+- kanji koohii FORUM (http://forum.koohii.com)
+-- Forum: Learning Japanese (http://forum.koohii.com/forum-4.html)
+--- Forum: Learning resources (http://forum.koohii.com/forum-9.html)
+--- Thread: Remembering the Kana (/thread-13084.html)
Remembering the Kana - Dudeist - 2015-10-15
I am doing RTKanji almost 700 done
I just ordered the RTKana from amazon.
I was thinking of waiting till after Kanji to do Kana but I was thinking it might be better to start ASAP so when I finish Kanji I will have had a bit of time to do reviews in Anki and learn the Kana well before starting Genki1.
Are there any issues with doing both side by side?
Remembering the Kana - Raulsen - 2015-10-16
There's a good chance that you're in the minority by learning Kanji first and then moving on to Kana. For most, it's the other way around.
While you said you just ordered the book on Amazon, if you can still cancel, I'd go with that. Truth be told, if you've made it as far as you have in RTK without getting frustrated, then I'd definitely say you could learn both Hiragana and Katakana over the course of a single weekend.
There are plenty of free resources out there as well. When I first started, I used the one here: http://www.mlcjapanese.co.jp/Download/HiraganaKatakanaWorkSheet.pdf
It's absolutely free, and packs in everything you'd ever need to memorize them.
Remembering the Kana - RawrPk - 2015-10-16
Agreed. You can learn kana for free.
http://japanese.gatech.edu/WebCTVista/JAPN1001/contents/Lesson02/hiragana/mnemonic-hiragana.html
http://japanese.gatech.edu/WebCTVista/JAPN1001/contents/Lesson02/katakana/mnemonic-katakana.html
That is a website that shows kana Mnemonics. Use this as a supplement. The mnemonics helped for me cuz I can sorta place a story to each of them.
Remembering the Kana - CureDolly - 2015-10-16
Wow! 700 kanji and no kana. It feels kind of surreal. But then that is exactly what Heisig-sensei recommends, isn't it?
I'd agree with Raulsen-san here. Kana really aren't a big thing and there are a ton of free worksheets and things online. Though maybe Heisig-sensei has some good mnemonics, and if you want a bit of help memorizing them, why not go for it.
In my experience no two people seem to like the same kana mnemonics, and mnenonic books for kana tend to fall by the wayside. But I don't know Heisig-sensei's kana books at all.
Remembering the Kana - RawrPk - 2015-10-16
If you don't like those mnemonics I listed, Tofugu made their own as well.
http://www.tofugu.com/guides/learn-hiragana/
http://www.tofugu.com/guides/learn-katakana/
[EDIT] I also found practicing to read lyrics to Japanese songs you like helps reinforce the kana. Like read (sing) along as the song plays. If there is kanji, that is what Rikaisama is for
Remembering the Kana - CureDolly - 2015-10-16
Just took a look at the Tofugu hiragana page. I used that upside down A in あ as a way to distinguish it from お and have told it to several people. I thought it was my own discovery! Lucky I didn't try to patent it!
In fact if I have one piece of advice for the kana learner, it is pick out the confusable groups （notably め、ぬ and ね、れ、わ) and find a clear way to distinguish their members in your mind. There are only a few confusables, but it really makes life easier.
Actually, even though I am a bit notorious for saying you don't necessarily need to write kanji, I did learn kana in conjunction with writing them and, unlike Koichi-san (whom I respect) I do think it is a good idea to do so.
Remembering the Kana - Katsuo - 2015-10-16
CureDolly Wrote:Wow! 700 kanji and no kana. It feels kind of surreal. But then that is exactly what Heisig-sensei recommends, isn't it?On the back cover of one of Heisig’s Remembering the Kana books it says, “By following a method of “imaginative memory,” you will not only end up knowing how to write the syllabary by heart, but you will know how you did it! And with that skill in hand, you will be ready to face the study of the kanji with full confidence.”
This implies learning kana before kanji.
Remembering the Kana - CureDolly - 2015-10-16
Katsuo Wrote:Sou desu ka. I haven't seen the kana book so I wasn't aware of this. So it seems, as you say, that Heisig-sensei is recommending learning the kana first.CureDolly Wrote:Wow! 700 kanji and no kana. It feels kind of surreal. But then that is exactly what Heisig-sensei recommends, isn't it?On the back cover of one of Heisig’s Remembering the Kana books it says, “By following a method of “imaginative memory,” you will not only end up knowing how to write the syllabary by heart, but you will know how you did it! And with that skill in hand, you will be ready to face the study of the kanji with full confidence.”
This implies learning kana before kanji.
The question that immediately arises in my mind is: why?
I always recommend starting to use the kana immediately after learning them. However one likes. Labeling household items, reading simple ehon, songs (there are some good small children's songs on Youtube with hiragana jimaku), texting おはよう to your friends. Anything you like. But once you have them, use them.
Now admittedly this is in line with my whole philosophy of learning Japanese by using it, but even if one wasn't using our overall approach I would strongly recommend this. The best way to consolidate them is use them. The best way to forget them is not to use them.
So why exactly would one learn the kana and then spend the next several moths learning 700 or however many kanji without a single reading, thus having no use at all for the kana one has just learned.
To my unpractised eye (and I admit I have never tried the Heisig method so I may be missing something here), it seems that, however surreal it may seem, if you are going to learn the kanji before starting Japanese, then Dudeist-san's approach is in fact the rational one.
Surely it makes more sense to learn the kana at the point when you are going to start actually using them.
Remembering the Kana - EratiK - 2015-10-16
CureDolly Wrote:So why exactly would one learn the kana and then spend the next several moths learning 700 or however many kanji without a single reading, thus having no use at all for the kana one has just learned.Kana are syllabaries, strictly speaking they have nothing to do with readings. Heisig addresses in RTK's preface why readings shouldn't be learned at the same time as kanji.
It's also possible to maintain kana without using them in context.
Remembering the Kana - yukamina - 2015-10-16
It'd make sense to me to start studying the Kana and practice reading and writing simple words and sentences now, so that when you finish RTK, the Kana will be in your long term memory. That way when you start studying Japanese more, you won't be slow and stilted with reading/writing.
Remembering the Kana - yogert909 - 2015-10-16
While I think it does make some sense to learn kana first (so you can use it immediately and all the things cure dolly said) I don't think it makes much difference one way or the other. Dudeist seems to be going at a pretty good clip and will be done with RTK in a few months. It seems like he's front loading RTK, so he won't be reading anything in kanji or kana until he's done learning both. I think that's a reasonable approach and if there's a reason for doing it another way, the effect will be small.
Regarding OP's exact question, I don't believe there is much practical difference learning kana first, last or in parallel. The only problem I see is that he could occasionally have some confusion between kanji and kana while learning them in parallel. It's pretty easy to tell them apart, so even if there is some confusion I believe the effect would be small. I'm talking about a split second indecision wether a character should be understood phonetically or pictographically. But I can conceive the possibility that this could create some friction.
I would caution against learning katakana and hiragana in parallel to each other however as they are easy to get confused with each other. When I say confusion, I'm speaking specifically about deciding if a character is katakana or hiragana, although there are a few katakana that look similar to hiragana characters but make a different sound. It's inevitable that there will be some confusion between them, but learning them in parallel is sure to exacerbate the situation.
Remembering the Kana - ファブリス - 2015-10-16
No, there are no issues, at all, whatsoever, considering learning to read and recognize the kana can be done in a weekend, up to a week. Writing it from memory takes longer. But just being able to read is incredibly useful.
I learnt the kana before RTK and it was incredibly useful. If I looked up kanji in a dictionary, I could read the pronunciation. I could also start searching by pronunciation in eg. Kodansha's furigana Japanese/English dictionary. I felt like I was a wizard, and already somewhat familiar with Japanese even before I could formulate a sentence.
Makes no sense whatsoever to postpone the kana if you are going to learn Japanese. In fact it makes no sense whatsoever to postpone all Japanese study for after you finished RTK. And so if you are not learning the kana already, why are you even studying Japanese? Don't you want to read at least something? Play some Japanese games and make out a bunch of imported words? Go to Japan and read the whole Mc Donalds menu? (pretty much, and laugh at all the butchered english).
TLDR Put down RTK. Learn kana, both hiragana and katakana. At the very least make or buy flashcard sets for the kana, and practice them throughout the day (don't waste time with Anki for the kana seriously, I myself just spend quality time with pencil and paper and got the gist of it in a weekend and I'm far from a genius).
PS: Plus, if you already started RTK and understood the value of mnemonics, you'lll probably want to make a few.. however be prepared for brute force learning because there is little regularity (I personally never did Heisig's kana books).
Remembering the Kana - Dudeist - 2015-10-16
No issues? Good.
The book has already been sent along with a copy of English Grammar for students of Japanese. All RTK and no anything else make a Dudeist go something something. So too late for that.
I'll have a look at the links though.
I was originally planning on finishing off RTKanji then doing RTKana then moving to actual Japanese [Genki1]
I guess the idea of finishing one before doing the other.
I slightly considered doing Kana first but as others have pointed out, it doesn't take too long so might as well put it closer to when I am ready to use it rather than learn it up front and sit on it for a few months. Also the first 12 chapters of Kanji are available as a free sample so I was able to try before I buy, I've failed so often at language in the past, I didn't want to spend any money still I had some evidence I could stick to it and do it.
ファブリス Wrote:Makes no sense whatsoever to postpone the kana if you are going to learn Japanese. In fact it makes no sense whatsoever to postpone all Japanese study for after you finished RTK. And so if you are not learning the kana already, why are you even studying Japanese? Don't you want to read at least something? Play some Japanese games and make out a bunch of imported words? Go to Japan and read the whole Mc Donalds menu? (pretty much, and laugh at all the butchered english).1: I write everything down even with reviewing mature cards with the Anki. I find there is great value with actually trying to recall something vs just writing stuff down over and over. I'd assume the same would apply for Kana.
TLDR Put down RTK. Learn kana, both hiragana and katakana. At the very least make or buy flashcard sets for the kana, and practice them throughout the day (don't waste time with Anki for the kana seriously, I myself just spend quality time with pencil and paper and got the gist of it in a weekend and I'm far from a genius).
PS: Plus, if you already started RTK and understood the value of mnemonics, you'lll probably want to make a few.. however be prepared for brute force learning because there is little regularity (I personally never did Heisig's kana books).
2:As for making sense or no sence.
I don't consider myself to be studying Japanese. I tell people that I am simply learning to write Kanji with seemingly random English words attached and that is it. The way I see it, it is like spending the summer lifting weights and jogging before hockey season. You are not doing hockey but doing so will put you miles ahead of those who spent their summers fishing and playing golf as was the NHL style before the 60's. Based on recent studies it seems that doing multiple sports over the year results in better players than the one sport wonders at least for kids. Not that this point applies here.
Much of the advice I've read about RTK is that you "waste" a few hundred hours up front but it really pays off in the future. Much like those Chinese people who don't have those WTF moments because they are used to dealing with the Hanzi and have a much easier time of it then us Anglos. If you look at the JLPT wiki page, there is a significant time difference between what people who know a character based language need vs the rest of us. At least part of that I'd guess is that they are used to dealing with characters.
3: Also the order of RTK builds up from a base, I'd assume Kanji in textbooks are present in order of word usefulness regardless of complexity. It would seem to make no sense to even bother with RTK if you are just going to dive into Japanese.
I have nothing to read. Probably the only person here it seems who has no interest in Anime or Manga. Don't play games... addictive. Nowhere near going to Japan and by the time I do I should be far beyond kana. I don't know a single Japanese person.
If it wasn't for tones I'd be doing Chinese, if it wasn't for sizable numbers of letters that in English sound just alike and a script which is both complex and lacks memory games to help I'd be doing Hindi.
So waiting a few months to start learning Japanese isn't a huge thing for me.
I know I am 46 and the impending gloom of death is close by but meh, what's a few more months. What's 250 or so hours added to the 4K plus to get even reasonably good. Especially if that 250 might save me even more as many people say it will.
Remembering the Kana - ファブリス - 2015-10-17
I see. If you like to be busy with something consider also Japanese calligraphy. It goes along really well with the RTK books, and you may even be allowed to skip some lessons since you will be familiar with the stroke orders.
Remembering the Kana - Dudeist - 2015-10-17
ファブリス Wrote:I see. If you like to be busy with something consider also Japanese calligraphy. It goes along really well with the RTK books, and you may even be allowed to skip some lessons since you will be familiar with the stroke orders.I've been really sloppy with my writing. Been more focused on getting through RTK rather than getting things perfect. I'd like to get to Genki ASAP.