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+-- Forum: Learning Chinese (http://forum.koohii.com/forum-17.html)
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+--- Thread: How would you recommend starting Chinese? (/thread-13197.html)
How would you recommend starting Chinese? - Womacks23 - 2010-03-29
What methods would you use?
What sources?
Etc...
How would you recommend starting Chinese? - deathtrap - 2010-03-29
Go buy Remember Simplified Hanzi or Remembering Traditional Hanzi. This will help you learn and memorize the characters immensely. Start doing 20 or however many you want per day, just be consistent and do it every day.
Download the software called Anki so that you can review the characters.
Go get a free account at ChinesePod.com and start with the newbie lessons. Start from lesson one in the Newbie section. Listen to the podcasts and look at the dialogue transcript. At first you'll be thinking "wtf is this" , but after studying a number of lessons it'll start to click on its own. Just be sure to fully study each lesson, don't move on to the next one until you understand what each word means. After you study about 50 lessons or so expect to ramp up your pace of studying since there will be little new grammar from that point on and it'll just be about learning the few new vocab in each lesson.
Make sure you create a deck in Anki for your ChinesePod learning, put in sentences with their pinyin + english meaning and review them regularly.
Use http://www.nciku.com to look up anything you're not sure about. It's an fantastic resource. It has definitions for characters, sentences, sound clips...etc.
This will get you started with a very low $$ investment, or none at all if you know where to "acquire" Remembering Simplified Hanzi
There is also the book titled "New Practical Chinese Reader". I have it but haven't gone through it yet. It's 6 volumes in total. Going from clueless to intermediate. It's a bit expensive since there's the Book + Audio CD + Workbook + Teachers Book. You could probably jus get by with the book but you would be missing a key component which is listening/speaking but if you're ok with that then give it a shot.
Just remember, it's not about any one perfect learning resource, it's about getting exposure, learning new vocab, grammar and sentence patterns. The BIGGEST aspect though, and I mean BIGGEST as in bigger than big, is to BE CONSISTENT and study regularly. Whether thats 30 minutes or 5 hours a day, it doesn't matter as long as you do it regularly, otherwise nothing will stick with you and your efforts will be wasted.
Good luck.
How would you recommend starting Chinese? - Womacks23 - 2010-03-30
Thanks for the reply. I've ordered the New Practical Chinese Reader and started working on remembering the hanzi (traditional).
Do you guys know of any kind of large bank of Chinese sentences with audio like the core 6000 series?
How would you recommend starting Chinese? - LazyNomad - 2010-03-30
After finishing and mastering RTK1,2,3 does it worth to learn through RTH and RSH?
How would you recommend starting Chinese? - Womacks23 - 2010-03-30
LazyNomad Wrote:After finishing and mastering RTK1,2,3 does it worth to learn through RTH and RSH?I'm up above 200 in RTH and I've already come across 20 or so that are not in RTK 1 or 3.
But, I'm not exactly working through the book in a standard way. I'm only adding to my anki deck hanzi that are not in RTK 1, have major style variations (焼 / 燒), or have significant differences in meaning.
RSH is a whole different game though.
How would you recommend starting Chinese? - zer0range - 2010-03-30
LazyNomad Wrote:After finishing and mastering RTK1,2,3 does it worth to learn through RTH and RSH?Only you can know this . Here's how you can tell.
Take a simple grammar book, or ChinesePod, ZhongWen Red, whatever... start learning sentences. Assuming you're using an SRS, set up some sentences with cloze deletion (ie: take: 这本书很有意思。 and make it into: 这本shu1很有意思。 or even as simple as 你好先生， 你hao3先生）
If you can easily use imaginative memory to learn these Hanzi, then you don't need to do RTH. If you find your retention is too poor, it's probably because of variances in radicals (the biggest coming from Kanji to simplified characters.) at which point you will want to advance in another direction with RTH.
Also, I would recommend not learning how to write both systems. Pick one that you will write (they both have pros and cons) and learn how to write that one. Reading the other will come through exposure and frequent lookups.
How would you recommend starting Chinese? - LazyNomad - 2010-03-31
Thanks for replies. What about meanings of the same kanji? Is there a lot of difference between RTK and RTH?
How would you recommend starting Chinese? - ropsta - 2010-03-31
Womacks23 Wrote:Do you guys know of any kind of large bank of Chinese sentences with audio like the core 6000 series?Smartfm has an entire mandarin-chinese course.
How would you recommend starting Chinese? - ChristopherB - 2010-04-01
deathtrap Wrote:Go buy Remember Simplified Hanzi or Remembering Traditional Hanzi. This will help you learn and memorize the characters immensely. Start doing 20 or however many you want per day, just be consistent and do it every day.I was about to write all of this, but I was beaten to it. I agree with everything said here.
Download the software called Anki so that you can review the characters.
Go get a free account at ChinesePod.com and start with the newbie lessons. Start from lesson one in the Newbie section. Listen to the podcasts and look at the dialogue transcript. At first you'll be thinking "wtf is this" , but after studying a number of lessons it'll start to click on its own. Just be sure to fully study each lesson, don't move on to the next one until you understand what each word means. After you study about 50 lessons or so expect to ramp up your pace of studying since there will be little new grammar from that point on and it'll just be about learning the few new vocab in each lesson.
I would recommend ChinesePod for listening comprehension, and so using the pinyin to develop some measure of proficiency in that area, while using Heisig alongside. After you have have learned the 1500 characters, since the second volume isn't out yet, get a copy of Rick Harbaugh's dictionary and work through it in the same fashion to bring your character total to 4280. Right after Heisig though, I would very much recommend getting hold of the DeFrancis readers to begin actually reading. Part 1, the Beginning reader introduces the 400 most common characters, the Intermediate another 400 and the Advanced reader another 400, so all the characters covered in the set are learned in book one of Heisig. So you could start the sentence method (using Anki of course) by entering the illustrative sentences for each lesson (which contain an example of each combination learned) and after that, go through all the lessons you've studied for Chinesepod and studying in the same way the sentences in Chinese. I haven't reached this stage yet myself, but it's almost certainly what I'll do. You need some structure to learn Chinese, it just makes it so much easier.
How would you recommend starting Chinese? - kfmfe04 - 2010-04-07
After mulling various possibilities, I decided to use the wordlists from here for studying Traditional characters using pinyin:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Test_of_Proficiency-Huayu
I am entering the first 800 from the beginner's list into this iPod Touch program:
http://hippodict.com/
Then I plan on using Hippodict's Supermemo-based flashcards on iPod Touch. Cramming vocabulary actually works better in Mandarin than in Japanese. Unlike Japanese with its various politeness levels, verb conjugations, multiple readings per Kanji, and grammar constructs, if you just memorize Chinese vocabulary and readings, you have learnt at least 90-95% of the language - enough to understand Chinese without even studying grammar.
I know the basics of Chinese pronunciation and I have gone through RTK, so cramming vocabulary with a view to get to reading Chinese text ASAP is the best approach for me.
I recommend that you evaluate what you know already know and research how Chinese is different from Japanese, before you pick an approach that works best for you. GL!
How would you recommend starting Chinese? - gyuujuice - 2010-04-07
"Do you guys know of any kind of large bank of Chinese sentences with audio like the core 6000 series?"
Actually, I do. lol
http://smart.fm/series/3325
It is designed for intermediate students (allready one year under the belt) but I assume it's awesome.
How would you recommend starting Chinese? - deathtrap - 2010-04-07
What exactly do phrases like "one year under the belt" mean? Is it university classes? highschool classes? self study? if it's classes then how many hours per week would qualify for "one year" ?
How would you recommend starting Chinese? - kfmfe04 - 2010-04-07
deathtrap Wrote:What exactly do phrases like "one year under the belt" mean? Is it university classes? highschool classes? self study? if it's classes then how many hours per week would qualify for "one year" ?No need to nitpick; I think gyuujuice just means to have at least some exposure to Chinese before you start.
Since start.fm is free, it only takes a few moments to determine if it is too easy or too hard for you. IMHO, trying it out is much faster than arguing about the literal meaning his comment. BTW, good suggestion, gyuujuice.
How would you recommend starting Chinese? - deathtrap - 2010-04-07
I wasn't actually nitpicking. It was a serious question...
How would you recommend starting Chinese? - kfmfe04 - 2010-04-07
LazyNomad Wrote:Thanks for replies. What about meanings of the same kanji? Is there a lot of difference between RTK and RTH?When I first approached using RTH, I had similar thoughts/questions as you. Let me explain how I personally went through deciding the best approach.
After buying RTH1 and browsing through to see the differences with RTK, I began to think deeply about what I got out of finishing RTK. The specific keywords turned out to be not so important - they fell away once I picked up some real vocabulary. What was valuable to me were becoming familiar with Kanji, being able to write them, and having at least one rough meaning for that Kanji. Also very useful were having names for the radicals and knowing how to make stories for new Kanji/Hanzi. The real work seemed to lay beyond RTK - still a ton of vocabulary and readings left; in short, RTK was most useful for lowering the Kanji hurdle.
The critical question now is, if I have already completed RTK, how much more will RTH help me towards learning Chinese?
Note the following:
1. Chinese grammar is much simpler than Japanese - no conjugations. It's mostly word order and sentence patterns.
2. Chinese is initially harder to pronounce than Japanese, but unlike Kanji, each Hanzi only has one monosyllabic reading, so it turns out to be much easier to learn in the middle to long run.
3. You need to study more Hanzi than Kanji, perhaps 2 to 3 times as many.
4. Generally, Hanzi meanings are the same as Kanji meanings, but usage many differ.
5. When designing RTK, Heisig stripped readings from RTK1 and RTK2 and stuck them in RTK3 for a very good reason - there are too many readings for each character so there would have been too much to learn all at once. This doesn't apply to Chinese, but Heisig did not accomodate when he did RTH.
Due to these differences between Chinese and Japanese and from looking at the difference between RTH and RTK, my conclusion was that RTH and RTK were too similar, and there was too little to be gained from just doing RTH. However, had Heisig included readings and a greater number of Hanzi, I may have gone with RTH.
So my personal opinion is, if you already did RTK, RTH may be too small a step, in terms of learning new materials and in terms of breadth (not enough Hanji) to be of much value. So for my personal studies, I looked for a better approach to tackle the problems specific to Chinese. You will still gain by plowing through RTH; I just reached my conclusions by being more critical about studying efficiently.
But if you have never done RTK and don't know any CJK languages, it would be extremely useful to go through RTH for Chinese and RTK for Japanese, respectively.
How would you recommend starting Chinese? - kfmfe04 - 2010-04-07
zer0range Wrote:Also, I would recommend not learning how to write both systems. Pick one that you will write (they both have pros and cons) and learn how to write that one. Reading the other will come through exposure and frequent lookups.I second zerOrange's suggestion - it's better to learn one system well and the other one will eventually fall into place.
How would you recommend starting Chinese? - Womacks23 - 2010-04-07
Just to let you guys know. I've been doing RTH at about 150 frames a day for a week now. So if you know RTK you can get through RTH in a very short amount of time with no problems at all.
How would you recommend starting Chinese? - bflatnine - 2010-04-07
If I remember correctly, there are only around 350 characters in RTH that aren't in RTK. Many of those are very similar (like 樂/楽).
As far as "one year of Chinese," you can generally assume that people are referring to one year of university Chinese. Of course, some universities are slower-paced than others. But it generally means you've completed a first year textbook like PCR I.
How would you recommend starting Chinese? - lagwagon555 - 2010-04-07
I'm also thinking about starting Chinese. I'm almost done with RTK (Holy moly I've been saying that for a long time...), and have only learned very elementary Japanese (25 lessons of Assimil, plus stuff I've picked up on). But I'm sick of the lack of Japanese people around here! I'm not one to go around chasing down people and being their friend just because they're Japanese. And the amount of Japanese people I met on a daily basis over the past year is less than I can count on a hand. Recently, I saw there was a Japanese person in my tutorial, and I literally barged past people to make sure I got to sit next to him haha.
On the other hand, I meet Chinese people on a daily basis. Just being able to speak to people I see everyday would be a huge motivational booster, since when it comes to speaking to people, I might aswell be learning Latin instead of Japanese.
All that's holding me back is pronunciation (certainly seems a heck of alot harder than Japanese, and without a teacher I don't really know how I'll fare), and the thought of having to learn even more hanzi nearly puts me of by itself.
I swear this post had something to do with the OP when I first thought of it. Oh well.
How would you recommend starting Chinese? - bflatnine - 2010-04-08
lagwagon555 Wrote:All that's holding me back is pronunciation (certainly seems a heck of alot harder than Japanese, and without a teacher I don't really know how I'll fare)The FSI Pronunciation and Romanization module, while dry as hell, is still the best thing I've ever seen for pronunciation. You'll need P&R tapes 1-6 and the Resource Module (PDF). Drill these few lessons for about a week or so, and you'll have good pronunciation.
How would you recommend starting Chinese? - kfmfe04 - 2010-04-08
The tapes bflatnine suggested will be a good start.
What you want to do is test your readings on a real Chinese person and see if they understand you. Ultimately, you need this feedback to tell you if you are on track.
Just read a sentence to them and see if they understand you. If not, ask them to read it and attempt to repeat. They will help correct your pitch and/or your mouth shape/tongue position.
With some practice, your listening and speaking will improve over time. I think Chinese pronunciation is more difficult than Japanese in the beginning, due to tones and mouth shape/tongue positions that you are not used to. But once you get over these hurdles, it's easier than Japanese, because just about all Hanzi readings are monosyllabic and singular.
How would you recommend starting Chinese? - chamcham - 2010-04-08
If you're going to learn Chinese, I'd recommend watching streaming Chinese TV channels.
It turns out that China is the center of the Peer-to-Peer (P2P) TV software craze.
You can find streaming TV software at the following sites:
TVUPlayer (you can watch TV on the website):
http://tvunetworks.com/
TVAnts:
http://tvants.en.softonic.com/
PPStream (Chinese):
http://www.ppstream.com/
PPLive (Chinese):
http://www.pptv.com/
SOPCast:
http://www.sopcast.org/
UUsee (Chinese)
http://www.uusee.com/
QQLive (Chinese)
http://im.qq.com/
How would you recommend starting Chinese? - gyuujuice - 2010-04-08
"No need to nitpick; I think gyuujuice just means to have at least some exposure to Chinese before you start. "
Right, though I remember it saying this was meant for students who have studied at a university for a year and understand 800 words. I don't think it really matters. I glanced at it and there seem to be both difficult and simple words.
There is a popular Chinese "grammar site" like Tae Kim's.
http://www.zhongwenred.com/
It seems very nice. I started it to see how Chinese works because I was wonder how the single-syllabel character system effected the language.
In my opnion and of Katsu's I think you should work on memorizing 2000-4000 漢字 first, depending on how far you would like to learn Chinese. Then memorise Pinyin by using Smartfm, anki and just by plain reading. Work through ZhongwenRed and input sentences as you read native sources.
I wanted to keep this short but I took the 7 day trial for Chinesepod and I have to say that I like it a lot more than the Japanesepod. I couldn't stand the Japanese program but I used the Chinesepod before leaving for San Fransisco's China town for a family vacation. In one week I could understand 30% of the (Chinese) music I listened to. Listening is so much easier in Chinese for me since it is often pronounced the same way. (It also helps me speak better because I struggle with a tempo speech disability.)
I'm waiting until next year to start Chinese.
(n_n)/ 中文加油！
How would you recommend starting Chinese? - socrat - 2010-04-08
I'm heavy into Japanese, but here's one cute trick with Chinese (my wife is chinese so have some basic conv. down)
For food items most things are new to china like tomatoes, wine, and a lot of fruits.
So if you don't know the word just say western+color+flower/fruit/liquor for example and they will understand and you'll get a good laugh....
Example:
Tomato: shi hon si (western red persimmon)
Broccoli: da lui ha (big green flower (my invention but works
)Red Wine: shi hon jo (western red liquor)
At least it will help you to start thinking in Chinese.
Also, to make a word cuter chinese like to repeat it...
haieR haieR (little girl little girl) (the eR on the end is a Beijing accent and can add to a lot of words)
berber (baby baby)
etc...
Lastly, a lot of things have negative + positive in a question...
like dui bu dui (yes not yes?) (That's right isn't it?)
ting bu jian (listened but not hear) (I can't hear you)
If in doubt when speaking kinda of shout the words and it will sound more natural
How would you recommend starting Chinese? - nest0r - 2010-04-08
If you want more Chinese sentences with audio: http://chinesepod.com/tools/glossary/entry/%E6%96%87%E9%9D%99
It's possible to say, make a deck of Anki cards with that URL and the method described here: http://forum.koohii.com/viewtopic.php?pid=99109#p99109 (The Spanish Only link+comments esp.)... you might have noticed later in the thread that someone definitely didn't link to a French Core deck made in such a fashion.
I would also recommend any PC users studying any language and not wanting to be stuck with a browser-only pop-up dictionary (Rikaichan) to download StarDict and Google for the torrent of Stardict dictionaries, as they took the good ones off the sourceforge site... don't know how long the seeds will last.