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A small (success?) story - manman2a - 2015-08-19
(I am not studying for JLPT)
Thanks for all the support here.
It has been ~4 months since I last posted. Here are some of my posts and as evident by them, I was a confused beginner.
http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?tid=12475
http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?tid=12697 (And yes I gave in by using Japaneselevelup's decks, but it has paid off immensely)
I have tackled ~N3 grammar, made transition to J-J, have ~4200 words under my belt (3000 of which are solo J-J), can understand ~80-90% of shounen anime (Due to poor listening I use kitsunekko japanese subtitles ;_;, but getting there),reading Kaiji and Attack on Titan (and enjoying them a lot), finished Level 4 of Graded readers a month ago (To think Level 1 used to give me goosebumps), have "エンターの神様” as my new comedy fix, can enjoy Death Note but sometimes I get stuck (although RTK knowledge helps greatly for guessing many meanings), can chat with (atleast understand) real japanese people.
I cannot however understand 100% (with exception of yotsuba). It gets close to 99% but there is always 1 unknown word. News still a bit over my head, particularly interviews with people.
As you can see, I obviously cannot clear N1 or maybe even N2 (I tried reading some of the texts but failed
) or something like that (I started learning Japanese ~November 15 2014), but I'll still consider my progression up to now a success. Especiallt the graded reader part. I was going through my old posts (and cringing like "did I really ask that. stupid me" and these are some advices in the comments that stood out to me, now. After 3 months. I don't know how/why I ignored/forgot them, but they would have been pretty helpful (If I had paid attention):
"As long as you learn your vocab by drilling sentences rather than just plain vocab drills, and you make sure to keep reading level appropriate materials while you study your vocab, grammar should not be a worry at all."
-----This is so accurate. Sentences>Vocabulary Alone 100%
"For example once you have ~3000-5000 words you can generally read most shounen manga (what he seems to be interested in) without much trouble."
-----I am currently feeling this. I mean I don't understand everything, like ranks, technique names without context, but enough for a painless read (80-90%)
"ALWAYS make sure you have time for native materiel in your study routine. Even if you can't find anything you can understand now, just get something you like that others tell you is easy enough to understand, and keep that materiel around you. One day, just like magic, it will suddenly make sense."
-----This happened to me with Yotsubato!. After ~1000 words, I started reading it. Painless, enjoyable and childlike. I finished 3 volumes in 1 day, then obviously got bored.
"You should initially spend more time studying and less time with native materials, and then gradually start spending more and more time with native materials and less and less time studying."
-----Exactly my progression.
"You can take your English deck and have the Anki add-on reorganise any j-j Deck to be as close to i+1 as possible. I did this with both my meaning and expression field for the one deck. "
-----Morphman-sama
"Using a children's J-J dictionary is a nice hack for learners trying to make J-J cards."
-----Agreed! But, in the beginning it's not really helpful because you don't know what anything means, but it's easier with branching, although many words are not included. In the end it's a bit useless because, let's face it, the definitions are a bit dumbed down. I prefer Goo dictionary. It is definitely helpful somewhere in between and I have it them a lot!
.....And here are some comments I DISAGREE to some extent. I am not criticizing anybody (I am not at a level to do so), just stating my disagreement:
"I think at any level, you can find native materiel to enjoy"
-----Partially true, but it took me atleast 1500 words to start enjoying stuff xD
"I personally wouldn't pay for JLVLUP decks because they cost as much as textbooks basically while being measly small packs of sentences. They're pretty good, but they're way way overpriced if you value your money. Buy some manga instead, or even better use the money to buy a children's J-J dictionary."
-----I disagree with this partly. (Sorry I am going to be a bit defensive. Read the following in Morgan Freeman's voice.). I wanted to go monolingual. I tired your idea and bought a volume of yotsubato and children's dictionary. It was not simple at first. Here is my experience: Branching is a tough process, and what words to include, exclude , common definitions to include etc. made my head spin. Many words were in hiragana so it was tough deciding which kanji and words to add without checking English definition. 性格 or 正確?
I had heard about people doing CORE 2K , THEN making transition to J-J and said, screw it, I'll save J-J for later. But I decided to buy the decks anyway (the $260 bundle of 4000 cards).I was ready to make journey into J-J with just N4 level grammar. The first 100 cards were tough, but it was a pretty smooth ride afterwards. I also noticed that my ability improved drastically because I started spending all of my time in Japanese. Japanese definitions use Japanese words so it's kind of a review. Although I agree the stages of decks are expensive, but bundles are comparatively and reasonably priced.
I'd argue Genki 1+2 is expensive since a clearly better alternative (Tae Kim. It's a GOD grammar guide for beginners and I highly recommend checking it out) exists. I cannot find alternative to JalUp decks. (tell me if it does. I tried Tanuki but it was too much of a hassel at my previous level).
"There is no simple answer (for how many words to learn) because every case is different and depends on so many factors that it's barely worth even discussing. I'd wager that if you stick with studying Japanese you'll come to a point where you look back on the current you who asked this question and simply laugh"
-----This is 90% correct, but I really feel like giving someone goal of 5000 words or so for shounen anime is better than saying "Everyone is different. I can't help you". And it works. But it also depends on what kinds of words are being learned (common or obscure) you you are partially right. I have a goal of ~10,000 sentences (Ajatt) which motivates me.
The whole point of this long post was:
1. To advanced used I would like to thank you for your advice even if it took me a few months to understand them. I hope I will be able to reach your level
2. I want to say this to beginners: do not give up learning this awesome language.
皆頑張りましょう！
A small (success?) story - poblequadrat - 2015-08-20
Congratulations!
So how exactly did you study? Tae Kim, JALup decks and manga? What was your routine like? I'm interested because after I'm done with Heisig I'd like to study vocabulary systematically, but vocabulary lists/decks usually include tons of newspaper jargon which I think it'd be better to learn later on. Did you have any resource that let you determine the formality of words?
A small (success?) story - yogert909 - 2015-08-20
Yes, Congratulations manman!
If you don't mind a few more questions, do you have any idea how many hours you have invested at this point? Also, what j-j deck are you using jlup, something else, or did you make your own? Is it simply kanji word on front and a short definition on the back, or something else?
A small (success?) story - kapalama - 2015-08-20
Also contribute to the design a system thread.
Even if it just do this, then do that.
A small (success?) story - manman2a - 2015-08-20
@kapalama I am sorry but I don't follow you.
@yogert909 I am immersing a lot, so excluding those, I think ~800. Incuding it, it might be over ~1,500 hours. Edit: It is worthwhile to mention that nowadays I spend 1-1.5 hour in anki and 3-4 hours enjoying Native media.
@poblequadrat
Here is the short version : I used many things but except for heisig, nothing seemed to work. Heisig 2 was a complete failure. Japaneselevelup worked for me. Read http://japaneselevelup.com/japanese-quest-walkthrough/ . It's an organized system to "level up" your Japanese.
Long version of my story and methods:
Since I have been taking notes, here's my progress and what I did. I will be mentioning only the major things I did (since I did a LOT of things like AJATT, Genki,Japanese Manga Way,Mangaland,Memrise decks, My Japanese Coach etc. but dropped them after some time). I will also refer to some posts I made along the way as they serve as time capsules
:-~15 Nov 2015: Started Heisig with 25 cards a day. Nothing else.
~15 Dec 2015: Had a week off because I thought I will never make it. Watched an episode Detective Conan subbed, recognized a kanji, got motivated again to restart Heisig. Started Tae Kim guide and downloaded an Anki recognition deck based on it. I will continue to read this over the next few months. (I read the Grammar Guide, not Complete Guide, till ~N4 i.e. until and including "Things that should be a certain way （はず、べき、べく、べからず）" ). TK is a non-fluff foundation building guide which every learner should read.
~15 January 2015: Started JapanesePod101.com with 2-3 lessons/day. Started the Nihongo Dojo Order. Rather than listening once, I used put the dialogues in my phone and played the ~1 minute dialogues everyday while working, jogging etc. and delete the ones I found "too easy".
~15 February 2015: Finished RTK (http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?pid=216840#pid216840 search for my tag "manman2a") I was now afraid. What now? Grammar? Vocabulary? For the next two months I did what my mind pleased. I made Anki decks out of Japanesepod101 vocab (the process is described here http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?tid=12569). DOBJG decks etc. I dropped making the Japanesepod101 deck and just deleted it because I couldn't find benefits.
~15 March/April 2015: Finished Tae Kim and JapanesePod101. Started reading Yotsubato! thinking "I have ~600 words under my belt, so this should be a piece of cake". Obviously because i did everything "by the books" with "no immersion" I couldn't understand: 1. ~70% words because I didn't know them, and 2. ~30% words because they were slangs and in hiragana. Needless to say, I got a bit depressed. I wanted to achieve atleast something and fast. I needed goals and milestones which resulted in posts like ( http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?tid=12629). I was lacking an organized system. Maybe I need classes? Maybe Japanese was not for me? It would take me years to understand Yotsubato!....
~15 May 2015 - ~15 August 2015: ......Or so I thought. I found japaneselevelup.com and was intrigued by the methods. I tried sentence method for first 200 cards of core decks, and it worked marvelously. The author (Adam) also preached about going monolingual which caught my attention (http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?tid=12697)
I bought the $260 package for 4000 hand-crafted card +motivation,tips and tricks etc. There were other bonuses too (like 13,000 wild cards) but IMHO, they were useless because I was still at a lower level (and still am). For unfamiliar, these are sentence decks. They have sentence on the front, and meaning of the unknown word ONLY at the back. So every sentence is like a puzzle. First 1000 cards have English meanings then later on, the meanings change to Japanese. Since it includes grammar and is i+1, you never have to leave anki to do anything (other than immersion). Also most of the sentences are "informal" although later formality is introduced too.
I did the beginner's deck in ~3 hours, suspending any card that I knew by heart and keeping those that I found
useful. I was amazed that I did not know anything in last 100 cards! I was like "I wished I had found this earlier".
Intermediate was TOUGH. At-least first 100 cards. I was like "I know all the words in the japanese definition, but how do they connect with each other?". After 1000 Intermediate cards, I noticed a HUGE leap in my abilities. I was able to read Doraemon and Yotsubato! with some minor problems. At ~4200 cards (which I am at now), I can watch most of the Shounen anime. My listening still needs practice but my reading getting better every day. My pace is 40-45 cards/day.
After 1000 cards, I started immersing and I can't describe the benefits in words. Regarding immersion, I used to think this:
"Regarding the concepts of active or passive listening used by immersion proponents, active listening is comprehension, passive listening is something you use to convince yourself you're studying Japanese all the time (placebo affect?)."
My views have changed a lot from 3 months ago.
I am in a hurry, so I don't have time to proofread this. Sorry.
A small (success?) story - yogert909 - 2015-08-20
Wow! Thanks for writing this. And good job on your progress.
A small (success?) story - manman2a - 2015-10-04
*Update* End of September: 5000 Total Cards( or 4000 J-J Cards)!!!
A small (success?) story - Dreambox - 2015-10-04
Thanks so much for sharing your process. It really helps people like me who are still trying to find their way, and gives me hope when I start to lose motivation.
Congratulations on your progress! I bet it is a phenomenal feeling and I hope one day to have it.
A small (success?) story - Wovaki - 2015-10-08
manman2a Wrote:"As long as you learn your vocab by drilling sentences rather than just plain vocab drills, and you make sure to keep reading level appropriate materials while you study your vocab, grammar should not be a worry at all."I was a little curious about this. I've been using a vocab deck as well as a sentence deck to learn Korean. I feel like using the vocab deck also sucks up a lot of time, but I feel using just a sentence deck to also learn vocab feels like it would be a bit of an overload sometimes. Maybe you have sentences with even 2 or 3 unknown vocab. Then you have to learn multiple vocab at the same time as well as the meaning of the whole sentence.
-----This is so accurate. Sentences>Vocabulary Alone 100%
What are other people's opinions on this?
A small (success?) story - Zgarbas - 2015-10-08
A *good* sentence pack will follow the n+1 rule (previously learned words + 1 new one per sentence). Stuff like the iKnow/core/Tanuki lists are arranged in this manner to ease learning via practicing sentences. Try finding something similar for Korean; if not, then you can just do vocab and switch to sentences after you've acquired a more decent amount of stand-alone vocab ( I started doing non n+1 sentences around 6000 words and it went great, but I think you can start a lot sooner. Say around 1000-2000?).
A small (success?) story - Wovaki - 2015-10-11
Zgarbas Wrote:A *good* sentence pack will follow the n+1 rule (previously learned words + 1 new one per sentence). Stuff like the iKnow/core/Tanuki lists are arranged in this manner to ease learning via practicing sentences. Try finding something similar for Korean; if not, then you can just do vocab and switch to sentences after you've acquired a more decent amount of stand-alone vocab ( I started doing non n+1 sentences around 6000 words and it went great, but I think you can start a lot sooner. Say around 1000-2000?).I saw your reply in my other thread. Thank you for the advice.
I decided to keep my vocabulary deck, but to start focusing on sentences. I'll continue to review my learned vocabulary deck to keep up that vocabulary knowledge and add new content through sentences.
Maybe once I get more time, I'll actively use both decks. But right now it's too much of a time-suck to do both. D:
A small (success?) story - manman2a - 2015-10-30
Update: 6400 Sentences. I can already feel some bits of fluency!
A small (success?) story - Wovaki - 2015-11-01
manman2a Wrote:Update: 6400 Sentences. I can already feel some bits of fluency!Great job! Reading your post and experiences has been very helpful for me.
I'm currently at 1000+ vocab/500ish sentences. Got some manga sitting around that I can't yet read but really excited to start!
RE: A small (success?) story - manman2a - 2015-12-13
Update: 7600 Cards!
Wow...I am excited because I can actually see progress. I can enjoy almost anything I want and understand unknown from context as long as it's written material. It would probably take some time before my listening gets better.
RE: A small (success?) story - Zorlee - 2015-12-13
Great stuff!
I would really recommend speaking to Japanese people as a way to improve your listening.
When you talk in Japanese, the other part will expect to be understood. This additional pressure is great, as it helps you to focus 100% on what's going on in the conversation, as opposed to watching TV etc., where you're always passive. Now, passive input is great, but using Japanese actively is always better IMO.
RE: A small (success?) story - manman2a - 2016-02-02
Update: 8800 Cards! WooHoo!
I am able to enjoy almost everything Japanese. Technical Vocabulary still give me trouble, and my reading skill is not as fast as my english reading skills (it's only been just over an year since I started learning). I believe I'd hit the 10,000 gold mark sometime in March.
RE: A small (success?) story - manman2a - 2016-05-07
Update : 10,000+ cards!!!
I completely forgot about this post >_> .
Anyways I 've reached 10,000 Anki cards (w/ 9300 Japanese - Japanese). Wow. I have slowed down on adding cards (10-15 per day) as I can't find many to add
. Anyways, this is probably the last update (regarding the number of cards) on this post.
RE: A small (success?) story - Wurstmann - 2016-05-07
Congratulations!
RE: A small (success?) story - kendo99 - 2016-05-07
manman2a, I've been following your progress on JALUP and you are an inspiration sir. It's funny that mention a pace of 10-15 cards a day as 'having slowed down' since that's my default pace. You've moved at lightning-fast speed and it's pretty incredible.
(I'm edubkendo on there btw.)
RE: A small (success?) story - yukamina - 2016-05-08
Congrats! That's some fast progress!