-yomi readings, perfect groups/ signal primitives. - Matthias - 2015-12-05
(2015-12-05, 8:17 am)Sztermel Wrote: ..., do you think that learning these groups would be beneficial and fix some issues I may have in the future?
Is there any anki deck that I could use for that without having to create mine?
Yes, it would be beneficial to know these relations. You will more or less automatically relate to 大統領 when you see new words with 統 or 領. When you go through Core this will help you to learn 統一 (とういつ) → unity, unification or 統計 (とうけい) → statistics.
Yes, "learning at the word level is fine" and many pronounciations are covered by it anyway. But a more systematic appoach to learn relations between different kanji can help you with vocab retention and also to pick up / learn new words which you find somewhere.
There is an easy to find ANKI deck from DrJones which covers Japanese phonetic signal primitives. It covers just the pronounciation (no examples).
And there is the book RTK2 wich gives also example compounds, what is quite helpful for learning. For completeness sake Heisig covered all kanji from RTK1, that means he had to find useful words even for not that often used kanji. That is rather difficult. Also for the more common kanji he could have picked sometimes some more beginner friendly words.
I think that RTK2 covers one third of the kanji with the so called pure and semi-pure group. And together with the mixed you cover more than 50%. Not bad, but you have to accept that even pure kanji are not without exceptions.
This seems to be a good and complete RTK2 deck:
http://kazemakase.ca/remembering-the-kanji-vol-2-anki-deck/
It includes all the RTK2 weaknesses (some uncommon kanji, uncommon words) plus the grouping is only covered by the order of the cards (you learn the members of one group one after the other).
From your example 領 is part of the semi-pure group 令. That includes りょう/れい as readings and later on there is also one example for りん:
領 => りょう 領土 (りょうど) → territory; dominion
令 => れい 令嬢 (れいじょう) → young lady
冷 => れい 冷却 (れいきゃく) → refrigeration; cooling
零 => れい 零時 (れいじ) → 12:00 (noon or midnight)
齢 => れい 高齢 (こうれい) → advanced age
鈴 => れい 電鈴 (でんれい) → an electric bell
鈴 => りん 風鈴 (ふうりん) → wind-bell, wind chime
I find this overview/clustering of information quite useful and if this is done with words you know it should be easy for you to remember.
There are tools to select frequent words for kanji, otherwise it might be quite some effort to adapt the example compounds to your own taste or knowledge e.g. like this:
領 => りょう 大統領 (だいとうりょう) → president (of a country)
令 => れい 命令 (めいれい) → command, order
冷 => れい 冷蔵庫 (れいぞうこ) → refrigerator
零 => れい 零下 (れいか) → below zero, sub-zero
齢 => れい 年齢 (ねんれい) → age, years
鈴 => れい 電鈴 (でんれい) → an electric bell
鈴 => りん 風鈴 (ふうりん) → wind-bell, wind chime
I believe that known/useful compounds do help, but you can also do without:
(2015-09-18, 4:34 am)GreenAirth Wrote: I did RTK2 way back in 2001 with good old flashcards. I didn't try to learn any compounds while I was reviewing the cards, just the on and kun yomis for each one. I was reading novels by the end of the year.
I'm not saying it was easy, but I loved using RTK2. Never understood all the hate or apathy it seems to get.
You could first look at the decks or book and see whether you think that this would suit you. If yes, try just the pure ones. See if it works for you, if you can life with the examples, if you need modifications, ...
You can stop anytime. You can leave out groups which are to complex (some of the mixed groups are quite fragmented). And you can leave out the kanji where you find nothing more useful than 桃源.
RE: Views on learning on-yomi readings, perfect groups/ signal primitives. - bertoni - 2015-12-06
Personally, I found the signal primitives very useful when learning, and still use them today. Guessing a pronunciation is still a reasonable way to look up words, at least as a first shot.
RE: Views on learning on-yomi readings, perfect groups/ signal primitives. - pm215 - 2015-12-07
(2015-12-06, 7:02 pm)bertoni Wrote: Guessing a pronunciation is still a reasonable way to look up words, at least as a first shot.Sure, but you don't need to actively learn signal primitives to be able to do that.
RE: Views on learning on-yomi readings, perfect groups/ signal primitives. - yogert909 - 2015-12-07
I'm about where you are in my learning and just about to start learning perfect groups. My reasoning is there are 192 perfect groups spanning about 500 of the joyo kanji. So it seems like after about 2 weeks of learning I could be absolutely sure of the reading for 1/4 of the kanj I come across. That seems like a pretty sweet deal to me. Pure groups seem pretty attractive too, but I'll assess that after I finish perfect groups.
RE: Views on learning on-yomi readings, perfect groups/ signal primitives. - bertoni - 2015-12-07
(2015-12-07, 4:05 pm)pm215 Wrote:(2015-12-06, 7:02 pm)bertoni Wrote: Guessing a pronunciation is still a reasonable way to look up words, at least as a first shot.Sure, but you don't need to actively learn signal primitives to be able to do that.
True, but learning the signal primitives seemed to help me a lot with it.
RE: Views on learning on-yomi readings, perfect groups/ signal primitives. - Omoishinji - 2015-12-09
(2015-12-07, 6:50 pm)bertoni Wrote: Guessing a pronunciation is still a reasonable way to look up words, at least as a first shot.
Trying to guess the on-yomi by correctly identifying similar kanji is helpful. It comes as a natural part of remembering the on-yomi or Japanese words.