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+--- Thread: Writing Advice (/thread-1294.html)
Writing Advice - zdude255 - 2008-03-24
I'm about 150 frames into RtK1 and I need some advice on what to do about writing. My roman writing isn't exactly great. It's not horrible, (I've seen much worse) but it's not really neat either.
I need to know some tips on the best way to practice writing kanji. Currently I'm using a ballpoint pen on a wide-rule spiral notebook. It's definitely not optimal, but it's usually what I have and a notebook is easy to carry.
Currently, I'd describe my kanji as "legible." (probably not much more) But since I'm going to be writing a lot of characters in this whole process, I'm wondering if I should do something to try to improve my kanji along the way.
Writing isn't exactly a huge goal of mine. (Most of my future Japanese will probably be typed.) But it's always a distraction when something comes out terrible and I force myself to write it better. This can slow progress in the lessons and distract from the stories I find.
What tips do you guys have to help the writing process during RtK1? What worked for you?
Writing Advice - suffah - 2008-03-24
Grid paper really helps with your balance of characters. The wide-rule paper we use here in the states makes it hard to properly balance your characters.
I believe there's a link in the learning resources thread for a downloadable pdf file. I'll see if I can find it.
HERE YA GO: http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?tid=491
Writing Advice - zdude255 - 2008-03-24
I figured this would be one thing. Is it possible to get a notebook of such paper in the US? I don't have a printer in the dorm and the lab's printouts are all curvy at the moment. Also individual sheets are annoying to carry around.
Also, about how big are Kanji normally written? I used to think they were all roughly square, but a lot of the tall ones break this. (Although I know they should still be spaced out the same)
Writing Advice - Jarvik7 - 2008-03-24
If you really want to force yourself to write nicely, you can also use a brush. You can't be lazy with a brush since there it is not a hard point. You have to pay attention to what you are writing and how much pressure you use at what angle, otherwise it just turns into a giant blotch. I recommend the Pentel Brushpen which is refillable and relatively cheap (around $8) with none of the annoyance, bulk, and mess of a traditional brush setup. You can carry it around just like a ballpoint.
A somewhat easier to use pen would be a calligraphy fountain pen such as the Sheaffer Calligraphy (also around $8, refillable, and portable). You can get nice looking kanji with the correct looking variations in line thickness while worrying less about pressure.
Practice with either of these definitely leads improvement in normal writing with a pen or pencil.
Writing Advice - Nukemarine - 2008-03-24
Use a ruler and a pen and make your own graph paper if need be. Not sure if you need to sweat the neatness, but definately keep writing as you review. I think it'll help get kanji into memory. Note that I mean as each word pops up for review, write that kanji down once (not many times). This helps prevent you from cheating yourself thinking you got it right. The evidence is there in front of you.
For legibility, even natives have issues with that. Kanji to Japanese are like spelling tests to Americans.
Writing Advice - shneen - 2008-03-24
I use the kanji practice notebooks that my students use
You can get them online at The Japan Shop or White Rabbit Press. http://www.whiterabbitpress.com/catalog/Kanji-Practice-Notebook-200-Squares-page-p-16138.html
http://thejapanshop.com/product.php?productid=16250&cat=304&page=1
Writing Advice - Jarvik7 - 2008-03-24
shneen Wrote:I use the kanji practice notebooks that my students useAt $1.60+S&H+tax for 60 pages, the 漢字練習帳 are outrageously overpriced. Just go get yourself a pack of normal graph paper. Or print out one sheet of nice kanji practice paper, laminate it, and write on it with a relatively fine point dry erase marker (also eco-friendly).
http://www.whiterabbitpress.com/catalog/Kanji-Practice-Notebook-200-Squares-page-p-16138.html
http://thejapanshop.com/product.php?productid=16250&cat=304&page=1
Writing Advice - zdude255 - 2008-03-24
Thanks shneen, that looks like exactly what I'm looking for.
They're slightly expensive but not that terrible.
I'm considering getting a Sheaffer pen, but they're quite expensive online after shipping. Has anyone else had experience with caligraphy pens?
Writing Advice - Ryuujin27 - 2008-03-24
I was just searching around for the Pentel Brush pens and I found this site: http://www.dickblick.com/zz228/90/
Seems like it's a legitimate site; and the pens are really cheap, too!
Writing Advice - zdude255 - 2008-03-24
How does that compare to this listing on Amazon?
http://www.amazon.com/Sheaffer-Calligraphy-Vertical-Mini-Kit/dp/B000CN9JB6/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=office-products&qid=1206396402&sr=8-1
That site doesn't really describe what "Brush Pen" includes. Would I have to also get 4 refills to match that set?
The amazon listing is a good price, but the shipping is a killer, almost as much as the set.
Writing Advice - Katsuo - 2008-03-25
Last year NHK broadcast a series of 5-minute programs on how to write attractive, balanced characters. I found it very useful, and recommend it.
It's now available as a package of the programs (on DVD) + instruction book + practice book.
Title: 簡単ルールで一生きれいな字
ISBN: 978-4-14-187006-7
Price: 1,400 yen
It's available from the NHK store, and also from bookshops and Amazon in Japan. I'm not sure how to obtain it in other countries.
Note the instruction book is also available separately for 500 yen, but I would recommend getting the version with the DVD, as seeing the characters being drawn is vital.
Note also the DVD is region 2.
Writing Advice - rich_f - 2008-03-25
I have the Pentel pen... it's okay. I prefer the Sailor Profit brush pens. It's a personal preference thing. I bought mine at Itoya in Tokyo, but there's a place in the States that sells them, too.
http://store.nexternal.com/shared/StoreFront/default.asp?CS=swisher&StoreType=BtoC&Count1=394954860&Count2=312095284
I buy the Sailor ink cartridges from them. They ship via Priority Mail, which is fine.
Then again, I have some experience with Chinese calligraphy, so this isn't such a big deal to me. If you're just starting to write with a brush, you might want to find someone who can show you the ropes. Saves time reinventing the wheel, and unlearning improper techniques. (And it takes a while to get non-sucky at it.)
If you're not too interested in calligraphy, though, I'd just use a pencil for now, or go with Jarvik7's idea of the write-on/wipe-off thing. You can learn how to write perfectly well with a pen or pencil. It's how most people in Japan write, too. (I never did see anyone go for an inkstone and ink stick while I was over there to write a note.
)
Writing Advice - cangy - 2008-03-25
Jarvik7 Wrote:A somewhat easier to use pen would be a calligraphy fountain pen such as the Sheaffer Calligraphy (also around $8, refillable, and portable). You can get nice looking kanji with the correct looking variations in line thickness while worrying less about pressure.I do my reviews with a brush pen, and it makes reviews much for fun and interesting if you concentrate on doing the correct stroke types, but you'll need something other than RTK for reference for those.
However, I can't imagine how you could hope to write kanji with a fountain pen -- that'd be like trying to write western calligraphy with a brush...
Writing Advice - dwhitman - 2008-03-25
zdude255 Wrote:Is it possible to get a notebook of such paper in the US?Doesn't address your printer problem, but...
If you can find a printer and run off a big stack of paper using one of the PDF files at Incompetech, you can take the stack to a copy center (I used Staples, but Officemax, etc, all offer this) and get a spiral binding put on the stack very inexpensively. I got 2 100 page notebooks bound for $4.
Writing Advice - yukamina - 2008-03-25
http://www.dickblick.com/zz213/08/
These Sakura brush pens are cheaper than the Pentel. I've used Sakura and Faber-Castell, which are really similar to each other. I haven't used the Pentel, so I don't know if they're better or not.
Mind, I don't actually use them for kanji ^_^; Or at all lately.
Writing Advice - rich_f - 2008-03-25
Do the Sakura and Faber-Castell pens have actual brush heads, or those foam "brush-like" heads? I'm just curious.
I know the Pentel has a real brush head (although I'm not a fan of it), as does the Sailor (which I find I use a lot.) I've been using Sailor a lot, mostly because it's easy to maintain. It doesn't have the world's greatest brush head-- it's a little short to get really good strokes, and the Pentel's brush head, while long enough, is a little thin.
I guess what I really want is a full-sized calligraphy brush that self-inks.
Writing Advice - Jarvik7 - 2008-03-25
cangy Wrote:Despite the name, most cheap calligraphy fountain pens are not calligraphy fountain pens. They are infact italic (stub) fountain pens. You can get presentable kanji quite easily with them since they don't require pressure (but don't produce a mess when you do apply it like you would with a flextip calligraphy fountain pen or a brush).Jarvik7 Wrote:A somewhat easier to use pen would be a calligraphy fountain pen such as the Sheaffer Calligraphy (also around $8, refillable, and portable). You can get nice looking kanji with the correct looking variations in line thickness while worrying less about pressure.I do my reviews with a brush pen, and it makes reviews much for fun and interesting if you concentrate on doing the correct stroke types, but you'll need something other than RTK for reference for those.
However, I can't imagine how you could hope to write kanji with a fountain pen -- that'd be like trying to write western calligraphy with a brush...
I think of it as a halfway point between ペン字 and brush writing, for when you just want to crank out a review quickly. I do all my normal writing, both English & Japanese, with a fountain pen actually (albeit a normally tipped bold one).
On a side note, if anyone has a DS check out the new DS Bimoji Training app, it's the first soft that really teaches you how to write well.
Writing Advice - rich_f - 2008-03-26
Ah, you like the Bimoji app for the DS then? I was curious how that was. I'm always looking for ways to clean up my kanij.
Writing Advice - pm215 - 2008-03-26
zdude255 Wrote:Currently I'm using a ballpoint pen on a wide-rule spiral notebook.Even if you don't go down the whole 'brush pen' route I'd definitely recommend upgrading from that ballpoint. What you want, in my opinion, is a pen which writes smoothly and reliably (and the average cheap biro does neither), with a fine enough line that you can write complex characters without having to make them really huge in order to get all the details in. I like the
Uniball micro personally. See if you can find a stationers which lets you try the pens out, and doodle some kanji with them to see if you can find a reasonable one.
In practice of course you're going to be doing much more writing of Japanese with a pen than with a brush, so it's worth finding a pen that makes it easy...
Writing Advice - rich_f - 2008-03-26
Or just get a good pencil. It works just fine, too, and you can erase mistakes. There's all kinds of ways you can approach this. You don't have to go all out for a brush pen+ special paper. I just use old copy paper to write on. The idea is just to keep producing proper kanji when you see the right keyword. How you do it and on what you do it is just a matter of preference.
Writing Advice - cangy - 2008-03-26
zdude255 Wrote:What tips do you guys have to help the writing process during RtK1? What worked for you?Avoid the default mincho font used here. Use the change font greasemonkey script to change to a brush font. Use the grid feature and gridded paper. Learn about the different stroke types. Check the stroke order, direction and type for each character. Write the character once during review, then compare to the reference looking for differences in proportion etc, then write it again. Use a brush pen if you are interested, otherwise learn how the strokes should look when written with a pen. Watch out for Heisig's oversimplification or misuse of some primitives.
You should be able to find more about all of that by reading the sticky threads in the various forum sections. Hope that helps!
Writing Advice - jbudding - 2008-03-29
I use a Pilot G2 .38 fine gel pen on graph paper. It writes very fine and also can make very fine tapers if you reduce the pressure. Pilot also has a .5 and a .7 gel that write very nicely. I am trying the brush pens from Pentel but so far, I can't use them to wirte very small. Where I was using 4 squares on my graph paper, I now need at least 9 and even then I am having some trouble keeping the character small enough. I also tried the traditional brushes and ink on rice paper. It was fun, although sometimes frustrating, as I could only make huge characters and I am very slow with not very pretty results!