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+--- Thread: Make me fluent, Darling! (/thread-12928.html)
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Make me fluent, Darling! - CreepyAF - 2015-08-06
Has a significant person ever walked into your life that knew Japanese? Maybe a good friend or a boyfriend/girlfriend?
What was your mileage on getting information from them? Were they supportive and helpful, or would they laugh at your poor pronunciation? Was Japanese something that brought you two together, or did it slowly evolve into a bone of contention?
Tell me all about it. Dr. Creep, M.D. would like to do some field research.
Make me fluent, Darling! - yogert909 - 2015-08-06
My wife isn't much help. I think it may have something to do with cultural differences in learning, personal learning styles etc. But yes, if I speak Japanese to my wife, she often fires back rapid fire japanese answers that I can't understand, or criticizes my pronunciation or tells me whatever I said is extremely rude in Japanese. None of which makes me want to speak Japanese with her and I don't feel like I learn anything from the exercise.
Maybe that's just par for the course in Japan. I feel like Japanese culture rewards hard work for hard work's sake and shaming people for not being perfect is how people learn in Japan. Of course I grew up with different values where doing your personal best, faking it till you make it, and 'hacking' is expected. I also think it doesn't help that her and I are both on the far end of both extremes, so how she learns something and how I learn something couldn't be more different.
Make me fluent, Darling! - john555 - 2015-08-06
"Darling"?!
Who are you, Eva Gabor?
Make me fluent, Darling! - CreepyAF - 2015-08-06
yogert909 Wrote:My wife isn't much help. I think it may have something to do with cultural differences in learning, personal learning styles etc. But yes, if I speak Japanese to my wife, she often fires back rapid fire japanese answers that I can't understand, or criticizes my pronunciation or tells me whatever I said is extremely rude in Japanese. None of which makes me want to speak Japanese with her and I don't feel like I learn anything from the exercise.Out of curiosity, is your wife/her side of the family the main reason you're learning Japanese?
john555 Wrote:"Darling"?!Hahah, no no, but I did know her in a previous life. (I'm the one on the right.)
Who are you, Eva Gabor?
Make me fluent, Darling! - yogert909 - 2015-08-06
CreepyAF Wrote:Out of curiosity, is your wife/her side of the family the main reason you're learning Japanese?I'm learning Japanese because:
I've always wanted to be functionally fluent in other languages
I want to understand and participate in my wife's culture
I want to be able to enjoy Japanese TV and movies without subtitles
I visit Japan from time to time and I want to stop feeling like a illiterate idiot while I'm there.
I want to communicate with my wife's extended family instead of staring out the window at family functions.
I am interested in Japanese history and there's not many books written in English.
I must be bored - or a masochist - or both.
Make me fluent, Darling! - EuPcsl - 2015-08-06
yogert909 Wrote:But yes, if I speak Japanese to my wife, she often fires back rapid fire japanese answers that I can't understand, or criticizes my pronunciation or tells me whatever I said is extremely rude in Japanese. None of which makes me want to speak Japanese with her and I don't feel like I learn anything from the exercise.That's so true... When I try to speak the way I speak in my mother language in Japanese I'm told that's rude or inappropriate so at the end of the day I don't feel comfortable at all speaking in Japanese. That's not a problem now as I don't know enough Japanese but I feel like I have to change my personality too much to speak it.
Answering your question: no it didn't help me. Maybe it's an extra motivation but it's pretty frustrating if your level is not high enough.
Make me fluent, Darling! - dtcamero - 2015-08-06
yes trying to learn your significant other's native language when she is already fluent in your language is a fool's errand.
the best way to learn a language is from your significant other, but only if you are better at her language than she is at yours.
no amount of immersion will teach you how to speak (and your hearing will only be so-so). you must have several language partners to learn a language. you must be able to speak with them for hours on end, for years, in a way that would be financially crippling to do with a tutor. this is why romantic partners are the ideal, if not the only, way to learn a language without spending your whole life doing it.
but as mentioned above, if her mastery of english is better than your understanding of japanese, you will forever be doomed to english. trying to speak japanese will slow down the conversation and annoy her at best... at worst she will subtly or overtly mock your attempts and give you negative reinforcement. at the end of the day, she will not become a language partner, ever.
everyone in this forum heed this warning! don't fool around with cute japanese girls with good english! you will never learn to speak unless you find a girl with bad/nonexistent english and figure out how to communicate using what you know. it's awkward and difficult at first but has almost unlimited rewards in the long term. good luck.
Make me fluent, Darling! - jimeux - 2015-08-07
When it comes to not being "rude", I think it just comes with proficiency. For example, the way I've heard Japanese people use "gonna" has sounded rude at worst and stupid at best. In most of those situations, I wouldn't have even noticed it at all if it'd been used properly.
I feel Japanese has a lot more subtleties than English in terms of appropriacy, and it's always better to air on the side of caution until you develop a good sense of the impact your words have. I've been guilty of trying to use a cool phrase I heard in a movie, but if it's out of place, then it sounds anything but cool to natives.
As for the fluent partner problem, I can relate, though it's arguable whose level is higher. I don't speak much Japanese with the g/f unless we're with other people, but she has helped me improve my pitch accent and answers all kinds of questions.
Make me fluent, Darling! - kapalama - 2015-08-07
dtcamero Wrote:everyone in this forum heed this warning! don't fool around with cute japanese girls with good english!Does such a being exist? I have never met a Japanese person who did not immerse when they were young enough, who spoke good enough English to say this about, male or female.
Meaning immersion in the 'deep end of the pool': no one around them speaks Japanese. And so few Japanese people have the opportunity, or willingness, to do this with English. (OTOH, I know Japanese who cannot speak any English who found that simply immersing in Spanish was enough to get them semi-fluent in a matter of months. Which probably says something about how useless the base of English Japanese people are learning is. Unfortunately, Japanese seem to have a fetish for North America, and not South America.)
I am not saying there are no Japanese people who speak good English. I am saying they are rare enough, to not worry about running into one.
(I would also say though, that expecting to learn a heavily male/female patterned language like Japanese from a partner is also not going to be as fruitful as one might hope.)
Make me fluent, Darling! - dtcamero - 2015-08-07
that's interesting... my experience living in nyc and tokyo was that there is a large number of women mostly, with good english, who usually fell into one of 2 profiles.
1) japanese family, grew up in america speaking 2 languages flawlessly... they simply will never acknowledge your level as strong enough to take seriously.
2) japanese living in asia who did college in the west for years... they are the most dangerous, despite having lower english levels than #1. The reason is that they secretly see you as the way to keep their english skills up, and will only passingly acknowledge your desire to use their native language until you demonstrate a higher proficiency level in japanese than their english.
Make me fluent, Darling! - Danchan - 2015-08-07
I made the most progress with Japanese while single. Learning Chinese now while my Chinese GF speaks very good English. I don't need her for speaking practice, because... input. ;-) We can talk when I'm good enough to understand what she says to me.
Make me fluent, Darling! - Tzadeck - 2015-08-07
In the last year I think I made a great leap in speaking ability, since I worked at an elementary school where I generally planned with teachers in Japanese, and I started living with a girl who speaks zero English. It's helpful, but perhaps my most fruitful period of study was when I was studying seriously for N1. So it's not the be-all-end-all of progress.
Make me fluent, Darling! - JapaneseRuleOf7 - 2015-08-07
dtcamero Wrote:yes trying to learn your significant other's native language when she is already fluent in your language is a fool's errand.That is excellent advice.
the best way to learn a language is from your significant other, but only if you are better at her language than she is at yours.
I'd also add that, although you gain the advantage of a language partner, you also inherit the pain in the ass of dealing with another person. So instead of being able to relax and study Japanese, you've gotta argue in Japanese about who's doing the most dishes and why you don't feel the need to hang out the sheets every day. Good luck winning an argument in somebody else's language. Instead of waking up and reading the Japanese newspaper with a cup of coffee, instead I now spend every morning making bento boxes.
So I'm sot sure it's ever done much for my Japanese language ability, but at least I'm a whiz of a little homemaker. Gimme that feather duster.
Make me fluent, Darling! - kapalama - 2015-08-07
dtcamero Wrote:that's interesting... my experience living in nyc and tokyo was that there is a large number of women mostly, with good english, who usually fell into one of 2 profiles.First, my experience is by no means how things are for everyone.
1) japanese family, grew up in america speaking 2 languages flawlessly... they simply will never acknowledge your level as strong enough to take seriously.
2) japanese living in asia who did college in the west for years... they are the most dangerous, despite having lower english levels than #1. The reason is that they secretly see you as the way to keep their english skills up, and will only passingly acknowledge your desire to use their native language until you demonstrate a higher proficiency level in japanese than their english.
#1) is out People who grow up bi, grow up bi, and they code switch so internally that even without thinking they are going to speak English to a non-Asian face. And that's hard to reset, on any level.
The strange part is whether or not they were sent to Japanese school kind of determines where the reading and writing are. Their speech is completely bi, but I have talked to a couple of guys who (for instance) went to American language schools in Japan and then Oxford Cambridge, and prefer to speak English with me, and get their forms in English, because they read it more naturally than Japanese, and yet won't speak English to even fairly decent English speakers who are Native Japanese. And this is just what you are saying: They are not there to be English Conversation School for the Japanese, nor Japanese Language School for the Gwai Lo. In fact they often have no ability to parse where points of difficulty lie in learners from either side because they never 'learned' a language.
The other place I personally see something like this is when I am talking to a Korean in English (not Zainichi, but born and raised in Korea) because not Japanese, and the Japanese staff/other customers just starts speaking to them in Japanese, and they just start talking to each other in Japanese. The Korean person who can travel unnoticed in a Japanese group will identify as Korean to me as a Gwai Lo, but will simply accept being spoken to in Japanese, and speaking in Japanese with a Japaneser.
#2 is where you experiences and mine probably differs due to the nice places where you worked. Most Japanese I work with and/or know are not college graduates. And the customers are coming from Japan, in 社員旅行, or 卒業旅行 and the like. They are not meeting me for business.
In my experiences, outside of the raised bi-lingual groups, and the very few who studied at top level Western Universities, the number of Japanese who can speak functionally are not that many.
It's good to know that somewhere, there are some Japanese who can learn English as adults. But like I said, the only success story I hear about in person is Japanese learning Spanish quickly.
Make me fluent, Darling! - kapalama - 2015-08-07
JapaneseRuleOf7 Wrote:So I'm sot sure it's ever done much for my Japanese language ability, but at least I'm a whiz of a little homemaker. Gimme that feather duster.Do you keep a blog about this kind of stuff?
I would love to hear about, really anything, about how you ended up in where you are. I have absolutely no access to so much of that experience.
Also when you travel, do you go Japanese style with a tour company is only back to visit the folks?
Make me fluent, Darling! - Zarxrax - 2015-08-07
I can also pretty much confirm that having a Japanese SO has not helped my Japanese at all. To be honest, I've not been a good influence on her English either though. We sort of made up our own language that only we know.
Make me fluent, Darling! - REH94 - 2015-08-07
I'd have to agree with what the majority is saying. I went to Japan with beginner-intermediate level Japanese and met my future wife. She didn't speak any English so Japanese became our default language. While we've been together my Japanese skills have gone through the roof without ever really lifting a pencil to study. So yes OP, as long as your L2 is better than her L2 then you can make big progress in your language learning.
Now that we've moved back to North America though, she has been trying to learn English. She has been wanting me to teach her but we haven't made any progress. It's simply too easy to talk in Japanese and too frustrating to try playing charades every time we want to say something. Trying to switch the language in the house, without us both being fluent before the switch, is just not going to happen. So my advice, find an awesome, beautiful girl (or handsome guy) out in the boonies far, far from Tokyo and never look back - if you actually want to speak Japanese at home that is.
Make me fluent, Darling! - kapalama - 2015-08-07
Actually it just sounds like you are being unfair to your wife. She put up with your butchering of her language to get you your language skills, and had to do charades and be patient with you, and she probably never gave it a second thought as to how much 'frustration' she was having to put up with.
You should do the same for her now that she is far away from any support system.
Make me fluent, Darling! - yogert909 - 2015-08-07
kapalama Wrote:http://japaneseruleof7.com/JapaneseRuleOf7 Wrote:So I'm sot sure it's ever done much for my Japanese language ability, but at least I'm a whiz of a little homemaker. Gimme that feather duster.Do you keep a blog about this kind of stuff?
Make me fluent, Darling! - yogert909 - 2015-08-07
kapalama Wrote:Actually it just sounds like you are being unfair to your wife. She put up with your butchering of her language to get you your language skills, and had to do charades and be patient with you, and she probably never gave it a second thought as to how much 'frustration' she was having to put up with.Maybe it's unfair, but it's frustrating for both people trying to get things done in life in a significantly less efficient language. When REH94 was learning Japanese, there was no fallback language, so they had to use Japanese or probably call the whole thing off. But now, they have Japanese established as their easy default language. It's going to take a lot of effort from both sides to shift the dynamic to English.
You should do the same for her now that she is far away from any support system.
Make me fluent, Darling! - tetsueda - 2015-08-07
kapalama Wrote:Actually it just sounds like you are being unfair to your wife.But then again, she has a English speaking spouse, lives in North America and is trying to learn the most useful language ever.
Make me fluent, Darling! - Aspiring - 2015-08-08
In Japan, I believe language learning is perceived differently.
Or they're bad at it. Maybe it depends on the person and their life purpose.
Make me fluent, Darling! - kapalama - 2015-08-08
yogert909 Wrote:But it is entirely doable. (I did it, with my then SO, not that that has anything to do with what other people can do, but. I know how hard it is.)kapalama Wrote:Actually it just sounds like you are being unfair to your wife. She put up with your butchering of her language to get you your language skills, and had to do charades and be patient with you, and she probably never gave it a second thought as to how much 'frustration' she was having to put up with.Maybe it's unfair, but it's frustrating for both people trying to get things done in life in a significantly less efficient language. When REH94 was learning Japanese, there was no fallback language, so they had to use Japanese or probably call the whole thing off. But now, they have Japanese established as their easy default language. It's going to take a lot of effort from both sides to shift the dynamic to English.
You should do the same for her now that she is far away from any support system.
Yes it is incredibly frustrating not to be able to say what you want to say, or not be able to have what you say be immediately understood, but that's kind of part of what a relationship is. Good stuff that also involves some effort.
As I said in the "immersion" thread, there is 'immersion' where one is surrounded by a language but not depending on it for anything and falling back to a language one is capable in.
And then there is actual immersion where you don't get to do stuff unless you can make yourself understood in that language. She has a great, and incredibly rare, opportunity to actually immerse, without the quotes.
And she has every possible tool at her disposal, unlike Americans going to Japan, even.
Any Japanese person has a (maybe questionable) 12 years plus of English foundation. It's not starting from zero. It's picking out the typical Japanese person speaking English flaws (XXX, XX,XXX, and most importantly XXX) and making sure those get worked on. She already knows how to speak and read English on some level.
And she has a bi capable partner who can choose to help her get her there.
Or not.
Make me fluent, Darling! - Tzadeck - 2015-08-08
kapalama Wrote:Any Japanese person has a (maybe questionable) 12 years plus of English foundation. It's not starting from zero. .Don't you mean six? Three years of junior high and three years of high school. There are some prefectures that do some in elementary school, and some people who continue studying it in university, but twelve years is pretty rare (that would mostly be people who had it in 5th and 6th and four years of university). I'd guess the average nationwide is 7 or 8 years of English education.
Make me fluent, Darling! - gaiaslastlaugh - 2015-08-09
REH94 Wrote:So my advice, find an awesome, beautiful girl (or handsome guy) out in the boonies far, far from Tokyo and never look back - if you actually want to speak Japanese at home that is.My fiancee has lived her entire life in Tokyo, and barely speaks a word of English. Huh. Maybe I just got lucky.