Is this normal style? - Printable Version

Is this normal style? - Printable Version

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Is this normal style? - john555 - 2015-07-04

This author I'm reading seems to be fond of constructions like this. Here's a list of what I've had to look up just in the first short story I read and part of another. Is he overdoing it, for some stylistic purpose?

uro uro to suru - to loiter about

guzu guzu to - slowly

para para to - flipping

buru buru to - shiveringly

soro soro to - soon

boso boso to iu - whispering

kuru kuru to - round and round

waza waza - purposely

boro boro to - raggedly

poto poto to - trickle down in thick drops

go wa go wa suru - be stiff

suru suru to - smoothly

Is this normal style? - RandomQuotes - 2015-07-04

Every single one of those expressions is exceedingly common.

Is this normal style? - CureDolly - 2015-07-05

Yes, I was doing the tadoku wide-reading contest last month and I would say I came across most of these multiple times.

incidentally, doesn't para para perfectly imitate the sound of pages turning?

Is this normal style? - ktcgx - 2015-07-05

Compared to English, Japanese makes much more use of onomatopoeic words. In English, they come across as "childish", and we should use the correct verb or adjective to express the concept, but in Japanese, onomatopoeia can be used without that negative nuance we have about their use in English.

Is this normal style? - tetsueda - 2015-07-06

ktcgx Wrote:Compared to English, Japanese makes much more use of onomatopoeic words. In English, they come across as "childish", and we should use the correct verb or adjective to express the concept, but in Japanese, onomatopoeia can be used without that negative nuance we have about their use in English.

It's more the case that onomatopoeia can be directly used as verbs in English. Where do think whistle, scratch, grumble, etc came from?

Is this normal style? - CureDolly - 2015-07-06

ktcgx Wrote:Compared to English, Japanese makes much more use of onomatopoeic words. In English, they come across as "childish", and we should use the correct verb or adjective to express the concept, but in Japanese, onomatopoeia can be used without that negative nuance we have about their use in English.

Exactly. Soro soro, for example can be used in quite formal contexts. It seems to be the polite way to say "(I have to go) right now". It may be a kind of euphemism as I get the impression that its real meaning is "in a little while" but in use, in that kind of context, it tends to mean "now".

@tetsueda that's a valid point. But I have an idea it is the doubled ones that sound especially "childish" to the English ear. I think niko(tto) is likely to be perceived as a "real" adverb while niko niko (essentially the same thing) can be perceived as "just an onomatopoeia".

Probably the reason for this is that doubled words in English, like helter-skelter, namby-pamby, pitter-patter etc. are not regarded as "real" words. I suspect this may be a relatively recent phenomenon. Shakespeare uses terms like hugger-mugger in entirely serious contexts.

Is this normal style? - Zgarbas - 2015-07-06

Yeah, onomatopoeia are way more common than in English, and are used even in semi-formal settings.

Fun story: i went to the hiroshima peace memorial museum and was assigned an english-speaking guide; he was an 80-year-old Japanese man. When he started describing how children were blown away by the blast he started saying 'and the little children go woooosh woooosh (this was accompanied by exagerrated gestures of being blown away) and they died'
I tried hard not to laugh. It was *one* way of softening the blow that the descriptions normally give.

Is this normal style? - ktcgx - 2015-07-06

tetsueda Wrote:
ktcgx Wrote:Compared to English, Japanese makes much more use of onomatopoeic words. In English, they come across as "childish", and we should use the correct verb or adjective to express the concept, but in Japanese, onomatopoeia can be used without that negative nuance we have about their use in English.
It's more the case that onomatopoeia can be directly used as verbs in English. Where do think whistle, scratch, grumble, etc came from?

I'm pretty sure whistle and the others are not onomatopoeia, strictly speaking, but for example, whoosh, bang, clang are.

Is this normal style? - CureDolly - 2015-07-06

Come to that, boro boro, soro soro, niko niko and probably considerably more than half of what get called "onomatopoeia" in English are not onomatopoeia strictly speaking

Is this normal style? - tetsueda - 2015-07-06

ktcgx Wrote:I'm pretty sure whistle and the others are not onomatopoeia, strictly speaking, but for example, whoosh, bang, clang are.

Imo, their etymology are way more interesting than some rigid definition that you might have in your head.

Is this normal style? - RandomQuotes - 2015-07-06

Yes, historically, whistle and many others were imitative sounds [in proto-germanic], however now in modern english, they are not. When people say onomatopoeia, in english, the idea that is that the sounds by itself could be used as a sound effect.

Is this normal style? - john555 - 2015-07-06

Thanks of all the responses.

I guess to my English ears these "double words" sound a bit childish.

There are others, I realized: toki doki, tokoro dokoro, hito bito etc.

Even Latin has them: quidquid (whatever) quamquam (although) quisquis (whoever). When I was a teenager learning Latin I remember thinking these words were "silly".

Is this normal style? - CureDolly - 2015-07-06

interestingly Japanese can use naninani to mean "whatever" and daredare to mean "whoever". Often used when representing in speech the missing word in a test/exercise question, but also sometimes in regular speech. An interesting example of how languages tend to throw up similar structures.

I wonder if other languages find certain regular linguistic features "silly" the way English has come to regard phonic doubling.

Is this normal style? - john555 - 2015-07-06

I've heard English speakers say "oki doki" for "ok". So our hands aren't totally clean either.

Is this normal style? - anotherjohn - 2015-07-06

Some reduplication examples from wiki: hokey-pokey, razzle-dazzle, super-duper, boogie-woogie, teenie-weenie, walkie-talkie, hoity-toity, wingding, ragtag, easy-peasy, bye-bye, choo-choo, night-night, no-no, pee-pee, poo-poo, bric-a-brac, chit-chat, criss-cross, ding-dong, jibber-jabber, kitty-cat, knick-knack, pitter-patter, splish-splash, zig-zag, flimflam

Also topsy-turvy, willy-nilly, shilly-shally ...

猿の尻笑い indeed Smile

Is this normal style? - john555 - 2015-07-06

anotherjohn Wrote:Some reduplication examples from wiki: hokey-pokey, razzle-dazzle, super-duper, boogie-woogie, teenie-weenie, walkie-talkie, hoity-toity, wingding, ragtag, easy-peasy, bye-bye, choo-choo, night-night, no-no, pee-pee, poo-poo, bric-a-brac, chit-chat, criss-cross, ding-dong, jibber-jabber, kitty-cat, knick-knack, pitter-patter, splish-splash, zig-zag, flimflam

Also topsy-turvy, willy-nilly, shilly-shally ...

猿の尻笑い indeed

Don't use Nos. 15 and 16 in the boardroom.

Is this normal style? - CureDolly - 2015-07-07

But I think the point is that English speakers do regard all these as rather "silly" expressions or at least "not real words" whereas Japanese doubled words are perfectly good words on a level with any other words.

It just seems a cultural foible of modern English that its doubled words are considered second-class lexicon.

I suppose the serious point to bear in mind for learners is that when we see a doubled word in Japanese we should not fall into the trap of assuming that it has the same somewhat "trivial" tone that applies to similar words in English.